Is Hawkman's origin really that confusing?

**AdamFTF** · 02-14-2023, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Kelly

I think the fact that Gardner Fox, Joe Kubert and Julie Schwartz didn't want to make major changes to the original Hawkman is testament to how good the first character was--at least in design. They changed his origin to make him a science fiction hero, because science fiction heroes were cool. Gardner Fox had been writing Adam Strange, which was the coolest series ever published of all time!!! Joe Kubert made a few minor changes to the hawk headdress and he made Shayera/Shiera look like Julie's red-haired wife--and gave Carter/Katar jet black hair just like Tarzan/Prince Valiant (Hal Foster being one of Joe's heroes--and Kubert would write and illustrate Tarzan a decade later).

At one point in their discussions of how to revive the Atom, they were considering calling him Al Pratt, just like the original Mighty Atom. If they had stuck with that name--instead of Ray Palmer, the name of a science fiction writer and editor that Julie knew (Palmer being a very short man)--we would probably have a whole 'nother kerfuffle about the two Al Pratts on the clutter-Earth.

Some of this might also have to do with the fact that Hawkman was one of the few times they hired people who worked on the Golden Age version to create the Silver Age version. Gardner Fox had co-created the original Hawkman and Joe Kubert had drawn some of his stories. So, they might have been a bit attached to the design and the name "Carter Hall". So, they kept those things and just doubled down on the Flash Gordon "Hawk-Men of Mongo" influence.

**John Venus** · 02-15-2023, 12:58 AM

In my mind there are two sets of Hawks:

-The Reincarnation Hawks: Carter Hall and Shiera Hall who are the reincarnations of ancient Egyptians who work as archaeologists by day and superheroes by night. One or both of them are reincarnations of a Thangarian warrior that crash landed in Ancient Egypt that kicked off the events that lead to the reincarnation cycle. Carter and Shiera fight with ancient weapons because that's what their past lives remember and their mission in life is to stop the reincarnation of Hath Set from destroying the world.

During the 40's they met a Thanagarian visitor named Paran who returned to his planet. He named his child Katar Hol and his friend named his child Shayera Thal.

-The Thanagarian Hawks: Katar Hol is the son of famed scientist Para Hol and lives on the highest towers of Thanagar. Shayera Thal II was the result of an affair between Shayera Thal and Thanagarians minister Andar Pul. Andar abandoned his mistress and daughter to grow up on the lowest, most dangerous level of Thanagar. Eventually Katar and Shayera meet each other and fall in love but their romance faced a lot of push back. Eventually whilst chasing the criminal Bryk they crash land on earth where they came to learn about the Reincarnation Hawks. Eventually they decide to settle on earth and becomes heroes on that world.

This is basically the set up they had (minus the Thanagarians in Ancient Egypt) before Zero Hour and all that surrounding crap blew it all to hell.

**HsssH** · 02-15-2023, 05:11 AM

Originally Posted by Zero Hunter

The problem is everytime a writer comes in and fixes the mess the next writer comes in and undoes it and makes it a mess again.

Thats because most of the fixes were bullshit.

**Jim Kelly** · 02-15-2023, 05:18 AM

The problem with Katar being one of the reincarnations of Khufu and Shayera being a reincarnation of Chay-Ara is that it would mean they were reincarnated on Thanagar while also being reincarnated on Earth in the persons of Carter Hall and Shiera Sanders.

I guess we could say that Carter and Shiera had died previously, but then they couldn't be in the Justice Society or the Justice League in the period when the two teams crossed over. They would have had to die well in the past, for their souls to migrate to Thanagar and into the new born Katar and Shayera. But they also had to be around long enough to have their son Hector.

It gets complicated and continuity fixes need to be clean or they just invite more confusion.

I guess we have to believe that souls can reincarnate into multiple people and co-exist at the same time. Or maybe it's better to throw out that New Age metaphysics of reincarnation and establish a more scientific approach to the whole thing. Such as the contact of Khufu, Chay-Ara and Hath Set with Thanagarin Nth metal in the past caught their psyches in a time loop. More than one person can pick up psychic energy from those characters at the same time. Maybe tie this into the Absorbascon.

**HsssH** · 02-15-2023, 07:50 AM

Problem is that reincarnation angle does nothing for space cop character. And multiple reincarnations, with first one being some mass murderer space being, in my opinion screws up very simple "reincarnated Egyptian prince" premise.

It is a fix for fake continuity nerds that, best case scenario, does nothing for the characters and might even hurt them.

**Psy-lock** · 02-15-2023, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by HsssH

Problem is that reincarnation angle does nothing for space cop character. And multiple reincarnations, with first one being some mass murderer space being, in my opinion screws up very simple "reincarnated Egyptian prince" premise.

It is a fix for fake continuity nerds that, best case scenario, does nothing for the characters and might even hurt them.

I think it was necessary at this point, aside from the mass murderer thing. Carter and Katar have been pretty much one and the same since John's run.

**Triniking1234** · 02-15-2023, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by John Venus

In my mind there are two sets of Hawks:

-The Reincarnation Hawks: Carter Hall and Shiera Hall who are the reincarnations of ancient Egyptians who work as archaeologists by day and superheroes by night. One or both of them are reincarnations of a Thangarian warrior that crash landed in Ancient Egypt that kicked off the events that lead to the reincarnation cycle. Carter and Shiera fight with ancient weapons because that's what their past lives remember and their mission in life is to stop the reincarnation of Hath Set from destroying the world.

During the 40's they met a Thanagarian visitor named Paran who returned to his planet. He named his child Katar Hol and his friend named his child Shayera Thal.

-The Thanagarian Hawks: Katar Hol is the son of famed scientist Para Hol and lives on the highest towers of Thanagar. Shayera Thal II was the result of an affair between Shayera Thal and Thanagarians minister Andar Pul. Andar abandoned his mistress and daughter to grow up on the lowest, most dangerous level of Thanagar. Eventually Katar and Shayera meet each other and fall in love but their romance faced a lot of push back. Eventually whilst chasing the criminal Bryk they crash land on earth where they came to learn about the Reincarnation Hawks. Eventually they decide to settle on earth and becomes heroes on that world.

This is basically the set up they had (minus the Thanagarians in Ancient Egypt) before Zero Hour and all that surrounding crap blew it all to hell.

They're reincarnations of ancient Egyptians but also of Thangarian warriors who somehow started the cycle in the first place?

I honestly like how JLU handled it.

**Jim Kelly** · 02-15-2023, 10:13 AM

Of course, the easiest way to fix it is to go back to the way it was before, with two different Earths and two different Hawks. Now that the multiverse is back, this is easily done. I think the reason it isn't is Geoff Johns. He loves the Hawkman he created--which is 95% Hawkman from FLASH COMICS No. 1 (January 1940) and only 5% Hawkman from HAWKWORLD (1989). And that Hawkman is on the same Earth as the Justice League.

If not for that, I think they could go back to the much simpler way it was before. And maybe having the Egyptian Hawkman on Earth-Two would make those comics attractive to the readership. An Earth with O.G. Hawkman, Spectre, Doctor Fate, Superman, Batman, Flash, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman--that would be a great alternative reality.

**ducklord** · 02-15-2023, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by astro@work

OK, I'll take a stab at it. To avoid the same explanation over & over, I'll preface with: the Hawks reincarnate over & over, across time & space, and not always in a linear order.
Also, they don't always remember their previous lives.

Yes and yes.

3. Yes.
4. Based on pre-Flashpoint revisions it was GA Carter, followed by Thanagarian Fel Andar & Human wife Sharon, then Thanagarian Katar and Shayera.
Post Flashpoint (Nu52/Rebirth) it can easily have been Thanagarian Katar and Shayera again

Based on 3/4 above, short answer, yes and probably Shayera

That's where my understanding is right now. The Silver/Bronze Age Thanagarian Hawks have been quietly slid back into the timeline in their more appropriate place, temporally retconning Hawkworld. All cool.

I mean, this is really starting to hurt my head, appears to be yes. Based on non-linear reincarnations, various incarantions seem to be able to overlap.
(see overlap of current Shayera and current Kendra). So short answer yes. Meaning GA Carter and Shiera could have birthed Hector, even if Thanagarian Katar and Shayera were already flapping around the JLA.

This is my understanding as well. Because the reincarnations zip back and forth through time, the Silver/Bronze Age Hawks existed contemporaneously with the Golden Age Hawks despite being reincarnations of each other. Neither of them knew it at the time, though.

I don't know what groks means. It sounds sexy. But I think...yes. The most recent series ended with newly empowered Carter and Shay/Shiera getting reinvigorated with all their lives and picking the 1940's as their favorite era. The few current appearances we've gotten since then, the Hawks are wearing their newly reinvigorated past lives garb. And then they probably grokked. Cuz they're hawt. But they remember everything.

"Grok" is from Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land, and roughly means "to understand something completely and entirely." It's a cool word. And I think we're now on the same page wrt who the current Hawks are - Rillllly old Carter and Shiera, but with sidebar memories of all their previous incarnations.

11. Kendra running around currently demonstrates that these non-linear reincarnations can overlap. Kendra is a reincarnation of the OG Egypt Chay-era, overlapping with the current Thanagarian Shayera (also a reincarnation of the OG Egypt Chay-era). Isn't that cute how Chay-era sounds almost like Shayera? But I digress...

Understood. But is are the Hawk pair we're seeing these days Hawkman and Hawkwoman, or Hawkman and Hawkgirl?

One follow-up:
What happened to the Thangarian Hawks?

**Triniking1234** · 02-15-2023, 10:34 AM

Katar died in Death of Hawkman.
Shayera showed as Empress of Thanagar in Justice League and Venditti's (did I spell that right) Hawkman.

Originally Posted by Jim Kelly

Of course, the easiest way to fix it is to go back to the way it was before, with two different Earths and two different Hawks. Now that the multiverse is back, this is easily done. I think the reason it isn't is Geoff Johns. He loves the Hawkman he created--which is 95% Hawkman from FLASH COMICS No. 1 (January 1940) and only 5% Hawkman from HAWKWORLD (1989). And that Hawkman is on the same Earth as the Justice League.

If not for that, I think they could go back to the much simpler way it was before. And maybe having the Egyptian Hawkman on Earth-Two would make those comics attractive to the readership. An Earth with O.G. Hawkman, Spectre, Doctor Fate, Superman, Batman, Flash, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman--that would be a great alternative reality.

Johns? Don't you mean Synder or are you talking about JSA?

**astro@work** · 02-15-2023, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by ducklord

"Grok" is from Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land, and roughly means "to understand something completely and entirely." It's a cool word. And I think we're now on the same page wrt who the current Hawks are - Rillllly old Carter and Shiera, but with sidebar memories of all their previous incarnations.

Understood. But is are the Hawk pair we're seeing these days Hawkman and Hawkwoman, or Hawkman and Hawkgirl?

One follow-up:
What happened to the Thangarian Hawks?

Thanks for the context on "grok", I was thinking it was a made-up cuss word a la the Legion's futuristic words.

R/E who are the current Hawks...
Hawkman appears to be a reincarnated version of Hawkman. Non-Thanagarian, as the Thanagarian died in Death of Hawkman (per Triniking 1234, who is correct).
What is a little unclear is WHICH version of Hawkman this one actually is, but the costume is the same as the one from the end of the most recent Veniditti run wherein the "final reincarnation" Hawks went back into the past (Golden Age). Guessing we are to assume this version lived on into the future of now? I was unclear all throughout the Venditti run where this version came from, since we had so recently seen Katar die.

Hawkwoman is the Thanagarian Shayera version. She had died during her brief appearance in the nu52 Hawkman book, but that death seems to have been wiped out with Rebirth.

Hawkgirl (running around concurrently with Shayera) is the Kendra version who first appeared during pre-Flashpoint JSA, and has been a member of JLA in the nu52/Rebirth continuity.
Non-Thanagarian, another reincarnation of Chay-Ara. Unclear if her JSA adventures still stand (post Flashpoint) but don't see any reason why not.

**JThree** · 02-15-2023, 11:13 AM

Yes, Hawkman's orgin is really that confusing.
--jthree

**The Darknight Detective** · 02-15-2023, 11:35 AM