Spider-Offices Kremlinology

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I never said Spidey's fanbase isn't shitty, I even pointed out that Zdarsky is a hypocrite jumping to Batman after saying he doesn't wanna deal with Spidey fans lol.

All I'm saying is that he only ever talked about not wanting to deal with Spidey fans, apparently Spidey fans are more indecisive than Batman fans, and he could be lying about that, maybe your's and Tinker's theories are correct, or something else, or maybe he's honest, it's not impossible for him to find Spidey fans to be worse than Batman fans.

He isn't even lying. In one point of the interview, he asks if he would like to tell stories with a married Peter and MJ. He responds with (and I'm paraphrasing) "There are stories that can be told but Marvel doesn't want to go there." I mean, come on... That's as close as you can get to a freelance writer criticizing OMD.

Also, when he was asked to ellaborate why he doesn't think he can make Spider-Man fans happy, he said it's because he would prefer to tell lighthearted stories. And that makes zero sense. No one in the fanbase is against lighthearted stories. Spider-Man is inherently a jokey and lighthearted character. In fact, right now the complaint is all about how miserable and nihilistic the Wells run is.

Well it certainly helped, sometimes Spider-Marriage fans talk in this "We're better than you for picking this ship", and I wouldn't be surprised that OMD only enforced this mentality lol.

This is just "Why can't Peter date other women?", but worded differently. That's essentially the subtext of this quote. To which I say, 15 years of arguments against OMD/BND will answer your question.

so basically the same crowd who is already mad will get have more reasons to be mad. yeah nothing new is happening here. Plus we dont even know how big Peter B role is in this film. And most importantly don't forget its a Miles movie whatever success the movie gains wouldn't editorial push more Miles

"The same crowd" seems to be everyone and their grandma, though. Even professional reviewers are dunking on this run at this point.

Also, we need to stop talking about ITSV/ATSV like they're Miles movies in the same way that the Raimi films are Peter movies. They're not. ITSV/ATSV are Spider-Verse films first and foremost, and have several different main characters that they market. Miles is the main MC yes, but that doesn't mean he's the only MC. I'm seeing this talking point get brought up more and more, and I think it's a way for Pro-OMD folks to downplay Peter B's success in the zeitgeist. If that movie's success boils down to just Miles, that means OMD is justified. But the reality is that people walked out of that movie talking about Peter B. and other spider-characters just as much as Miles. And people are just as hyped to see those characters in the sequel as they are to see Miles.

[Lukmendes]

Haven't been following Krakoa X-Men since that Fallen Angels mini (not really a fan).

Thought Marvel had backed off from Ben Reilly being a villain.

Unfortunately they didn't, Spidey offers to help Ben at the end of Dark Web, and Ben refuses, for, reasons.

He isn't even lying. In one point of the interview, he asks if he would like to tell stories with a married Peter and MJ. He responds with (and I'm paraphrasing) "There are stories that can be told but Marvel doesn't want to go there." I mean, come on... That's as close as you can get to a freelance writer criticizing OMD.

The way this is worded doesn't even look like he cares that much about writing marriage stories, just that, there are stories that can be told and Marvel doesn't want to tell them.

Though that's assuming the way you paraphrased is correct, and maybe the intonation can indicate that he's interested, anyone has the link to that podcast? Or the tweet that only has this conversation?

Also, when he was asked to ellaborate why he doesn't think he can make Spider-Man fans happy, he said it's because he would prefer to tell lighthearted stories. And that makes zero sense. No one in the fanbase is against lighthearted stories. Spider-Man is inherently a jokey and lighthearted character. In fact, right now the complaint is all about how miserable and nihilistic the Wells run is.

Yeah that is weird, though it makes me wonder if he is talking about fans anyways, 'cause his first issues from his Spectacular run aren't really liked, and the sense of humor was so bad I dropped the comic for a while.

If that is his idea of a lighthearted Spidey, then I'm not interested, though I'd still take that over Wells.

If he's lying and isn't talking about the reaction fans had to his first issues of Spectacular, then yeah, might be about editorial or whatever else, but, it would still be a weird thing considering how he directly mentioned Marvel isn't interested on married Spidey, I don't see why he couldn't say Marvel isn't interested on his lighthearted take being used on ASM without really burning bridges.

This is just "Why can't Peter date other women?", but worded differently. That's essentially the subtext of this quote. To which I say, 15 years of arguments against OMD/BND will answer your question.

Hah, no, not even close, my entire point is about the arrogant, condescending attitude those shippers may have, whether or not Spidey should be dating other women, or even being single, isn't my point, and even if those shippers are right also isn't my point, 'cause you can be right without being a condescending jackass.

[Dron]

Also, we need to stop talking about ITSV/ATSV like they're Miles movies in the same way that the Raimi films are Peter movies. They're not.

Maybe in the sense that there's more than 1 super powered hero but other than that I don't see it makes him less of a protagonist.

[Alex_Of_X]

Though that's assuming the way you paraphrased is correct, and maybe the intonation can indicate that he's interested, anyone has the link to that podcast? Or the tweet that only has this conversation?.

Sure thing!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhcXBfJjUhE

Spidey talk starts around the 1:28:00 mark. If you ask me, he's quite petrified and unnerved of us, Spider-fans. Which is why he doesn't want to do Amazing

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Maybe in the sense that there's more than 1 super powered hero but other than that I don't see it makes him less of a protagonist.

I meant that ITSV/ATSV are ensemble films, not solo films. It's like saying that Downey was the only reason Endgame was that big, or that Pratt is the only reason the Guardians films are big.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

The way this is worded doesn't even look like he cares that much about writing marriage stories, just that, there are stories that can be told and Marvel doesn't want to tell them.

We should not expect a big freelancer writer to ever openly talk bad about OMD and Editorial like that.

Though that's assuming the way you paraphrased is correct, and maybe the intonation can indicate that he's interested, anyone has the link to that podcast? Or the tweet that only has this conversation?

I'll look for the link.

Yeah that is weird, though it makes me wonder if he is talking about fans anyways, 'cause his first issues from his Spectacular run aren't really liked, and the sense of humor was so bad I dropped the comic for a while.

If that is his idea of a lighthearted Spidey, then I'm not interested, though I'd still take that over Wells.

Editorial wanted Spectacular to be lighthearted and more in tone with stuff like Howard The Duck. As the book progressed, Zdarsky got more and more control of the book and was able to tell more "serious" stuff.

If he's lying and isn't talking about the reaction fans had to his first issues of Spectacular, then yeah, might be about editorial or whatever else, but, it would still be a weird thing considering how he directly mentioned Marvel isn't interested on married Spidey, I don't see why he couldn't say Marvel isn't interested on his lighthearted take being used on ASM without really burning bridges.

It's not a lie if he says Marvel isn't interested in Married Spidey. It would probably be a lie if he says Marvel isn't interested in lighthearted stories with Spider-Man (as fratboy-edgy as Wells' run is, that just seems to be Wells' sensibilities and not an Editorial mandate like OMD).

Hah, no, not even close, my entire point is about the arrogant, condescending attitude those shippers may have, whether or not Spidey should be dating other women, or even being single, isn't my point, and even if those shippers are right also isn't my point, 'cause you can be right without being a condescending jackass.

"Condescending jackass" also describes the writers and people in power at Marvel. The difference is that Peter x MJ fans have no power like that. It doesn't mean anyone should be a jackass, but I think fixating on the jackass fans that don't have any power is to ignore the jackasses with power who started this whole shipping war in the first place.

[Lukmendes]

Sure thing!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhcXBfJjUhE

Ah, thanks man.

Spidey talk starts around the 1:28:00 mark. If you ask me, he's quite petrified and unnerved of us, Spider-fans. Which is why he doesn't want to do Amazing

1:28:52

"I got enough of a taste of that kind of fan base, and I'm just like, oh man I don't know if I'd want to like, I can't even imagine at the time when I was doing at the time was at Amazing, brother, I can't imagine being Dan, having to deal with this, like it would just send me into a spiral"

"People have a very specific idea of what they want from that character, and they're all varied, and they're all passionate and that's uh, that's a hard place to be as a writer you really have to kind of trust your instincts and just do what you wanna do, because you're going to please everyone, just gonna produce bad product if you try."

Yeah, soon after your time stamp he rather clearly only talks about not wanting to deal with the fanbase.

We should not expect a big freelancer writer to ever openly talk bad about OMD and Editorial like that.

You don't have to talk shit about OMD or Marvel to say they don't wanna write marriage stories, you just say "Marvel doesn't wanna write marriage stories" and that's that.

"Condescending jackass" also describes the writers and people in power at Marvel. The difference is that Peter x MJ fans have no power like that. It doesn't mean anyone should be a jackass, but I think fixating on the jackass fans that don't have any power is to ignore the jackasses with power who started this whole shipping war in the first place.

Like I ignore Marvel being assholes.

How many times have I said the exact line that is "Brevoort's disgusting sales method" again? Because I hope there's no misunderstandings over what it means, it should be a pretty big indication of my low opinion on it, and if ASM right now is intentionally being written to enrage fans again, then it's part of this disgusting method and obviously it means it's disgusting, at least for me.

But just because higher ups are pieces of shit, that doesn't mean we should ignore fans being pieces of shit to each other, this isn't even a case where being an asshole brings any real benefits, it just makes other fans get annoyed, so fans are butthurt because Marvel made them butthurt, and they use this butthurt to be assholes to other people just because they think they have the right opinion, and this kind of bullshit should be called out, regardless if higher ups are worse or not.

And of course, higher ups being worse should be called out too, but my entire point was specifically about the fans, and while I only mentioned Spider-Marriage fans, they were just an example of the fanbase being like this, others who do the same should be called out too.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

You don't have to talk shit about OMD or Marvel to say they don't wanna write marriage stories, you just say "Marvel doesn't wanna write marriage stories" and that's that.

And that's exactly what Zdarksy said. I'm not sure what your point is.

Like I ignore Marvel being assholes.

How many times have I said the exact line that is "Brevoort's disgusting sales method" again? Because I hope there's no misunderstandings over what it means, it should be a pretty big indication of my low opinion on it, and if ASM right now is intentionally being written to enrage fans again, then it's part of this disgusting method and obviously it means it's disgusting, at least for me.

But just because higher ups are pieces of shit, that doesn't mean we should ignore fans being pieces of shit to each other, this isn't even a case where being an asshole brings any real benefits, it just makes other fans get annoyed, so fans are butthurt because Marvel made them butthurt, and they use this butthurt to be assholes to other people just because they think they have the right opinion, and this kind of bullshit should be called out, regardless if higher ups are worse or not.

And of course, higher ups being worse should be called out too, but my entire point was specifically about the fans, and while I only mentioned Spider-Marriage fans, they were just an example of the fanbase being like this, others who do the same should be called out too.

Agreed, but I'm not sure how this relates to my point.

If Zdarsky was allowed to undo OMD, there wouldn't be any angry PeterxMJ fans in the first place. They would not be angry at the guy who undid OMD.

[NC_Yankee]

And that's exactly what Zdarksy said. I'm not sure what your point is.



Agreed, but I'm not sure how this relates to my point.

If Zdarsky was allowed to undo OMD, there wouldn't be any angry PeterxMJ fans in the first place. They would not be angry at the guy who undid OMD.

I do not understand why Zdarsky is scared in the first place. Are Spider-Man fans demanding? Sure but so are fans of many things ( including a sports team I root for which is the New York Yankees, and those fans make Spider-Man fans look timid).

[Bruce Wayne]

The editor of the book told people not to pirate it because Spider-man anti-theft, while glossing over the fact he’s dating a thief.

Don't forgot hiring a writer who also personally downloaded episodes of tv shows (ex. Dr. Who) without owning the actual copies while telling other people not to pirate his work!

[Airtrap]

I do not understand why Zdarsky is scared in the first place. Are Spider-Man fans demanding? Sure but so are fans of many things ( including a sports team I root for which is the New York Yankees, and those fans make Spider-Man fans look timid).

The difference is the Yankees players have a staff of people that deal with the Average Joe's of the world and they earn millions of dollars, comicbook creators on the other hand get a measly 3 digit page rate and have to do their own social media to promote their work. There is a reason so many creators have left social media or just opened their own substack, there is just so many times you can read a DM how you should off yourself or should be shot in front of your family (those are real examples!) before you tap out.

As Chip said, he would spiral. None of this can be good for anybodies mental health and Spider-Man just isn't worth it, honestly. The fanbase is way too toxic for it's own good.

[Lukmendes]

And that's exactly what Zdarksy said. I'm not sure what your point is.

The original point of this entire conversation is how you and Tinker have this theory that the real reason Zdarsky doesn't wanna writer ASM is because of editorial, and I pointed out that Zdarsky only really mentioned the fans as a reason he doesn't want to do this, and it somehow snowballed into this.

Agreed, but I'm not sure how this relates to my point.

I mean, you changed the point to say "Yeah fans are assholes, but higher ups are much worse", when my entire point was never about the higher ups being assholes to begin with.

If Zdarsky was allowed to undo OMD, there wouldn't be any angry PeterxMJ fans in the first place. They would not be angry at the guy who undid OMD.

Okay? Though Zdarsky didn't show interesting in undoing OMD, he only said he's not interested in writing ASM and mentioned the fans as a reason.

Don't forgot hiring a writer who also personally downloaded episodes of tv shows (ex. Dr. Who) without owning the actual copies while telling other people not to pirate his work!

Wait, who did piracy? Slott? Wells? Spencer? Lol.

The difference is the Yankees players have a staff of people that deal with the Average Joe's of the world and they earn millions of dollars, comicbook creators on the other hand get a measly 3 digit page rate and have to do their own social media to promote their work. There is a reason so many creators have left social media or just opened their own substack, there is just so many times you can read a DM how you should off yourself or should be shot in front of your family (those are real examples!) before you tap out.

Back during Slott's F4 run, he did that very awkward retcon where Franklin was made to not be a mutant anymore, there were death threats over this, and at least one person on CBR's X-Men side agreed to it, only to realize the fuck up, try to not look as bad and got banned anyways.

So yeah, fans being toxic garbage is a thing, and if Zdarsky feels like he doesn't wanna put up with Spidey fans, again, I still think he's a hypocrite saying that then writing Batman, but, hypocrite or not, if he feels Spidey fans are worse and doesn't wanna deal with that, then that's that.

[dornwolf]

I do not understand why Zdarsky is scared in the first place. Are Spider-Man fans demanding? Sure but so are fans of many things ( including a sports team I root for which is the New York Yankees, and those fans make Spider-Man fans look timid).

I don’t understand why he feels that way and then takes on Batman which is just as bad

[Kaitou D. Kid]

The original point of this entire conversation is how you and Tinker have this theory that the real reason Zdarsky doesn't wanna writer ASM is because of editorial, and I pointed out that Zdarsky only really mentioned the fans as a reason he doesn't want to do this, and it somehow snowballed into this.

Okay? Though Zdarsky didn't show interesting in undoing OMD, he only said he's not interested in writing ASM and mentioned the fans as a reason.

It's not that I don't know what Zdarsky did and didn't say. My point is that it's exactly what I would expect an anti-OMD freelance writer to say.

If Tinker or I were Marvel writers, we would say the same thing as Zdarsky. If Zdarsky wasn't a writer but was a fan complaining on CBR, he would probably talk about OMD the way Tinker and I talk about it.

You can't expect a freelance writer to have the same amount of freedom and unprofessionalism to bash OMD the way you and I do. If we want to know what a writer thinks of OMD and Editorial's policies, we'll have to read between the lines.

[Mister Mets]

I don’t understand why he feels that way and then takes on Batman which is just as bad

Is it? I can't recall death threats to Batman writers.

I'm now curious if any recalls really personal backlash against Batman writers of editors. It's possible I wasn't paying attention to it.