Is the Frightful Four a lame supervillain team?

[CaptCleghorn]

As had been said, they had a helluva first appearance but after Medusa left they dropped off considerably. Multiple attempts have been made to toughen them up, but nothing stuck. Even in Dan Slott's last Wizard story in FF, the Wizard was out thought by his Bentley clone. The Wizard himself is a college QB trying to beat Tom Brady. The Trapster could be gimmicked up to be a reasonable henchman, but really is just a henchman. Sandman is far more interesting as someone who is playing around the hero/villain boundaries. As far as story potential goes, you might have three guys who have some sort of friendship, and may back each other up, but the team as is really isn't a threat. The rotating slot for a fourth member didn't help matters much.

[MichaelC]

I think for the Frightful Four to work, they would need to play up the strength of the Wizard, and the weakness of Richards.

The Wizard's strength is that he is an excellent showman. Play that up to have him successfully destroy the Fantastic Four's reputation in some way.

The weakness of Reed Richards is that he is a mad scientist whose devices can easily blow up in his face. His origin is him knowing less about radiation shielding than his pilot, and that mistake turning his pilot into a gross freak, as well as mutating the rest of his family.

At some point Reed Richards stopped being a mad scientist who could just as easily blow himself up as save the world, and became just the guy who is right all the time. That was a a mistake. And Wizard no longer being a viable opponent for him has been one of many negative results.

Wizard the excellent showman and highly competent inventor vs Richards the mad scientist who performs next-level miracles half the time, but blows himself up the other half of the time, should be a real fight in a story that highlights the strengths and weaknesses of both.

Reed Richards the guy who is just plain perfect versus a guy who is just less than him in every way is not a fight.

In fact, if the story were written right, it could create a real debate as to who is the more intelligent. Sure, Richards is a next-level mad scientist, but he's also ONLY a mad scientist, whereas Wizard is both a hypercompetent inventor and a master of manipulating the public.

But again, this would require undoing Richards' gradual retcon from the mad scientist who got his friends mutated into freaks into the guy who is just always right about everything on every subject.

[danielsan52]

Depends on how they are written into a story.

Personally I would like to see them as a subsidiary to the FF.

Fantastic Four - main team
Fantastic Force - extended team
Fantastix - Junior team (think New Mutants/Gen X)
Frightful Force - secret team (think X-Force) reformed Wizard, She-Thing, Sandman, Goodfire, Lumen, Trapster, Smash, etc
Future Foundation - Science team

FF should become a franchise. Not just one team/one book.

[Crimz]

Depends on how they are written into a story.

Personally I would like to see them as a subsidiary to the FF.

Fantastic Four - main team
Fantastic Force - extended team
Fantastix - Junior team (think New Mutants/Gen X)
Frightful Force - secret team (think X-Force) or reformed Wizard, She-Thing, Sandman, Goodfire, Lumen, Mister Fantastic, Smash
Future Foundation - Science team

FF should become a franchise. Not just one team/one book.

I was gonna say just scrap the team, but this is a great idea. It could lead to new dynamics and interesting stories. Expanding the Fantastic Four and making the Frightful Four a part of that makes a lot of sense.

[Agent Z]

I think for the Frightful Four to work, they would need to play up the strength of the Wizard, and the weakness of Richards.

The Wizard's strength is that he is an excellent showman. Play that up to have him successfully destroy the Fantastic Four's reputation in some way.

The weakness of Reed Richards is that he is a mad scientist whose devices can easily blow up in his face. His origin is him knowing less about radiation shielding than his pilot, and that mistake turning his pilot into a gross freak, as well as mutating the rest of his family.

At some point Reed Richards stopped being a mad scientist who could just as easily blow himself up as save the world, and became just the guy who is right all the time. That was a a mistake. And Wizard no longer being a viable opponent for him has been one of many negative results.

Wizard the excellent showman and highly competent inventor vs Richards the mad scientist who performs next-level miracles half the time, but blows himself up the other half of the time, should be a real fight in a story that highlights the strengths and weaknesses of both.

Reed Richards the guy who is just plain perfect versus a guy who is just less than him in every way is not a fight.

In fact, if the story were written right, it could create a real debate as to who is the more intelligent. Sure, Richards is a next-level mad scientist, but he's also ONLY a mad scientist, whereas Wizard is both a hypercompetent inventor and a master of manipulating the public.

But again, this would require undoing Richards' gradual retcon from the mad scientist who got his friends mutated into freaks into the guy who is just always right about everything on every subject.

It seems to me that Reed is wrong as often as he is right, if not moreso. He certainly wasn't right during the Hickman years.

[Brian B]

It seems to me that Reed is wrong as often as he is right, if not moreso. He certainly wasn't right during the Hickman years.

Hickman writes a great Wizard, though, the best, really. No one handled him better, ever.

I don’t think the Frightful Four ever worked except for an occasional, single, good fight issue. The characters as a group just don’t lend themselves to anything more than that.

The first appearance of the Frightful Four was the prized possession in my collection for years and years and years, decades maybe, even though it was the equivalent in comics grading of a -3, the kind of thing you’d want to pay somebody to take it off your hands — detached cover, missing pieces, missing pieces in the comic itself, hand writing on some pages, etc. Hey, at $2.25 for at the time a 15-year-old classic Lee-Kirby back issue, it was a steal in 1979 dollars. I think it is a nice Chic Stone inking job over Kirby, too, if I recall correctly.

The original Frightful Four looked good as a group, but they just aren’t that interesting as foes and never have been. They were more important as a lead in introducing us to the Inhumans than as antagonists themselves. They look good in montages showing the FF’s rogues gallery, too. But an actual Frightful Four story? They’re never very good.

[kcekada]

There are a few Frightful Four stories I love -- mostly because they introduced or utilized great characters such as Medusa, Agatha Harkness, Cystal and Thundra. I think their time has passed, but I wouldn't be against an entirely new group --- with either brand new characters or imposing existing characters. May be best to just let those classic members fade away.

[Oberon]

I like the idea of the Frightful Four, just not the execution. They should find characters that can all match up with or counter the members of the Fantastic Four. (Someone with the physical strength to match the Thing, etc.) Failing that, kick the Wizard out along with all the previous members and just fill the four slots with some of the FF's straight up most dangerous enemies (Doom, Super Skrull, Blastaar, etc.)

It always amused me that to fill the roster Wizard usually had to resort to hiring a Spider-Man villain like Sandman or Hydroman.

I like this idea and I know a number of readers have pointed out that the FF has never really faced off with the U-Foes, an almost direct analog.

But, in theory/execution, it was always (seemingly) about the Sue-Female character. Medusa was a bombshell of mystery and the arc introducing her had lots of other interesting stuff

It might be interesting to show that Wizard was possibly more smart but actually now has some form of dementia and his struggle to succeed, besides being villainous is also somewhat tragic.

I'd like the idea of a new FrFo with both these ideas, more powerful or motivated FF foes and
one of them being more of a surprise and shocking twist/game-changer (this would be a tall order)

[Mike]

Since the Frightful Four appeared on the last page of the very first Fantastic Four comic (176) I ever bought/read, I have always enjoyed seeing them.
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[Alan2099]

Part of the problem with Wizard is that he doesn't bring anything to the table that Doom doesn't do better. However while you could argue whether or not Reed or Doom is smarter, Wizard would take a third place at best.

I think of one the easiest ways to fix this is to play up one of the angles Doom DOESN'T have. Wizard is not honorable. Not even a little. While Doom has a sense of hair play, Wizard should be all about getting the win. He plays dirty and is all about kicking you when you're down.

Reed may be able to come up with better inventions than Wizard, but just because you can build a bigger gun doesn't mean the gun the other guy shoots you with is going to hurt less.

Another thing I'd really like to see Wizard do is have a fifth member of the Frightful Four on standby. This should be the heavy hitter. Even if you do manage the Four, suddenly out comes Super Skrull or Terrax or something. "He's not really a part of the team. He's just partnered with us right now.)

[MichaelC]

Well one thing the Wizard could plausibly be better than Doom at is showmanship. That could be played up by having Wizard destroy the FF's public reputation. Play up that Wizard is better at manipulating the public than Richards or Doom.

Doom is basically a caricature of Reed Richards mad scientist tendencies. Doom is the embodiment of Richards' hubris, and, as such, is powered by Secrets Man Was Not Meant to Know, both scientifically and magically. He's clad in dangerous nuclear-powered armor and has magical knowledge that darkens and endangers the soul. He is the master of every FANTASTICAL dark secret that might make a human a god, or condemn him to Hell, or both at once. He's even more likely than Richards to invent something that could grant him omnipotence, or blow him straight to Hell, or both.

Wizard, as a master of showmanship and a lesser but hypercompetent inventor, could provide a distinct threat rooted in the relatively grounded realm of politics/economics. Have him sell his team as an alternative to Reed's. A safer team than the team of the man whose recklessness got his friends and family turned into freaks and whose feud with an even crazier mad scientist than himself constantly endangers the world.

[The Overlord]

Well one thing the Wizard could plausibly be better than Doom at is showmanship. That could be played up by having Wizard destroy the FF's public reputation. Play up that Wizard is better at manipulating the public than Richards or Doom.

Doom is basically a caricature of Reed Richards mad scientist tendencies. Doom is the embodiment of Richards' hubris, and, as such, is powered by Secrets Man Was Not Meant to Know, both scientifically and magically. He's clad in dangerous nuclear-powered armor and has magical knowledge that darkens and endangers the soul. He is the master of every FANTASTICAL dark secret that might make a human a god, or condemn him to Hell, or both at once. He's even more likely than Richards to invent something that could grant him omnipotence, or blow him straight to Hell, or both.

Wizard, as a master of showmanship and a lesser but hypercompetent inventor, could provide a distinct threat rooted in the relatively grounded realm of politics/economics. Have him sell his team as an alternative to Reed's. A safer team than the team of the man whose recklessness got his friends and family turned into freaks and whose feud with an even crazier mad scientist than himself constantly endangers the world.

The problem is this would work better if the Wizard kept his good public standing, instead of throwing it all away and becoming a public criminal in his first appearance.

Who would the public trust, a team that saves the world from Galactus or a team full of crooks run by a guy who is in and out of prison all the time?

If Wizard kept his good standing, he would be at least a high B-lister, but as a public criminal, he is a low C-lister.

Part of the problem with Wizard is that he doesn't bring anything to the table that Doom doesn't do better. However while you could argue whether or not Reed or Doom is smarter, Wizard would take a third place at best.

Third in what? The world or just in the FF comics.

In the world, no way, Banner, Pym, MODOK, and the Leader would have him beat.

Even in the FF comics, what makes him more intelligent than Red Ghost or Mad Thinker?

Third, I doubt in terms of scientific ability I doubt he would be in the top ten and someone like Baron Zemo would be a way better leader and strategist. That makes it even more one-sided in favor of Reed.

I think of one the easiest ways to fix this is to play up one of the angles Doom DOESN'T have. Wizard is not honorable. Not even a little. While Doom has a sense of hair play, Wizard should be all about getting the win. He plays dirty and is all about kicking you when you're down.

Reed may be able to come up with better inventions than Wizard, but just because you can build a bigger gun doesn't mean the gun the other guy shoots you with is going to hurt less.

Or are you saying Wizard should be more willing to target civilians? That would be something, the FF should save people, not save themselves from random idiots who attack them.

Also if Wizard is not playing fair, shouldn't he just sick a supervillain army on the FF? Wizard can afford to waste a slot on Trapster in a Frightful Fourteen.

Also, it would be nice if Wizard had some characterization or backstory behind being a one-note jealous jerk and a supervillain cliche. He had that mental breakdown under Hickman and that was kinda interesting, but it went nowhere and got resolved in an unsatisfying manner. Wizard kept on ranting about God during his mental breakdown, where did that come from? Were his parents religious? Does he believe in God? This seems weird to bring up and just forget later on.

Another thing I'd really like to see Wizard do is have a fifth member of the Frightful Four on standby. This should be the heavy hitter. Even if you do manage the Four, suddenly out comes Super Skrull or Terrax or something. "He's not really a part of the team. He's just partnered with us right now.)

Except why would Terrax or Super Skrull take orders from some dork like the Wizard? If Doom formed a Frightful Four, he could fill it up with heavy hitters, there is a reason why Wizard has to hire street-level scrubs like Trapster and whatever B-list Spidey villains he can hire that day.

[CaptCleghorn]

While it's possible the Wizard or the Trapster might be able to come up with something resembling a Fantastic Four level threat, it would take time, planning, and money on their part to do it. The Wizard has fields he's pretty good in. He could conceivably be the person called if Reed, Tony, Bruce, and Hank are out of town or on lunch break. The Trapster is pretty good with adhesive and he's also gotten into devices. Throw in a little nano-bot technology and he's a capable tech guy.

I really don't think Flint Marko fits with these guys anymore. Sandman's had too many bouts of good behavior and conscience to hang with baddies like Bentley Whitman and Pete Petruski anymore.

But the "FOUR" is important here. I think the previously mentioned hidden fifth member is a good idea though. But to become a new Frightful Four, two more baddies need to be added. I suggest Puppet Master and Mad Thinker. The Wizard once had a thing against metahumans and the human PM and MT fit. They also have abilities which work well with subterfuge. Nanobots and superduper glues can be very sneaky as well.

The plot I'd go through is using the Thinker ability to predict events (yes, it's not perfect, but hey, pretty damn good can work as well) and the Puppet Master's mind control to tweak as opposed to full on possession to maintain a sneakiness. Trapster's devices and the Wizard's planning could make these guys an espionage powerhouse.

Of course, once they're found out, the get their @$$#$ kicked very quickly.

They are the Frightful Four because you're not sure if they're going to attack, or if they already have.

And that's pretty much the only way I can make them worth the FF's time.

[Chris0013]

A character is only as lame as the execution.

Completely agree. So many characters have potential but are treated as jokes.

[The Overlord]

While it's possible the Wizard or the Trapster might be able to come up with something resembling a Fantastic Four level threat, it would take time, planning, and money on their part to do it. The Wizard has fields he's pretty good in. He could conceivably be the person called if Reed, Tony, Bruce, and Hank are out of town or on lunch break. The Trapster is pretty good with adhesive and he's also gotten into devices. Throw in a little nano-bot technology and he's a capable tech guy.

I really don't think Flint Marko fits with these guys anymore. Sandman's had too many bouts of good behavior and conscience to hang with baddies like Bentley Whitman and Pete Petruski anymore.

But the "FOUR" is important here. I think the previously mentioned hidden fifth member is a good idea though. But to become a new Frightful Four, two more baddies need to be added. I suggest Puppet Master and Mad Thinker. The Wizard once had a thing against metahumans and the human PM and MT fit. They also have abilities which work well with subterfuge. Nanobots and superduper glues can be very sneaky as well.

The plot I'd go through is using the Thinker ability to predict events (yes, it's not perfect, but hey, pretty damn good can work as well) and the Puppet Master's mind control to tweak as opposed to full on possession to maintain a sneakiness. Trapster's devices and the Wizard's planning could make these guys an espionage powerhouse.

Of course, once they're found out, the get their @$$#$ kicked very quickly.

They are the Frightful Four because you're not sure if they're going to attack, or if they already have.

And that's pretty much the only way I can make them worth the FF's time.

That's not bad, I still think Trapster is the weak link. I don't think Trapster brings anything to the table that say Boomerang couldn't do, Boomerang has a bunch of devices and boomerangs are a better gimmick than glue. B-list Spider-Man villains like Sandman, Hydro-Man, Electro, etc bring more to the table than Trapster.

At this point you as have most of the Intelligentsia and bring in Red Ghost. I think Red Ghost is kinda lame because he is an outdated Cold War stereotype, but he is more intelligent than Trapster and he and his super apes bring some muscle to the group.

Besides that, it's a solid team and an interesting story.

But really if the writers are going to continue using Wizard and Trapster they should gave them better personality and motives then "I woke up one morning and decided to be a supervillain for the rest of life! Mwa, ha, ha!"