How to restore Jor-El from the Circle mess?

[JAK]

I would like to think the idea to finish the Oz/Jor-El plot was going to be in that direction. Jurgens likes the characters and maybe he wors many times in the confort zone, but he delivers and I think he could had accomplished that. But then another writer, with more fame than talent had to came woith a Jor-El who always was corrupt. What a great idea. (Italics to be read in a sarcastic mode, please).

Yeah - Dan is such a "put the toys back in the box at the end of the day" kinda storyteller, I'd be 99% comfortable to bet money on that being the outcome if he'd been left alone to finish the story.

Also agreed on Bendis, even if I did like his "voice" for Clark himself.

[Thor-Ul]

Retcon Mr. Oz as being Kru-el.

https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Kru-El_(Earth-One)

https://youngjustice.fandom.com/wiki/Kru-El

Or make Mr. Oz a resident of Flashpoint Earth. His son's imprisonment made him cynical of humanity but he had skeletons in his closet way before Krypton exploded.

Well, Flashpoint Jor-El was really a duplicious bad guy. That last idea could work.

[Stanlos]

In the last series the figure of Jor-El was twisted from a resigned scientist who wanted to save his son and transformed in a indiferent conspirator willing to hide planetary genocides for the greatest good. As many of the aspects of the previous run are being undone, how would you restore the reputation of Jor-El as the heroic father of Superman?

It broke my brain to read this post talking about Jor El. As in Jor El of Krypton. Jor El of the House of El Jor El. Like Superman's male genetic contributor.

How is this a thing when he has been dead for like ....EVER??? What I miss?

[Thor-Ul]

What I miss?

Most of Bendis run of Superman, it seems. You, lucky bastard. I envy you.

[Stanlos]

The more I read here the more I think the AH! covers and Reis art might have been the only positives of that run.

[exile001]

It broke my brain to read this post talking about Jor El. As in Jor El of Krypton. Jor El of the House of El Jor El. Like Superman's male genetic contributor.

How is this a thing when he has been dead for like ....EVER??? What I miss?

This is from memory so maybe someone can fill in a few gaps.

A shady figure stalked various DC comics abducting people, notably Doomsday and Tim Drake (Robin). Eventually we saw that they were being kept in a vague sci-fi nowhere place and Tim (with the help of an alternate future Tim) escaped (while fighting Doomsday! Lol).

Eventually, this person started causing global disasters for Superman to help with, then revealed himself to be Jor-El who... had some weird point to prove about Clark being good is actually bad? Wanting Clark to join him for... something? I have no idea what Jurgens was going for.

Turns out that as Krypton was exploding a force* (Dr Manhattan because this was supposed to tie into Doomsday Clock before being completely dropped) saved Jor-El for vague reasons and he went to Earth for vague reasons. I think the bottom line is he's mad now but wants to save his son.

So, Superman turns him down and that's that.

At the start of Bendis' run he rocks up out of nowhere and offers to take Jon because reasons. Superman says no, because his father is now a murderous lunatic, but the family they decide it is a good idea somehow. Lois goes with but [insert missing plot here] is now back on Earth, while crazy Jor-El's ship is attacked and Jon ends up tortured on Earth 3 for years.

Then Jor-El shows up again and the Galactic Council immediately send him back to the death of Krypton where he dies.

It was a stupid idea that went stupid places. Then it abruptly ended.

While I'll never agree bringing back Jor-El is a good idea, the fact that they botched it SO badly is just laughable to me. Like, that is a huge move to make, Superman's literal father back from the dead and coming for his son, and they had no fixed plan, no end point and it just fizzled to nothing.

*Bonus Bendis fact, he set up a new big bad who probably destroyed Krypton (and a bunch of other planets) because reasons and that was built for a year, with Superman beating the guy twice, and then completely dropped without resolution. Lol!

[JAK]

This is from memory so maybe someone can fill in a few gaps.

A shady figure stalked various DC comics abducting people, notably Doomsday and Tim Drake (Robin). Eventually we saw that they were being kept in a vague sci-fi nowhere place and Tim (with the help of an alternate future Tim) escaped (while fighting Doomsday! Lol).

Eventually, this person started causing global disasters for Superman to help with, then revealed himself to be Jor-El who... had some weird point to prove about Clark being good is actually bad? Wanting Clark to join him for... something? I have no idea what Jurgens was going for.

Turns out that as Krypton was exploding a force* (Dr Manhattan because this was supposed to tie into Doomsday Clock before being completely dropped) saved Jor-El for vague reasons and he went to Earth for vague reasons. I think the bottom line is he's mad now but wants to save his son.

So, Superman turns him down and that's that.

Almost... from the Villains.Fandom wiki:

Ultimate Fate
after a heated argument on their differing ethics and worldviews, Superman and Jor-El engaged in physical combat, with Jor-El striking down his own son using his green kryptonite eye-beam: an act that Superman found repulsive and called him on, this seemed to shock Jor-El long enough for Superman to grab his staff and break it.

Upon having his staff broken Jor-El reverted to his true self and became deeply remorseful, he explained the staff was keeping him alive but at the cost of his sanity, he begged his son's forgiveness and promised he had always loved him - just as a powerful blue energy spirited him away, with Superman pursuing but being overpowered: Jor-El's fate is unknown (at this point) but it is likely Manhattan has plans to revert him back to Mister Oz (or simply erase him).

At the start of Bendis' run he rocks up out of nowhere and offers to take Jon because reasons. Superman says no, because his father is now a murderous lunatic, but the family they decide it is a good idea somehow. Lois goes with but[/QUOTE]

[insert missing plot here]: If I recall correctly, things with Jor and Jon go surprisingly well, so well that Lois decides that it's ok for her to go home. That's why Lois

is now back on Earth, while crazy Jor-El's ship is attacked and Jon ends up tortured on Earth 3 for years.

Then Jor-El shows up again and the Galactic Council immediately send him back to the death of Krypton where he dies.

It was a stupid idea that went stupid places. Then it abruptly ended.

While I'll never agree bringing back Jor-El is a good idea, the fact that they botched it SO badly is just laughable to me. Like, that is a huge move to make, Superman's literal father back from the dead and coming for his son, and they had no fixed plan, no end point and it just fizzled to nothing.

*Bonus Bendis fact, he set up a new big bad who probably destroyed Krypton (and a bunch of other planets) because reasons and that was built for a year, with Superman beating the guy twice, and then completely dropped without resolution. Lol!

Agreed, for the most part. Jurgens clearly had an endgame, but Didio just didn't care enough about finishing a story and brought Bendis in as an anniversary announcement. At the very least, you'd think they'd have let Jurgens tie up the story he was trying to tell, but nope!

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Well, Flashpoint Jor-El was really a duplicious bad guy. That last idea could work.

It's a trend then. Flashpoint had shifty parents lol.

[dornwolf]

Wasn’t this at the same time that King had Flashpoint Batman rocking around as well. As much as I didn’t like evil Jor-el there was a story with that team up there

[exile001]

Wasn’t this at the same time that King had Flashpoint Batman rocking around as well. As much as I didn’t like evil Jor-el there was a story with that team up there

The Saga of the Super-Dads! World's Farthest*!

*because both fathers and come from far away

[exile001]

Agreed, for the most part. Jurgens clearly had an endgame, but Didio just didn't care enough about finishing a story and brought Bendis in as an anniversary announcement. At the very least, you'd think they'd have let Jurgens tie up the story he was trying to tell, but nope!

It was apparent for a while that Didio had completely lost control of DC, was taking more and more terrible advice, and ended up constantly just throwing s**t at the wall in hopes that something would stick. So glad 5G was the last straw. DC isn't in good shape now, but it's a hell of a lot better than it would have been had it cast off most of its readers by replacing all the characters we like.

I find Bendis at DC absolutely fascinating. If I had a access to interview the key players I'd write a book on it.

That said, I still don't think Jurgens was the writer to tell that story. I know his return gets a lot of love here but I didn't think that run was anything more than a safe pair of hands. Comfy and familiar, sure, but I usually want something new and/or interesting.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Wasn’t this at the same time that King had Flashpoint Batman rocking around as well. As much as I didn’t like evil Jor-el there was a story with that team up there

I'm surprised they didn't use Hippolyta this way. Lol

The Saga of the Super-Dads! World's Farthest*!

*because both fathers and come from far away

That might've been cool.

[Bruce Wayne]

Agreed, for the most part. Jurgens clearly had an endgame, but Didio just didn't care enough about finishing a story and brought Bendis in as an anniversary announcement. At the very least, you'd think they'd have let Jurgens tie up the story he was trying to tell, but nope!

Didio was obsessed with 5G and didn't care about what King (on Batman) or Jurgens/Tomasi were doing on the Superbooks or letting them finish.

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/tom-...an-100-issues/
https://i.imgur.com/hjT4w4M.png

I think it's also pretty clear somebody high up at DC was making promises to Tomasi/Gleason and also King about a 100 issue run on their books (maybe Pat McCallum?). And Didio clearly didn't agree and was going to blow everything up with Bendis and 5G.

I think he may have been disappointed with the tpb sales on Rebirth, which lead to the ouster of Jurgens/Tomasi on the Superbooks.

[Ascended]

Others already said what I was going to; the easiest solution is hypertime/alternate universe. The Oz version of Jor-El and the galactic Illuminati he worked with came from a hypertime variant or the multiverse, and I love the idea of making this the Flashpoint Jor-El because that's just so f*cking fitting. I'd also be cool with it being the earth-3 version, though the details there wouldn't mesh unless we say the whole thing was a convoluted plot by Ultraman and his father.

The entire story, from Geoff Johns who started it all up through Bendis who finally ended it, was awful. Jor never should have returned in the first place, Johns bailed before properly establishing the set-up (something he always does with Clark, part of why I hate him on the character), Jurgens didn't fully resolve it and only complicated an already bad "mystery" and Bendis must have been suffering temporary insanity when he cooked up everything with the space illuminati and Rogal Zar.

I don't actually have a problem with Bendis doing the "crazy grandpa who shouldn't still be driving takes the boy on a summer road trip and they get in a car accident" story. Everybody bitches and whines about that story (mostly because it ages up Jon) but when you boil it all down, that's all it was; grandpa and boy get in a wreck. It's just Morrison's "real life cranked up to 11" approach, only with really bad execution. But insofar as any of it does, the bare bones concept works and is in-character for the Kents (they let Jon do worse with less supervision all the time!). But Jor never should've returned in the first place and the whole thing was so wrong-headed from start to finish that I'll never understand how anyone thought it was worth publishing. I loved Jurgens back in the day, and I love Bendis' voice on Clark, but all the Jor stuff was a huge miss from all involved.

I'm perfectly fine never mentioning it again. Yes it's connected to Jon's age up so it's just an elephant in the room, but it's simply not worth mentioning. Jon got lost in space/time for seven years, the details aren't important. But if it must be addressed, just say "hypertime/Flashpoint" and call it a day.

Other than Jon's age up, the only other thing Jor-Oz touches on is the creation of the United Planets. But Krypton's destruction and El heroism can still serve as the motivation behind the UP's formation. DC has certainly touched on the Oans allowing the planet and its people to die and how that squares with the rest of the galaxy, the UP could just grow out of that discussion instead of the illuminati.

[Quinlan58]

I'm just going to say that Jor-El doing morally shady stuff is perfectly in-character for the dude who proposed the Phantom Zone as a way to punish Krypton's criminals. Yes, I'm aware some stuff, like the recent World of Krypton mini, has tried to place the responsibility of that away from him, but that remains second most iconic thing about Jor-El, his biggest impact on the mythos besides Kal-El himself.

However, he still shouldn't have come back, Jurgens did terrible with the whole Mr Oz deal, Bendis did terrible with the whole Illuminati deal, and now the only reason to keep it into continuity is as a reason for Jon to have gotten stuck in Earth-3.

And yes, making Mr Oz the Jor-El of the Flashpoint continuity sounds absolutely hilarious and fitting.