ASM18 Review and Spoilers: At BENded Knee to the King

[Matt Rat]

I love the schlocky fun of Maximum Carnage. Every time I do a reread, I expect to grow out of it and lose my patience, but so far so good!

It's stupid, but not bad, a lot of things are left hanging and there's some art that looks almost diabetic, I think I liked the last chapter the most, especially Jackal's last words (which trigger the time bomb), I still prefer to think that was the last we saw of Warren, it was fitting that he died trying to save his first Gwen clone.

[Sr. Bungle]

Hell yea, man. Here's hoping!

I love the schlocky fun of Maximum Carnage. Every time I do a reread, I expect to grow out of it and lose my patience, but so far so good!

The heart likes what it likes

I'd be enjoying a lot more if they weren't dragging Ben through the mud and there weren't so many blatant plot holes. I get the tone they're going for but that's not my problem, The amount of PIS is too much.

[TinkerSpider]

I'm not enjoying this run, but I absolutely understand your sentiment. I feel exactly the same about the 90's Clone Saga.

Like, I get every single complaint people have about it being a complete dumpster fire, but I don't care as here comes yet another clone and I am loving every nonsensical page of it!

Over time, sentiment towards the Clone Saga has definitely changed from it being vilified as the worst of Spider-man excesses to a flawed but ultimately fun diversion.

I wonder if, a few years removed, this will be looked upon more fondly as a mindless fun adventure.

The Clone Saga was vilified at the time because readers knew the intent was to replace Peter with Ben.

Since that didn’t happen and we all know the outcome, one can now enjoy the story on its own merits (which contains classic all-time great issues like ASM 400 so the Clone Saga does have lots of literary/storytelling cred).

This? I agree with Pav. It’s inoffensive but it’s empty. It’s just a bunch of words and images, signifying nothing, adding up to an incoherent and tonally dissonant mess.

[Frontier]

Throughout the Beyond storyline I kept routinely posting "Where's Kaine" because you figured in a pseudo-sequel to the Clone Saga, Kaine Parker would have a role in it. Never have I ever believed like I do now that a character really dodged a bullet by being stuck in limbo.

And I don't say this as a jab at Ben Reilly fans either but truly nothing good has come of the poor dude getting resurrected at this point.

Honestly if they hadn't resurrected Ben and kept him around I'm convinced they would've turned Kaine into Chasm at this point.

[Daibhidh]

I won't pretend to have some amazing insight into the issue, like that it's actually the great American novel, cause it isn't: it's a goofy goof-fest with hungry strollers and magic apples.

Out of curiosity, did Thor: Love and Thunder work for you? Because I found that had the same kind of problems people have been complaining about this issue: there were bits we weren't supposed to take seriously that then should have had serious consequences for the bits we were supposed to take seriously.

[Matt Rat]

Since that didn’t happen and we all know the outcome, one can now enjoy the story on its own merits (which contains classic all-time great issues like ASM 400 so the Clone Saga does have lots of literary/storytelling cred).

Also ASM 400 I believe still 'counts' in the MC2 timeline, which gives Spider-Girl credibility

[Sr. Bungle]

Out of curiosity, did Thor: Love and Thunder work for you? Because I found that had the same kind of problems people have been complaining about this issue: there were bits we weren't supposed to take seriously that then should have had serious consequences for the bits we were supposed to take seriously.

Not at all for me, first minute was promising. As soon as Gorr arrived at the garden of his God things started to get bad, when I got to Zeus I almost walked out of the theatre.

Look, I'm all for fun and dark humor. Love me my Gremlins movies and Judge Dredd, this is just awful and making fun of mental problems is just one of the things that I don't appreciate at all.

[TinkerSpider]

Not at all for me, first minute was promising. As soon as Gorr arrived at the garden of his God things started to get bad, when I got to Zeus I almost walked out of the theatre.

Look, I'm all for fun and dark humor. Love me my Gremlins movies and Judge Dredd, this is just awful and making fun of mental problems is just one of the things that I don't appreciate at all.

This is a really good point.

[The Negative Zone]

Just read it. Not much to say beyond painfully generic.

[Alex_Of_X]

Out of curiosity, did Thor: Love and Thunder work for you? Because I found that had the same kind of problems people have been complaining about this issue: there were bits we weren't supposed to take seriously that then should have had serious consequences for the bits we were supposed to take seriously.

It wasn't horrible imho. Just a sliver above mid.

It's been hmmm 4 months since I've seen it, so my memory's spotty. The guardians stuff is fun. Gor's origin was weak--overwrought and melodramatic, where Aaron had handled it deftly. Jane was good, esp the flashback segment. The Zeus scene was COOL: comics Zeus is such a nothing burger, so the assholery was an improvement. I think Gor was scary enough, but everything beside the first fight\B&W fight\the final scene doesn't stick in memory. I don't remember anything pertaining to mental health--would love a refresher!

It's no Ragnarok, that's for sure. Thankfully it's no Dark World, either.

On a scale of 1 to 10, I rate it a slobbering bulldog

What did you think about it btw?

(Sorry to the mods for the extended Thor talk)

[Alex_Of_X]

It's stupid, but not bad, a lot of things are left hanging and there's some art that looks almost diabetic, I think I liked the last chapter the most, especially Jackal's last words (which trigger the time bomb), I still prefer to think that was the last we saw of Warren, it was fitting that he died trying to save his first Gwen clone.

It was a nice touch, yea!

The stuff that sticks with me is Peter telling Firestar to stop--a top 20 Spidey moment imho. Also the Richard Parker\Aunt May\Mary Jane stuff is insanely strong!

On the other hand, is it worth Nightwatch, seeing whom is the visual analogy to getting tasered in your unmentionables? Debatable

(I kid, I kid. That mook's somebody's favourite out there)

I try not to lean too hard into the "this art good\this art bad" mindset. I'm a mortal flesh-lump of limited life experience; too easy to write off Citizen Kane as bad and boring when you're, say, 11, y'know? So, maybe there's something on those Nightwatch panels I'm not seeing. Now, like and dislike, those are primal, clean. Those I can hand off with confidence.

[exile001]

The Clone Saga was vilified at the time because readers knew the intent was to replace Peter with Ben.

Since that didn’t happen and we all know the outcome, one can now enjoy the story on its own merits (which contains classic all-time great issues like ASM 400 so the Clone Saga does have lots of literary/storytelling cred).

Sure, but ASM 400 excluded this is still a pretty recent switch in opinion. It was still considered among the absolute worst well into the 2010s.

I think it's partly nostalgia, the people like myself who started reading with the Clone Saga, but also I'd argue Byrne/Mackie and OMD/BND were far more damaging and less enjoyable overall. And both stem for the same concept of editorial deciding to try to replicate the Lee/Ditko/Romita eras working backwards from getting rid of the marriage.

Like, Byrne got up and said "oh you think the Clone Saga is the worst Spidey can be? Hold my beer." and BND is like, "yeah, what Byrne did but blander and make Peter a deeply miserable and depressing character to read."

This? I agree with Pav. It’s inoffensive but it’s empty. It’s just a bunch of words and images, signifying nothing,

That's kind of my question. When it's not THE Spider-man comic every month will it be far less egregious so people could just kick back and enjoy it. Eventually, you'll have all the voices who are nostalgic as this was their early Spider-man reading.

Or maybe the stink will stick like with Byrne and BND. Only time will tell.

adding up to an incoherent and tonally dissonant mess.

So, Maximum Clonage? Lol.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

A few years ago, I went back to read the 90's stuff, and as bad as a lot of that was, Peter's voice was alright. He still sounded like Spider-Man. Maybe too mopey at times, but I never felt like I wasn't reading Spider-Man.

Spider-Man under BND/Slott/Wells hasn't felt like that at all.

Also, as much as I don't like the Byrne/Mackie era getting rid of MJ, the last issue with Peter and MJ before JMS took over was well done. I doubt that will be true of Wells.

[Matt Rat]

Also, as much as I don't like the Byrne/Mackie era getting rid of MJ, the last issue with Peter and MJ before JMS took over was well done. I doubt that will be true of Wells.

MJ's bits where she splits from Peter are handled pretty tastefully and have a ray of hope to things (she promises Peter she'll come back), but the events leading up to it are pretty bleak, what with Peter thinking entirely about sex with MJ.

[boots]

I think it's partly nostalgia, the people like myself who started reading with the Clone Saga

i do too, but idk how much i chalk up to nostalgia. i mean, almost any spidey comic read during our formative years is going to be powered by some level of nostalgia fuel.

i'd argue there was some great writing during that time and some great characters. and yes, it was vilified online at the time but it was also championed.

there are plenty of storylines that it seems nostalgia can't save and i think there's a reason for that.