Batman: The Brave and the Bold (DCU Batman & Robin movie)

[nepenthes]

Gunn is well placed to take a non-traditional route and rather than waste time setting up each character just jump in with dozens already running around and worry about back story later. In media res. It’s how it works in the comics. We all encountered a universe with hundreds of people just already there and an assumption we know who they are

The Morrison run really IS a great roadmap - it establishes immediately that there’s an entire LINEAGE of Robins. Dick has “graduated”, Jason is dead (there’s a window to bring in parts of “Under the Hood”), Tim is the present day foil to Damian who is the disruptor of the status quo when the movies begin

Damian needs Dick, Jason AND Tim to work best - they all support his arc in different ways

Introduce Barbara as already disabled and training up Cassandra. Have them in Super Girl or Swamp Thing, wherever they work tonally. The Bat Fam should be all over the universe not just in Batman movies

Do Batman Inc in a TV show. Man-Of-Bats, Ranger, David Zavimbe in Africa, Jiro in Japan…these guys are a WET DREAM waiting to happen in the classic Gunn style

[bat39]

Since Brave and the Bold will no doubt draw on the Morrison material, how about Batman Family members Kirk Langstrom, the Man-Bat Commandos, Bat-Mite, Batman of Zur-En-Arrh, and Dr. Thomas Wayne/Doctor Hurt/the devil? I mean, if we are going to get some Batman Family action out of this, let’s hope we get into some of the real weird stuff.

Absolutely!

I feel like Batgirl depends on if they want it to be a younger Babs or if they want to have her already as Oracle so they can have Cass as Batgirl. That way they have a Batgirl at a similar skill level to Robin.

At least Tim had Gotham Knights. Depending on who you ask...

Dick and Damian were the best team but I wonder if they're willing to commit to Bruce and Damian. I feel like it's 50/50 how much fans actually like them as a Dynamic Duo.

But I don't see them getting rid of Bruce until we at least get to see the new movie Trinity or a JL film with him in it.

Or maybe they'll do their own version of Bad Blood.

Realistically, I don't see why they'd want Cass as Batgirl, when Barbara is clearly the Batgirl general audiences know and expect and she's the main Batgirl in the comics now (something that's been true for over a decade at this point).

Even Bad Blood featured Burnside-era Barbara in a cameo (unfortunately they didn't do much with her after that).

They're going to go with the most easily explainable and popular Bat-family members. Dick Grayson is numero uno there, and his being Nightwing is something that general audiences will largely be aware of (in any case, it's super-easy to say "Robin grew up and became Nightwing" in a movie without having to delve too much into it). Barbara as Batgirl is also someone who can easily be introduced and explained.

If they want to do the 'Under the Hood' story, then bringing in Jason makes sense.

Gunn is well placed to take a non-traditional route and rather than waste time setting up each character just jump in with dozens already running around and worry about back story later. In media res. It’s how it works in the comics. We all encountered a universe with hundreds of people just already there and an assumption we know who they are

The Morrison run really IS a great roadmap - it establishes immediately that there’s an entire LINEAGE of Robins. Dick has “graduated”, Jason is dead (there’s a window to bring in parts of “Under the Hood”), Tim is the present day foil to Damian who is the disruptor of the status quo when the movies begin

Damian needs Dick, Jason AND Tim to work best - they all support his arc in different ways

Introduce Barbara as already disabled and training up Cassandra. Have them in Super Girl or Swamp Thing, wherever they work tonally. The Bat Fam should be all over the universe not just in Batman movies

Do Batman Inc in a TV show. Man-Of-Bats, Ranger, David Zavimbe in Africa, Jiro in Japan…these guys are a WET DREAM waiting to happen in the classic Gunn style

Batman Inc would be awesome as a TV show!

I actually think its way easier to introduce Cass as Batgirl, or even Tim as (Red) Robin, in a Batman Inc TV show than in a movie.

[anakin99]

I think doing a Damon and Bruce Batman and Robin movie is a big mistake They have almost the same personality The only difference one of them has no problem with killing I don't think the Dynamic would be interested enough Damon/ Robin Works better with Grayson Bateman

[Aahz]

The timeline question is an interesting one. It does seem that this is an established DCU (and possibly one that's kind of a continuation of the DCEU, albeit with a rebooted Superman and Batman). Right now, I'm leaning towards the idea that this is a younger Clark, but maybe not that much younger. All we know is that they wanted someone younger than Henry Cavill is now, and Cavill is pushing 40. Maybe Clark is in his early 30's, while Bruce is in his late 30's or pushing 40? Batman's been around over a decade, Superman's been around for the better part of a decade? And the superhero thing has been going on long enough for Hal and John to both be GL's? And for Aquaman, Shazam, WW etc. (grandfathered in from the previous continuity) to be around too?

I also find it a little wired that they want to start with a young Superman but with Buce allready having Damian.

If you do that stuff like Super Sons or New Ten Titans would be really messy to integrate into this universe.

[Aahz]

So, I was thinking about what Bat-Family members will be introduced in this movie. I guess we can definitely say that Dick is obvious lock here, there's no way he won't be there. Jason is probably going to be dead, so they can set up Under the Red Hood storyline for sequel. Barbara is also probably going to be here, but the question is, in what capacity. And if she's Oracle, then I guess there's a huge chance, that Cassandra is going to appear as well. So it's going to be two Robins (Dick and Damian, Jason is dead) and two Batgirls (Barbara and Cassandra). They also can mention Kate.

I don't know about Cassandra, for one there is backround wise a lot of similarities between her and Damian.
Than she is imo not that easy to throw in as side character without really explaining what her deal is. And at least in the comics Steph had much more interaction with Damian and was the Batgirl during Morrisons Run.

I'm also not sure if they do anything with Kate after that CW show didn't went that well, I mean I the comics she is pretty much in limbo (outside of the occasional Anthology Story).

[bat39]

I think doing a Damon and Bruce Batman and Robin movie is a big mistake They have almost the same personality The only difference one of them has no problem with killing I don't think the Dynamic would be interested enough Damon/ Robin Works better with Grayson Bateman

While I enjoy Dick-Damian more than Bruce-Damian, I have to disagree with that. First off, the no-killing rule is a pretty big difference between them! Secondly, I think it also depends a lot on how they portray Bruce. If they go with a well-adjusted Batman who's conquered most of his demons and is in a relatively good place, then the contrast with Damian becomes even starker. In such a situation, Dick's role becomes even more important - he remembers how Bruce was when they first met and convinces Bruce that if he can change, then maybe Damian can change as well.

I also find it a little wired that they want to start with a young Superman but with Buce allready having Damian.

If you do that stuff like Super Sons or New Ten Titans would be really messy to integrate into this universe.

Yeah, I agree the timeline is a bit off, but we still don't know how young Superman is supposed to be, or when that movie is set. So I'll reserve my judgement there.

I don't think New Teen Titans should be much of an issue though. And even with Super Sons (assuming they even want to go there), Jon Kent is a character who has a messed up timeline as a literal part of his backstory!

I'm also not sure if they do anything with Kate after that CW show didn't went that well, I mean I the comics she is pretty much in limbo (outside of the occasional Anthology Story).

I can see Kate getting her own solo film down the line, perhaps first being introduced in a Batman film.

[Aahz]

I don't think New Teen Titans should be much of an issue though.

If Batman would be again the only older Hero like in the DCEU, there would simply be no other sidekicks of Dick's age.
Of course we don't know how the exact ages are in the new Universe but in the "Snyderverse" Dick would have been iirc pretty close to Superman in age (and likely older than Barry Allen) if had been consistent with their timeline.

[bat39]

If Batman would be again the only older Hero like in the DCEU, there would simply be no other sidekicks of Dick's age.
Of course we don't know how the exact ages are in the new Universe but in the "Snyderverse" Dick would have been iirc pretty close to Superman in age (and likely older than Barry Allen) if had been consistent with their timeline.

In the Snyderverse, Dick was dead :O

When it comes to New Teen Titans, it really depends on who they want to have. Let's say they go with the 'classic' lineup, which is the one everyone knows from the cartoons. So you've got Nightwing already. Starfire can easily be introduced at any point, as can Raven and Beast Boy. As can Cyborg too, especially since we'll be getting a rebooted Cyborg (unless Gunn plans to welcome even Ray Fisher back into the fold, which I doubt!) So what's the problem?

Also they've already said this is a universe where heroes have been around a while. Momoa's Aquaman and Gadot's Wonder Woman could potentially exist (or at any rate, the characters could anyway). So it's not that sidekicks can't exist. But yeah, there might be a situation where some of them have been around longer than Superman...

This is not a new situation by any means. Consider the DCAU. Batman was already around a decade at least in-universe by the time Superman and the rest of the League heroes showed up. Dick became Nightwing roughly around the same time as Clark debuted as Superman.

And then there was the weird situation after COIE where Superman was a relatively new hero, but the New Teen Titans already existed (because he'd been rebooted and they and most of the rest of the DCU hadn't been).

[Frontier]

Realistically, I don't see why they'd want Cass as Batgirl, when Barbara is clearly the Batgirl general audiences know and expect and she's the main Batgirl in the comics now (something that's been true for over a decade at this point).

Even Bad Blood featured Burnside-era Barbara in a cameo (unfortunately they didn't do much with her after that).

They're going to go with the most easily explainable and popular Bat-family members. Dick Grayson is numero uno there, and his being Nightwing is something that general audiences will largely be aware of (in any case, it's super-easy to say "Robin grew up and became Nightwing" in a movie without having to delve too much into it). Barbara as Batgirl is also someone who can easily be introduced and explained.


If they want to do the 'Under the Hood' story, then bringing in Jason makes sense.

I just think Oracle you have a built-in history there and an easy to understand character function since they'll be jumping ahead instead of jumping her into being a rookie Batgirl alongside Damian as Robin (and it lets them do Dick and Babs as a romance unless they do him and Starfire in the movies) and lets you use a more diverse Batgirl. It's a similar situation to using Damian in this instance.

I don't know if they'll adapt Under the Red Hood but I think there's a chance they'll establish there was a second Robin unlike the DCAMU.

While I enjoy Dick-Damian more than Bruce-Damian, I have to disagree with that. First off, the no-killing rule is a pretty big difference between them! Secondly, I think it also depends a lot on how they portray Bruce. If they go with a well-adjusted Batman who's conquered most of his demons and is in a relatively good place, then the contrast with Damian becomes even starker. In such a situation, Dick's role becomes even more important - he remembers how Bruce was when they first met and convinces Bruce that if he can change, then maybe Damian can change as well.

They can only improve from Son of Batman .

In the Snyderverse, Dick was dead :O

When it comes to New Teen Titans, it really depends on who they want to have. Let's say they go with the 'classic' lineup, which is the one everyone knows from the cartoons. So you've got Nightwing already. Starfire can easily be introduced at any point, as can Raven and Beast Boy. As can Cyborg too, especially since we'll be getting a rebooted Cyborg (unless Gunn plans to welcome even Ray Fisher back into the fold, which I doubt!) So what's the problem?

Also they've already said this is a universe where heroes have been around a while. Momoa's Aquaman and Gadot's Wonder Woman could potentially exist (or at any rate, the characters could anyway). So it's not that sidekicks can't exist. But yeah, there might be a situation where some of them have been around longer than Superman...

This is not a new situation by any means. Consider the DCAU. Batman was already around a decade at least in-universe by the time Superman and the rest of the League heroes showed up. Dick became Nightwing roughly around the same time as Clark debuted as Superman.

And then there was the weird situation after COIE where Superman was a relatively new hero, but the New Teen Titans already existed (because he'd been rebooted and they and most of the rest of the DCU hadn't been).

I miss Batman and Superman being closer in experience level and being more equal peers.

[PurpleGlovez]

And then there was the weird situation after COIE where Superman was a relatively new hero, but the New Teen Titans already existed (because he'd been rebooted and they and most of the rest of the DCU hadn't been).

This was never the case. Byrne's Man of Steel mini was explicitly set in the past with Superman having always been the founding member of the modern age of heroes. You might be thinking of Wonder Woman, who for a time did have her origin bumped up to be contemporary with post-Crisis events.

[bat39]

I just think Oracle you have a built-in history there and an easy to understand character function since they'll be jumping ahead instead of jumping her into being a rookie Batgirl alongside Damian as Robin (and it lets them do Dick and Babs as a romance unless they do him and Starfire in the movies) and lets you use a more diverse Batgirl. It's a similar situation to using Damian in this instance.

I don't know if they'll adapt Under the Red Hood but I think there's a chance they'll establish there was a second Robin unlike the DCAMU.

They can only improve from Son of Batman .

I miss Batman and Superman being closer in experience level and being more equal peers.

Barbara doesn't have to be a 'rookie' Batgirl though. She can be an established Batgirl, the way she is in current continuity. Frankly, even if she's a rookie Batgirl, its not an issue - especially if there's a slim chance that this is going to be a continuity where Superman is a rookie starting out maybe a couple of years before Damian becomes Robin!

I'm pretty sure 'diversity' isn't the reason why they're choosing to skip ahead to Damian.

This was never the case. Byrne's Man of Steel mini was explicitly set in the past with Superman having always been the founding member of the modern age of heroes. You might be thinking of Wonder Woman, who for a time did have her origin bumped up to be contemporary with post-Crisis events.

Yeah, I am oversimplifying a bit. Superman was supposed to be the start of the modern age of heroes in Post-COIE continuity. But there was this weird period of time early in the Post-COIE era where Superman was about three years into his career (as per the internal chronology of MOS) but somehow 'synced up' with the rest of the present-day DCU. So Superman was still a fairly inexperienced hero who was encountering the likes of Metallo and Toyman and the rest of his iconic rogues for the first time and who had only recently learnt about Krypton, while simultaneously the New Teen Titans existed and Batman was on his second Robin.

Early Post-COIE chronology is generally a bit wonky, as they were still figuring things out. There's a Batman issue from that time where Dick, as Nightwing, claims that his time with the OG Teen Titans happened after he broke away from Batman, a mere 18 months ago!

[Serpico Jones]

Bill “Jett” Ramey from Batman on Film strongly hinting that Ben Affleck will direct The Brave and the Bold.

[Holt]

This was never the case. Byrne's Man of Steel mini was explicitly set in the past with Superman having always been the founding member of the modern age of heroes. You might be thinking of Wonder Woman, who for a time did have her origin bumped up to be contemporary with post-Crisis events.

They may be confused because even though Superman was still established as having been around at the time, he was removed from the Justice League's origin as a founder.

[Frontier]

Barbara doesn't have to be a 'rookie' Batgirl though. She can be an established Batgirl, the way she is in current continuity. Frankly, even if she's a rookie Batgirl, its not an issue - especially if there's a slim chance that this is going to be a continuity where Superman is a rookie starting out maybe a couple of years before Damian becomes Robin!

I guess it depends on whether they feel recognizability is more important with Batgirl than it is Damian (or that Babs deserves another shot after her solo film got canned) and that Babs is better suited in the movies as Batgirl rather than Oracle and how that also expands the Batfamily.

I'm pretty sure 'diversity' isn't the reason why they're choosing to skip ahead to Damian.

But it probably doesn't hurt!

[bat39]

They may be confused because even though Superman was still established as having been around at the time, he was removed from the Justice League's origin as a founder.

Yeah, it was a confusing situation, arising from the fact that Superman and Wonder Woman were, at least initially, the only ones getting a hard reboot, and in the case of WW, her reboot was set in the present-day.

With Superman, Byrne has said that his original plan was for MOS to be a 'Year One'-style story (not that the term was in vogue yet ) showing a rookie Superman. The relaunched Superman series would then skip ahead to the present-day, and some of the Pre-COIE Superman stories would be incorporated into the new continuity and be set in the interim (essentially the approach taken to 'soft rebooting' Batman).

But DC told Byrne that MOS needed to lead directly into the relaunched Superman series. So Byrne was forced to have MOS cover years of Superman's career (three years as per the internal chronology of the story), which led to a weird situation where Superman basically spent years not knowing about Krypton or fighting any of the iconic villains (apart from a run-in with Lex, and one fight with Bizarro). And the relaunched Superman series, which picks up right after the last issue of MOS, has Superman in the present-day DCU, alongside the likes of the New Teen Titans. And Superman's past history with the larger DCU, including his JLA membership, was retroactively erased.

I dunno if during the Post-COIE era DC ever got around to addressing this 'gap' they created in Superman's career. His JLA membership was restored, so there's that.

I guess it depends on whether they feel recognizability is more important with Batgirl than it is Damian (or that Babs deserves another shot after her solo film got canned) and that Babs is better suited in the movies as Batgirl rather than Oracle and how that also expands the Batfamily.

But it probably doesn't hurt!

I don't think the Batgirl film was canned because Barbara Gordon isn't viable as a character. Barbara remains the only Batgirl that general audiences would be aware of.

On the subject of Damian, I really don't see him as the poster-boy for diversity. First off, Talia and Ra's themselves are pretty racially ambiguous, and Talia herself is more often than not presented as mostly Caucasian. Damian is often depicted as basically mini-Bruce in the comics as well (and in animation). The hook of Damian as a character is him being Batman's biological son raised as an assassin...not him being the mixed-race Robin. I mean, frankly, I don't think any character should be defined by their race, but with, say, Jace Fox, you can make the stronger case for him being the 'black Batman' because that's how he's basically marketed.