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  1. #1
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    Default Cassandra Cain/Shazam vs...

    This is a fun one.

    For those not in the know, in a recent DCeased, Cassandra Cain got the powers of Shazam. Always liked Cassandra Cain, Batgirl. So, let's pit her against some flying tanks. I'm assuming she has the Billy Batson/Shazam power suite, plus Cassandra Cain skills. How much difference does this make when you pair the Shazam power set with someone who actually has advanced fighting skills? (A little? A lot...?)

    Cassandra Cain/Shazam vs:

    1) Wonder Woman
    2) Superman
    3) Thor
    4) Black Adam
    5) Power Girl
    6) Captain Marvel (Danvers)
    7) Gladiator (Kallark)
    8) Supergirl

    That's all I got.
    Last edited by Zagreus; 01-26-2023 at 02:51 PM. Reason: added Supergirl

  2. #2
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Best part about this is that the Cass in this series is original flavor Cass. ^_^

    So, in the series, Cass gets her powers and, without any time to become accustomed to them, effortlessly takes apart someone with the same powerset in about three panels.

    Based on her doing this, and having basically the exact Shazam powerset...

    1) Wonder Woman - Cass wins.
    2) Superman - Cass wins.
    3) Thor - Current All-Father Thor just has too much power.
    4) Black Adam - Cass wins.
    5) Power Girl - Cass wins.
    6) Captain Marvel (Danvers) - Cass wins.
    7) Gladiator (Kallark) - Kallark wins due to the usual reason: he's just too bloody fast.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    Best part about this is that the Cass in this series is original flavor Cass. ^_^

    So, in the series, Cass gets her powers and, without any time to become accustomed to them, effortlessly takes apart someone with the same powerset in about three panels.

    Based on her doing this, and having basically the exact Shazam powerset...

    1) Wonder Woman - Cass wins.
    2) Superman - Cass wins.

    7) Gladiator (Kallark) - Kallark wins due to the usual reason: he's just too bloody fast.
    If this includes Rebirth feats Wonder Woman and Superman are both too bloody fast, Wonder Woman's weapons offer even with her annoying relative lack of skill feats since flashpoint a too big advantage, Shazam's feats since flashpoint are not very good and DCeased is a kind of Elseworlds with lower power levels anyway. Even Black Adam is a bit questionable, but he is also lacking in feats big time. Even if it is the Post Crisis Cassandra Cain she only can win if we limit Wonder Woman's and Superman's feats to after Infinite Frontier or in Wonder Woman's case even after the Sphere of the Gods, because Superman has not done much and Wonder Woman basically nothing in that case.

  4. #4
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    Which era of Cass skills and Shazam powers are we using for this mash-up? Post-Crisis, New 52, Rebirth, some sort of mix, all of them combined or something else?

    Because as Rightoya says, the version from the DCeased mini itself is a bit low on feats.

  5. #5
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    If this includes Rebirth feats Wonder Woman and Superman are both too bloody fast, Wonder Woman's weapons offer even with her annoying relative lack of skill feats since flashpoint a too big advantage, Shazam's feats since flashpoint are not very good and DCeased is a kind of Elseworlds with lower power levels anyway. Even Black Adam is a bit questionable, but he is also lacking in feats big time. Even if it is the Post Crisis Cassandra Cain she only can win if we limit Wonder Woman's and Superman's feats to after Infinite Frontier or in Wonder Woman's case even after the Sphere of the Gods, because Superman has not done much and Wonder Woman basically nothing in that case.
    Fair enough, and I get you on this.

    Really, then, we're down to 'Cazzam has no real feats yet other than casually stomping a similarly powered individual, so the character will be difficult to use in a Rumble'. The only way the OP can get around this is to clarify what feats we can substitute, like Dark Soul#7 notes below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    Which era of Cass skills and Shazam powers are we using for this mash-up? Post-Crisis, New 52, Rebirth, some sort of mix, all of them combined or something else?

    Because as Rightoya says, the version from the DCeased mini itself is a bit low on feats.
    Cass from DCeased is explicitly Post-Crisis Cass taken in a different direction than where she ended up due to DCeased going where it went. If we want to go with 'does not get Post-Crisis Cass's feats', then fair enough.

    I think we're down to seeing what the OP wants.
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 01-26-2023 at 09:04 AM.
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    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  6. #6
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    My take on the DCeased Cassandra Cain is that she IS Cassandra Cain, before the latest DC reboot as "Orphan" or whatever where she got reset. So, yeah, she's classic Cass.

    Let's go Post Crisis Cassandra Cain, gets the Post-Crisis Shazam Powerset.
    Last edited by Zagreus; 01-26-2023 at 10:26 AM.

  7. #7
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Okay, let's run with that (DCeased is pretty explicitly aiming that 'This is Post-Crisis Cass' or the equivalent, given the backstory, the uniform, the timeline, etc, I'm cool with that).

    1. Strength/Hitting Power - Cazzam is going to be as STRONG as Post-Crisis Superman, roughly, but she's going to hit a whole lot harder. At least a chunk of her hitting power came from her skill, and she hit past CBPH due to that. Soooo...she's going to hit harder than Post-Crisis Supes.
    2. Speed - Same deal. Her baseline will be roughly equal to Post-Crisis Superman, if I recall correctly, but...a chunk of her speed explicitly came from her skill (there's stuff in the writing that bears this up - when her skills get thrown off thanks to her losing the body-read, she notes that initially she's moving at half her normal speed and it takes her a while to get used to her situation and approach her normal speed), so she's going to be faster than his normal 'near-light' combat speed. How much faster is open to debate, but faster.
    3. Toughness - Roughly the same as Post-Crisis Superman. No real extras here, probably.
    4. Skill - she's better than anyone on this list. Diana is the only one who really has any claim to at least be close to her.
    4. Special stuff - Body-reading combat precog as normal. Pressure points that work on pretty much anything she can read and hurt, which is a lot. Magical lightning.

    1) Wonder Woman - How is Diana for actual combat speed these days? Cass is up at 'close to light' or at lightspeed if we go with the above.
    2) Superman - Current Clark is likely too much for her; his strength is waaaay past Post-Crisis Clark's. How's his speed and durability these days?
    3) Thor - All-Father Thor still = too much power.
    4) Black Adam - Where does current Adam sit?
    5) Power Girl - Likely gets wrecked, writers haven't been very kind to her in terms of giving her the same kinds of boosts Clark gets.
    6) Captain Marvel (Danvers) - Blitzed and done.
    7) Gladiator (Kallark) - Gladiator still too fast and hits too hard.
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 01-26-2023 at 11:12 AM.
    Why are we here?

    "Superboy Prime (the yelling guy if he needs clarification)..." - Postmania
    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    Fair enough, and I get you on this.

    Really, then, we're down to 'Cazzam has no real feats yet other than casually stomping a similarly powered individual, so the character will be difficult to use in a Rumble'. The only way the OP can get around this is to clarify what feats we can substitute, like Dark Soul#7 notes below.
    I would also say Post Crisis Shazam works best if we already use Post Crisis Cassandra Cain, but yeah that is up to Zagreus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    Okay, let's run with that (DCeased is pretty explicitly aiming that 'This is Post-Crisis Cass' or the equivalent, given the backstory, the uniform, the timeline, etc, I'm cool with that).

    1. Strength/Hitting Power - Cazzam is going to be as STRONG as Post-Crisis Superman, roughly, but she's going to hit a whole lot harder. At least a chunk of her hitting power came from her skill, and she hit past CBPH due to that. Soooo...she's going to hit harder than Post-Crisis Supes.
    2. Speed - Same deal. Her baseline will be roughly equal to Post-Crisis Superman, if I recall correctly, but...a chunk of her speed explicitly came from her skill (there's stuff in the writing that bears this up - when her skills get thrown off thanks to her losing the body-read, she notes that initially she's moving at half her normal speed and it takes her a while to get used to her situation and approach her normal speed), so she's going to be faster than his normal 'near-light' combat speed. How much faster is open to debate, but faster.
    3. Toughness - Roughly the same as Post-Crisis Superman. No real extras here, probably.
    4. Skill - she's better than anyone on this list. Diana is the only one who really has any claim to at least be close to her.
    4. Special stuff - Body-reading combat precog as normal. Pressure points that work on pretty much anything she can read and hurt, which is a lot. Magical lightning.

    1) Wonder Woman - How is Diana for actual combat speed these days? Cass is up at 'close to light' or at lightspeed if we go with the above.
    2) Superman - Current Clark is likely too much for her; his strength is waaaay past Post-Crisis Clark's. How's his speed and durability these days?
    3) Thor - All-Father Thor still = too much power.
    4) Black Adam - Where does current Adam sit?
    5) Power Girl - Likely gets wrecked, writers haven't been very kind to her in terms of giving her the same kinds of boosts Clark gets.
    6) Captain Marvel (Danvers) - Blitzed and done.
    7) Gladiator (Kallark) - Gladiator still too fast and hits too hard.
    Well if we include Rebirth feats Superman is fast enough to do things like this for example:



    , and can take hits like this for example:




    , and Wonder Woman is fast enough to somewhat blitz him to the side over the distance of different planets while also outspeeding some faster than light objects he tried to intercept, can outfight an explicitly amped Supergirl out for blood who even unamped can tip Quintillion lines of code into a special computer as someone blinked for example, and more, and had even as a teenager the obligatory deflecting light with her bracelets feats already, she is basically Post Crisis Wonder Woman on very potent steroids in all regards except skill and Post Crisis Shazam was basically just Post Crisis Wonder Woman with less skill, but what truly seals the deal for me is that she uses her lasso to mess with souls not just once in a blue moon anymore, even to just calm allies like Artemis down now.

    Black Adam on the other hand lacks notable feats even if we go all the way back to New 52, and even his scaling is questionable, he hurt Wonder Woman with his lightning but it clearly did not hurt much and he lost right afterwards, he hurt an amped Ultraman more with it but again lost right afterwards, he did well against Superboy Prime but that was together with Shazam and involved some shenanigans, and so on, i think he would lose even against just Post Crisis Shazam without the Cassandra Cain amp. And you are just right about Power Girl, Supergirl would be a way better choice for this.

  9. #9
    JUST DO IT?!?! Postmania's Avatar
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    Hm, out of curiosity what is the story behind that second one. I assume that's a future clark
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    I would also say Post Crisis Shazam works best if we already use Post Crisis Cassandra Cain, but yeah that is up to Zagreus.
    And you are just right about Power Girl, Supergirl would be a way better choice for this.
    We can add Supergirl (I almost added her, but on a whim put Power Girl there instead. I'll edit the original post).

  11. #11
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postmania View Post
    Hm, out of curiosity what is the story behind that second one. I assume that's a future clark
    Parallel version rather than future, something to do with the 6th Dimension as I recall.

  12. #12
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    There's also the fact that, nice shockwave, but the moon is still plenty intact. Really, I'm somewhat dubious on this being his best durability feat.

    The speed feat is ridiculous, of course.
    Why are we here?

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    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  13. #13
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    There's also the fact that, nice shockwave, but the moon is still plenty intact. Really, I'm somewhat dubious on this being his best durability feat.

    The speed feat is ridiculous, of course.
    That durability feat comes with a container ship full of asterisks and caveats:

    1. It's really not all that great - the moon or whatever is completely intact, there's just a tiny crater on it. I wouldn't put that past what post Crisis Clark can take, much less the planet-annihilating force that is Rebirth Supes.

    2. He's clearly badly hurt by the hit.

    3. The alternate version that smacks him down says that his powers are already fading due to a lack of light. This could mean that we have no idea what such a hit would do to a full-power Supes, but it also doesn't track all that well with... literally all of Supes' feats over the last 40 or so years. He doesn't lose his abilities in weak light in seconds.

    Basically, that's a garbage durability feat.

    The speed feat is pretty good, though it, also, is beset by the fact that we don't really know exactly how long they are taking, nor do we know how smashed the moon is. Are there pauses in the conversation? Like, that could be 30 seconds (I recited the back-and-forth at normal talking speed with no pauses, and it took 31 seconds to the point where progress stops) or 3 minutes or longer... Is the moon dust? Small rocks? Giant boulders? Still great, but somewhat indefinite. It's also likely a LOT better than all of his other speed feats, so it's validity could be questioned.
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  14. #14
    Astonishing Member Captain Morgan's Avatar
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    Reminder that Shazam stopped being "Superman powered by magic lightning instead of sunlight" after Flashpoint. He was no longer painted as an equal to Clark and his power set changed to look more like Thor's than Clark's.

  15. #15
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    [I'm not sure about Gladiator only because I'm not familiar enough with him.

    Wonder Woman is extremely combat skilled amongst the very powerful characters. But normal Cassie Caine (at least Post-Crisis) easily defeats Batman. Now she's got powers that put her on the WW/ Superman level and she's still got all of her skills and abilities. I can't see any of these characters standing up to that.

    It's not 100% clear if Cassie simply has Shazam's speed or that speed plus her own that could already bullet time. I wouldn't say she wins 10 out of 10 but certainly 8 or 9.

    Edit: Sharp, good point about Cassie's speed coming from her combat precognition, so it does keep her relatively as high against superspeed characters.
    Last edited by Powerboy; 02-05-2023 at 10:12 AM.
    Power with Girl is better.

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