Were we robbed of the best Apocalypse arc (possible spoilers)

[DarkKnight85]

I don't know about you guys, but I always found Rick Remender's work on Uncanny X Force and Uncanny Avengers to be some of the best modern X-Men stuff we've ever gotten. It's interesting how he had his core theme of nature vs nurture and while never really loosing focus of that theme, kept finding ways to use the story and characters to keep challenging that idea, obviously with the character of Apocalypse at the center of it. We had the Apocalypse Solution which eventually transformed into the story with Evan, we had the internal battle with Archangel, we had the story between Wolverine and Daken, the Apocalypse Twins themselves and their relationship with Kang. I'm probably missing a few.

But anyways, with both comic runs having involved Apocalypse so heavily, I always wondered if the story was meant to directly involve him in a different way and to where he was finally, physically in the story. I'm not sure if I'm remembering right, but I know Remender did Axis and it wasn't incredibly well received I don't think. But I also think I remember Remender not being happy about having to stop his run and expand it into a main event type of thing. Then shortly after Axis, Uncanny Avengers kind of got rebooted and it looked like he was forced to incorporate characters that he necessiarly didn't want, possible due to Marvel Cinematic Universe pressure. It all just ultimately ended with him leaving.

I just wonder where the rest of his story was going, because god damn was that run good. And I think it would have been strange to have all that build up and usage of Apocalypse and never finally get to him. But then again, the physical appearance of Apocalypse was never really the point, so it could go either way. I've always been bitter though that Remender left. the whole Uncanny X force and Uncanny Avengers is one of the few runs I always go back and re-read. A lot of stories, even the ones I enjoy, I don't always do that. But Remender and Opena was like god tier. The only other run that felt similar in terms of impact and quality to me is the Donny Cates run on Venom. Same type of deal, except he really got to finish what he wanted. At least I think he did.

[bishop66]

people have no idea how awesome remenders x-men was going to be...besides being stolen by the avnegrs office for uncanny avengers all the blame for him not doing his massive x-men storyline was because of the idiot loser inhumans and all writers at that time being forced to point all their stories to them

[Krakoa]

people have no idea how awesome remenders x-men was going to be...besides being stolen by the avnegrs office for uncanny avengers all the blame for him not doing his massive x-men storyline was because of the idiot loser inhumans and all writers at that time being forced to point all their stories to them

Eh, from reading his Uncanny Avengers I don’t think his work would translate well to the flagship at all.

[DarkKnight85]

Yea that's what I remember as well. Lot of MCU, Avenger, and Inhuman pressure coming at him that like thwarted everything. I believe it was also at a delicate time where Fox still owned the X-men rights and Disney/MCU were sabotaging the X-Men in general. I remember in the rebooted Uncanny Avengers, they retconned right away that Quick Silver and Scarlet Witch were not the real children of Magneto, and I hated that the minute I found out. I don't believe for a second that Remender wanted that. If it's all true, it's such a shame because that run was something else. I wonder how long he could have kept the quality though without opening up and including other themes. Like I said earlier, I was amazed he was able to stick to his one central theme and yet keep that theme going in engaging and meaningful ways. He kept the idea strong and used a lot of different characters to strengthen his story telling just on that nature vs nurture. It was great work!

[DarkKnight85]

Eh, from reading his Uncanny Avengers I don’t think his work would translate well to the flagship at all.

Well keep in mind, I don't even know if he originally even wanted to the Avengers involved at all or if it was forced on him. Either way, I still enjoyed how he brought over those story telling elements and basically adapted and continued on in the best way he could. Seems like he was never really allowed to have full control.

I always thought if I ever met him at a Comic Con, these were going to be some of the first questions I was going to ask him about what his future plans with Apocalypse were going to be. He obviously loved the character.

[Tenebrae]

Where is Evan at the min? He'd be a good foil for Apocalypse. Unless he has been merged/displaced/killed/ascended into Apocalypse already and I missed it.

[DarkMagnus]

Nope.

Remender was good in ideas but terrible in other things.

He made Rogue hate for Wanda patethic and patologic. even the "duel" for Xavier death feels overreacted.

Also in almost 20 of the 25 issues of Uncanny Avengers she went form "I hate Wanda stupid cow to me and Wanda are the Best Friends forever"

There lots to add to the lore. Yes the Apoccy Twins are something new yes. But the rest is pretty meh.

Uncanny Xforce was better (Sans that butchering of the Age of Apocalypse that was really really sad)

[dragon1440]

Where is Evan at the min? He'd be a good foil for Apocalypse. Unless he has been merged/displaced/killed/ascended into Apocalypse already and I missed it.

Died during Age of X, and is a clone so was not eligible for resurrection a long time.

[Krakoa]

Well keep in mind, I don't even know if he originally even wanted to the Avengers involved at all or if it was forced on him. Either way, I still enjoyed how he brought over those story telling elements and basically adapted and continued on in the best way he could. Seems like he was never really allowed to have full control.

I always thought if I ever met him at a Comic Con, these were going to be some of the first questions I was going to ask him about what his future plans with Apocalypse were going to be. He obviously loved the character.

I mean, the Avengers' involvement had nothing to do with my problems with the book, and his choice of Avengers characters was actually probably the strongest part of the run. The pacing, grimdark tone, abysmal character writing and terrible ideas for X-mainstays, and what he had to say about the mutant metaphor are what turned me off and made me want him far away from the flagship. Seriously, when you mess up the metaphor so bad that X-writers have to metatextually use other characters to respond to you, you've fucked up. And if your reaction to genuine intelligent criticism is "drown in hobo piss" you shouldn't write an X-book

[Jackraow21]

I would've liked to have seen where Remender would've gone without editorial mandates as well. His Uncanny X-Force arc was probably the best that series has ever been, even though it pains me that it dealt with Apocalypse and it was an X-Force team and yet Cable wasn't even involved (at least until near the end in some 'Minority Report' like alternate future police state run by old versions of Psylocke, Wolverine, Punisher and Cable).

[DarkKnight85]

I mean, the Avengers' involvement had nothing to do with my problems with the book, and his choice of Avengers characters was actually probably the strongest part of the run. The pacing, grimdark tone, abysmal character writing and terrible ideas for X-mainstays, and what he had to say about the mutant metaphor are what turned me off and made me want him far away from the flagship. Seriously, when you mess up the metaphor so bad that X-writers have to metatextually use other characters to respond to you, you've fucked up. And if your reaction to genuine intelligent criticism is "drown in hobo piss" you shouldn't write an X-book

I remember some of the backlash, and I believe there was an argument to be had on both sides in terms of the X-Men metaphor backlash. It kind of feeds into the idea of tribalism. Obviously the X-Men is rooted in pride and identity and so forth. Remender challenged that by trying to do away with the tribalism which in a way was a bold and interesting thing to say. Obviously, you could say it's a big problem here on Earth at the moment, where everyone has to stick to their groups, pound their chest and find another group to compete with. I think from Remender's view point, he was like this is kind of stupid. And we're all technically from the same place in the grand scheme of things. Stop looking at me as a mutant and just look at me as another hero/person. I mean there is definitely merit to what he's saying. Let me tell you, if monstrous aliens ever fall out of the sky and start eating people in real life. It won't matter what color your skin is, your sexuality, your hair color, your weight level. We're all eventually going to have to pick up rifles and just start shooting at the direction the monsters are. It's kind of as simple as that.

But then again, if you pursue that route, you kind of wonder if writing X-Men can succeed long term by ever giving into that idea. It's just so founded on identity and tribalism that there may be no other way. But it was interesting that he tried. I also do know that he used Havoc as a vessel at times for himself, at least it appeared that way which I know some have criticized for. It's kind of funny comparing that Havoc then to the Havoc I see in Hellions right now. Apples and oranges. Either way, the commentary he had on mutants and the X-men I believe was secondary to his accomplishments of his long last Nature vs Nurture storyline. I felt he wrote an incredible Wolverine, Deadpool, Fantomex, Angel and Psylocke. His rogue was a little too high strong at times, but that character has a history of being high strong as well. I was okay with his Thor as well. I liked a lot of his characterizations tbh.

[BobbysWorld]

Eh, there's a difference between 'challenging tribalism' and 'writing from a place of privilege w/no real understanding of the ways being part of a marginalized community bonded together by the shared experiences of being disenfranchised by a larger society you are also part of can lead to communalism which is not remotely the same thing as tribalism and shouldn't be treated as interchangeable with it just because there are some basic and superficial elements of overlap between the two.'

[Rev9]

I feel like if Remender was given an 8-10 issue arc to flesh out 'What if? Age of Apocalypse' we would get something close to the epic Dark Angel saga. The one issue left me wondering what might have been..

[Krakoa]

Eh, there's a difference between 'challenging tribalism' and 'writing from a place of privilege w/no real understanding of the ways being part of a marginalized community bonded together by the shared experiences of being disenfranchised by a larger society you are also part of can lead to communalism which is not remotely the same thing as tribalism and shouldn't be treated as interchangeable with it just because there are some basic and superficial elements of overlap between the two.'

Well said.

[DarkKnight85]

Eh, there's a difference between 'challenging tribalism' and 'writing from a place of privilege w/no real understanding of the ways being part of a marginalized community bonded together by the shared experiences of being disenfranchised by a larger society you are also part of can lead to communalism which is not remotely the same thing as tribalism and shouldn't be treated as interchangeable with it just because there are some basic and superficial elements of overlap between the two.'

I agree with what you said here, and at it's heart what you said is probably at the core of what makes the X-Men special. But I do think he came at it with an idea of people uniting around each other rather than keeping them apart because of differences. There's also something to be said about human nature in general and how people are always splintering into groups even further. Even in situations where people bond due to shared experiences and so forth, divisions are always possible within those divisions themselves. Eventually humans find reasons to try to separate themselves. It's like the vampires in the blade movies. Eventually it wasn't good enough they were all just vampires, now you have to be a pure blood. Or maybe it's not good enough being a mutant now, you have to be an omega one. So at the end of the day I think he was about breaking down barriers, and I can't knock him for that. I do think though, that idea of his would never be sustainable long term as it would just negate the whole point of the franchise.

It's actually a big question for humanity in general tbh, whether we are better and stronger because of our differences or weaker due to holding on to them. It's the whole Ozmandias Watchmen argument.