Batman: The Brave and the Bold (DCU Batman & Robin movie)

[Frontier]

So does Kyle Raynor, but how relevant is he? Damian is the Robin of the Injustice games, the main Robin in the comics, and now it seems he’ll be the main Robin for the films. If Reeves does Robin it will almost assuredly be Dick. Tim is holding on to the remnants of his 90s fanbase but that can’t support him for long, especially when my generation already prefers Damian in the role. This will only continue that trend of leaving Tim in the rear view mirror.

He’ll never disappear entirely, his new bisexuality means he’ll keep cameoing for rep purposes. Compared to the peak of his popularity when he had a 100 issue ongoing, redefined Robin, and was one of the most popular DC characters? Like Kyle he’ll just be coasting off of nostalgia (and what happens when the millennials age out?).

I mean, Damian has been the main Robin in the comics for a while now and the Injustice games are kind of old at this point yet Tim still keeps getting stuff published or make at least a few media appearances. I don't think Damian appearing in movies is going to matter more because it's not like Tim's current push ousted him out as the main Robin to begin with.

I think we've seen with the current push for Wally or characters like Connor Hawke and Cass/Steph that 90's DC nostalgia isn't completely going away. It all just depends on timing and writers.

[Perfidiously]

I find it funny how often discussions about Damian turn into discussions about Tim's viability as a character.

That being said, I wonder if the movie will do the opposite of including the Batfamily and just have Damian exist? Maybe Robin doesn't even exist, he's just an angry assassin kid Bruce picks up. It could still leave room for Batgirl or whomever.

...well, that seems unlikely, if only because Dick's too popular a character to nuke him entirely.

[Leancarp900]

I mean, Damian has been the main Robin in the comics for a while now and the Injustice games are kind of old at this point yet Tim still keeps getting stuff published or make at least a few media appearances. I don't think Damian appearing in movies is going to matter more because it's not like Tim's current push ousted him out as the main Robin to begin with.

I think we've seen with the current push for Wally or characters like Connor Hawke and Cass/Steph that 90's DC nostalgia isn't completely going away. It all just depends on timing and writers.

Yeah, I wouldn't say Injustice of all things was a good thing for Damian lol.

Those games tell you Damian killed Dick Grayson, took over his mantle and then sided with Superman (the tie-in comics made Damian killing Dick an accident but that's not what Netherrealm intended).

The second game literally starts with Damian disobeying Bruce and killing Zsasz because he is a brat. Also in the dialogues Bruce disowns him, Jason Todd mocks him for being "an accident" and Starfire constantly calls him a murderer.

Anybody who only knows Injustice would think Damian is the biggest ******* in the DCU. Just see the comments of this video, for example.

[Frontier]

Yeah, I wouldn't say Injustice of all things was a good thing for Damian lol.

Those games tell you Damian killed Dick Grayson, took over his mantle and then sided with Superman (the tie-in comics made Damian killing Dick an accident but that's not what Netherrealm intended).

The second game literally starts with Damian disobeying Bruce and killing Zsasz because he is a brat. Also in the dialogues Bruce disowns him, Jason Todd mocks him for being "an accident" and Starfire constantly calls him a murderer.

Anybody who only knows Injustice would think Damian is the biggest ******* in the DCU. Just see the comments of this video, for example.

To be honest I'm curious how general audiences will respond to him.

Like, he's a popular character, but he can be pretty polarizing.

[Vordan]

To be honest I'm curious how general audiences will respond to him.

Like, he's a popular character, but he can be pretty polarizing.

Gunn calling him a “son of a bitch” means he’ll be an arrogant little **** no doubt haha. I’m sure he’ll be quite hateable at first, the trick is winning people over on him over time. Wonder if they’ll have the balls to adapt the end of Morrison’s run and kill him off?

[Morgoth]

Doubtful. Unless they're planning to adapt Bat-Family vs Darkseid story arc.
Morrison killed Damian, because they thought, that he was messing up continuity, and also because they felt obligated to return things to status quo. These reasons don't seem to be a things in the case of movies. And Damian has too much potential to kill him off.

[Frontier]

Gunn calling him a “son of a bitch” means he’ll be an arrogant little **** no doubt haha. I’m sure he’ll be quite hateable at first, the trick is winning people over on him over time. Wonder if they’ll have the balls to adapt the end of Morrison’s run and kill him off?

I'm reminded in the DCAMU where it feels like part of the reason people bristled at all the Damian focus was because he was so unlikeable and hard to root for .

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Doubtful. Unless they're planning to adapt Bat-Family vs Darkseid story arc.
Morrison killed Damian, because they thought, that he was messing up continuity, and also because they felt obligated to return things to status quo. These reasons don't seem to be a things in the case of movies. And Damian has too much potential to kill him off.

It could be a way to end the actor's contract. 21 year old Damian sacrifices himself for the good of others. It's a payoff to his character arc and sets up the next Robin- Tim, Duke, Steph, Carrie, Tiffany Fox, Luke, Jace, Misfit etc.

[bat39]

Putting this here for those who say Tim doesn't have a role:

https://old.reddit.com/r/batman/comm...batman_mythos/



He's bi, but the current writer is doing her best to passively write him as gay......

I read the Reddit thread and agree with most of it actually. Its certainly not my intention to devalue Tim Drake as a character or his importance in the history of the Batman franchise and the mythos.

But here's the thing. Adaptations tend to be based on current pop-cultural perceptions of characters - how popular/well-known they are among general audiences today or how popular/well-known/marketable would they be to general/new audiences if featured in fresh stories/adaptations today.

Consider the JL cartoon. At the time it was produced, Wally West was THE Flash, and Barry Allen's role was of Wally's dead mentor whom he revered but whose shadow he ultimately grew out from. So when it came to adapting Flash to a cartoon, they just went with the simple approach of featuring Wally West and not including Barry. They did the same for GL when they had to introduce him in STAS - they went with Kyle Rayner, the then-current GL from the comics, rather than Hal Jordan (though they pretty much gave Kyle Hal's simpler origin story). It doesn't mean that Barry and Hal were rendered worthless - it just meant that they didn't have much of a role to play in the current DCU, and so the adaptations didn't prioritize them. That changed a decade later, with adaptations like Young Justice and the various DC Animated Films featuring Barry and Hal.

Hell, when Tim was introduced in BTAS (or rather, TNBA), they ignored Jason and had Tim be the new Robin after Dick (with elements of Jason's backstory folded in). This was because Tim was then the current Robin, and Jason was dead and had no current relevance to the Batman franchise.

So when James Gunn is now seemingly ignoring Tim in favor of Damian, he's simply following that time-tested trend. Damian is the current Robin, and had been so for the better part of 20 years now. It makes sense that Gunn would prioritize him. Tim may still be around in the comics, but he doesn't have a particularly unique or distinctive role to play, and doesn't have the 'hook' Damian has (as Batman's biological son) to grab the attention of general audiences.

Trust me, I'd love it if there's an adaptation that can make use of Tim. Had the CW's Batwoman show continued, I'd hoped he would show up there (especially since Stephanie Brown already appeared). And of course, he'll continue to be featured in new DCAU related projects since he's the DCAU Robin (just like Wally's the DCAU Flash).

[Astralabius]

I read the Reddit thread and agree with most of it actually. Its certainly not my intention to devalue Tim Drake as a character or his importance in the history of the Batman franchise and the mythos.

But here's the thing. Adaptations tend to be based on current pop-cultural perceptions of characters - how popular/well-known they are among general audiences today or how popular/well-known/marketable would they be to general/new audiences if featured in fresh stories/adaptations today.

Consider the JL cartoon. At the time it was produced, Wally West was THE Flash, and Barry Allen's role was of Wally's dead mentor whom he revered but whose shadow he ultimately grew out from. So when it came to adapting Flash to a cartoon, they just went with the simple approach of featuring Wally West and not including Barry. They did the same for GL when they had to introduce him in STAS - they went with Kyle Rayner, the then-current GL from the comics, rather than Hal Jordan (though they pretty much gave Kyle Hal's simpler origin story). It doesn't mean that Barry and Hal were rendered worthless - it just meant that they didn't have much of a role to play in the current DCU, and so the adaptations didn't prioritize them. That changed a decade later, with adaptations like Young Justice and the various DC Animated Films featuring Barry and Hal.

Hell, when Tim was introduced in BTAS (or rather, TNBA), they ignored Jason and had Tim be the new Robin after Dick (with elements of Jason's backstory folded in). This was because Tim was then the current Robin, and Jason was dead and had no current relevance to the Batman franchise.

So when James Gunn is now seemingly ignoring Tim in favor of Damian, he's simply following that time-tested trend. Damian is the current Robin, and had been so for the better part of 20 years now. It makes sense that Gunn would prioritize him. Tim may still be around in the comics, but he doesn't have a particularly unique or distinctive role to play, and doesn't have the 'hook' Damian has (as Batman's biological son) to grab the attention of general audiences.

Trust me, I'd love it if there's an adaptation that can make use of Tim. Had the CW's Batwoman show continued, I'd hoped he would show up there (especially since Stephanie Brown already appeared). And of course, he'll continue to be featured in new DCAU related projects since he's the DCAU Robin (just like Wally's the DCAU Flash).

Yeah, when people talk about why Tim is important to the Batman mythos a lot of times what they end up talking about is the situation Batman was in over 30 years ago. But now Dick is on good terms with Bruce again, Jason isn't dead anymore and there is a new Robin. And while Damian might not cheer Bruce up like the other Robins did I think Tomasi's Batman and Robin run showed quite well that Damian being the way he is encourages Bruce to become a more positive person for both his and Damian's sake instead of relying on the child to be his emotional crutch. Plus Tim has been doing this too long to still be considered the rookie and his parents are dead.
Most of the things people mention when they talk about why they liked Tim's stories seem to simply not work with current canon. His hook is gone.

[bat39]

Putting this here for those who say Tim doesn't have a role:

https://old.reddit.com/r/batman/comm...batman_mythos/



He's bi, but the current writer is doing her best to passively write him as gay......

Yeah, when people talk about why Tim is important to the Batman mythos a lot of times what they end up talking about is the situation Batman was in over 30 years ago. But now Dick is on good terms with Bruce again, Jason isn't dead anymore and there is a new Robin. And while Damian might not cheer Bruce up like the other Robins did I think Tomasi's Batman and Robin run showed quite well that Damian being the way he is encourages Bruce to become a more positive person for both his and Damian's sake instead of relying on the child to be his emotional crutch. Plus Tim has been doing this too long to still be considered the rookie and his parents are dead.
Most of the things people mention when they talk about why they liked Tim's stories seem to simply not work with current canon. His hook is gone.

To add to what you said, Damian actually makes Bruce look more emotionally healthy, which flips the usual narrative that Batman needs Robin or he'll go off the deep-end! Here, it's Bruce who needs to reign in his kid who spent his childhood halfway off the deep-end and forge him into a beacon of justice, and not vengeance.

On the larger subject of Tim and his importance, I think we sometimes forget that the narrative of the DCU isn't one consistent story pre-planned by a single author, but something that evolved over time through hundreds, even thousands, of individual creators reacting and adapting to the situation they found themselves and the book/characters/franchise in. There are many iconic stories, characters and scenes which get referenced and adapted over and over again and which acquire a certain pop-cultural significance, but we often forget the original context which gave rise to them.

Take Dick's transition into Nightwing for instance. It's something even relatively casual fans are aware of now, and it's been adapted to other media (most recently the Titans series). We all see it as this great narrative of Batman's ward growing his own wings and flying the nest (or cave), rising out of his mentor's shadow and adopting a new identity to redefine himself. And in-universe, that's certainly true, and its a great character arc.

But the real reason why Dick became Nightwing? It's because he'd become more important to the New Teen Titans than he was to the Batman franchise in the 80's, and the Batman writers wanted to use Robin again - so the solution was giving Dick a new identity and creating a new Robin. Had the Batman writers of the time (Doug Moench I think?) not wanted to use Robin, or had the New Teen Titans not been such a big deal, then perhaps we'd never have gotten Nightwing or another Robin! Of course, Dick as Nightwing has remained a top-tier character, so he continues to be featured in adaptations and today the story of his transition from Robin to Nightwing has become one of those immutable parts of DC continuity, such as it is.

It's the same with Tim - he was created to fulfill a specific need in the Batman books at the time (the need for a Robin, with Jason dead, and Dick now established permanently as Nightwing) and a narrative was created to facilitate this which involved him helping Bruce get over Jason's death. But there are any number of other ways Bruce could have recovered from Jason's death had Tim not come along. And since Tim is no longer as major a character as he used to be, it makes sense that adaptations might not feature him as much as they used to.

[Drako]

Putting this here for those who say Tim doesn't have a role:

https://old.reddit.com/r/batman/comm...batman_mythos/

This quote right here from the link goes directly along with my reasoning of why they may skip Tim to make the development of Damian and Bruce more compelling.

Tim is essential to Batman’s development and the culmination of his character arc: Dick is Batman’s success, Jason is his failure, and Tim is his redemption. Cutting Tim out leaves Bruce’s arc incomplete and prevents him from ever recovering from the loss of Jason or rebuilding his family.

When Damian became Robin, Bruce was dead and Dick was the one that changed the kid for the better. That can't be happening in the movie, they need conflict. We are probably gonna get a Batman that doesn't want another Robin, cause Jason died, to be trusted with his son and now he needs to learn from his previous success and failure to raise this kid right.

[Aahz]

If they have Jason as Red Hood in this universe, the interesting question would be of course if Damian knows that he is alive.

Btw. due to Jason's and Cassandra's connection to the League of Assassins you could integrate them somehow in the movie.

[godisawesome]

My minimum "requirement" for the Batfamily in this movie if I'm to take it as aware of its potential?

- Bruce with a Dick and Jason that had their turns as Robin, with Jason having died or defected to Talia and Dick as Nightwing now.

- At least Barbara had a career as Batgirl, and either still has it, or is Oracle, or was Oracle and is now back in the suit.

- And Damian can't just have an American accent.

My preferred idea for the family?

- We've got Dick, Tim, Babs, and Stephanie on one side, and Talia has Jason and Cass with Damian, and we narrow down the plot a bit into something like Damian being intended as a plant in the Bat family, but end sup deciding to join them and free Cass, with Jason taking it as his cue to leave Talia on his own.

- Damian and Bruce have a contentious relationship, and Damian is envious of Tim being the good little student, but Dick and Stephanie make the effort to befriend him, and its the full experience that breaks Damian's heart with yearning for that kind of family, while Babs remains a more respectable figure in Damian's estimation who he connects with Cass.

What do I expect in a depressed way?

- Either Bruce only partnered with Dick, or there ain't even Dick... and Damian speaks like a regular American kid.

Damian doesn't work for me with Bruce, and Dick and Damian wasn't as cool to me as Damian and Stephanie, and I genuinely think an entire "Brotherhood of the Bat" is the best idea just because that *is* an idea you could expand into all sorts of spinoffs and also provide greater context for Damian with in a really visceral way - there's a greater, arguably untapped context to Damian having a twisted idea of family and his father from Talia and then seeing an entire clan of largely healthy emotional relationships and righteous warriors that Morrison themself didn't really use because of their style of storytelling that I think could really rock an audience's view of the story.

...But I also know that Hollywood, even the nerds in Hollywood, tend to want to simplify stuff arguably too much.

[Frontier]

This quote right here from the link goes directly along with my reasoning of why they may skip Tim to make the development of Damian and Bruce more compelling.



When Damian became Robin, Bruce was dead and Dick was the one that changed the kid for the better. That can't be happening in the movie, they need conflict. We are probably gonna get a Batman that doesn't want another Robin, cause Jason died, to be trusted with his son and now he needs to learn from his previous success and failure to raise this kid right.

Not to mention the obvious drama between Batman being probably classic "does not kill" Batman and Damian being "killing is my first option."