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  1. #76
    Member galaxygnome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harashkupo View Post
    I hope I didn't give the impression that I think she's an angry feminist. You mention the other people, the friend and the wife were present and anyone could have mentioned it but didn't. We don't know if they picked up on but she did. We also don't know what she did or didn't do because it's not in the article. All we are left with is non action right before she calls for people to act. That doesn't sit right with me.

    I understand everything you said as to why she wouldn't, why she shouldn't have to, and I'm in agreement that everyone has their own way of dealing with this and there is no right way. From personal experience I've been able to grow because people have taken me to the side and told me when I screwed up. And honestly I just keep imagining what I would be like if they just let it happen and not say a thing. It's not reasonable for someone to constantly correct people if that's all they're doing especially when they're the ones who should be apologized to in the first place. But at the end of the day it feels like a chance to change one man's mind and it didn't happen. Maybe after some sleep cuz it's late as hell I'll see things differently.
    I know what you mean. I would be a total sh*t head if no one ever pulled me aside and talked to me about how what I was doing was problematic. I mean, I was one. But still - there is a time and a place. Like, for example, if I say something racist and happen to be around only my white friends and my one friend of color, I wouldn't expect my friend to feel safe or HAVE to mention it right then. I want to know what I'm saying is messed up, absolutely, I don't want to be causing that kind of harm. But if it causes them more harm or more potential harm, they're not obligated to do it, yanno? The same deal with strangers. It doesn't always feel safe - you kind of have to create and make safe environments to make that kind of just easy call out possible.

  2. #77
    Incredible Member cgh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lombardi View Post
    Seems like this is what she said:

    So basically it's "Pay attention! Speak up! But not me, because I'd be speaking up all day long!"? That seems awfully presumptuous on her part if that's indeed the case. If the basketball guy was the example she used then she should have said something to him and wrote about it. She didn't. If she gets these sort of assumption about her 50 times a day then make the teachable moment about the one or two or ten where she practiced what she's preaching.

    I also agree with her about more Wonder Woman.
    I guess we perceived that differently. I didn't read that as "stop and harangue clueless people on the street" but rather as "when we see this sort of thing in our mass media of choice, in this case comics, let's try to do better".

  3. #78
    Astonishing Member harashkupo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by galaxygnome View Post
    I know what you mean. I would be a total sh*t head if no one ever pulled me aside and talked to me about how what I was doing was problematic. I mean, I was one. But still - there is a time and a place. Like, for example, if I say something racist and happen to be around only my white friends and my one friend of color, I wouldn't expect my friend to feel safe or HAVE to mention it right then. I want to know what I'm saying is messed up, absolutely, I don't want to be causing that kind of harm. But if it causes them more harm or more potential harm, they're not obligated to do it, yanno? The same deal with strangers. It doesn't always feel safe - you kind of have to create and make safe environments to make that kind of just easy call out possible.
    Yes and you have given me a lot to think about so thanks for that.
    Your unwavering patience and civility has been beyond awesome and for that you get a virtual fist bump followed by an explosion at the end. Awesome I know.
    Clearly I'm sleep deprived and need to head off.
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  4. #79
    BANNED Petotto Parkavius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonamelt View Post
    "Microaggression" is just a theory.
    Exactly, and not a particularly convincing one. Is this reply 'problematic?'

  5. #80
    BANNED Petotto Parkavius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by galaxygnome View Post
    Microaggressions aren't a theory.
    It is actually. From Wikipedia: Microaggression is a theory that hypothesizes that specific interactions between those of different races, cultures, or genders can be interpreted as small acts of mostly non-physical aggression;

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petotto Parkavius View Post
    Okay, apparently my last comment was offensive, so I'll try again: when did CBR become so focused on blogging about feminism?
    1) It's not. As someone else noted, two columns in three weeks is hardly a disproportionate amount of content.

    2) It always should have been, really, and it makes sense if we start to see more of it in the future. The comics industry is one that still retains a lot of sexism, both professionally and among its fans, and certain incidents like threats sent to the Teen Titans critiques' author have highlighted it. The more people who become interested in comics (which is a good thing), the more you're going to see this, because it's exclusionary and affects people. A comics blog is the perfect spot to write about feminism, because it's an area that needs enlightening.

    As for the subject of this particular post, I don't think it was the most egregious incident. And, probably, neither does the writer. But it's still great to bring to peoples' attention, and I'm glad these issues will have a recurring voice at CBR. Could do with a few more.

    That Wonder Woman column Allison linked to, though? Spot-on and super important. I loved that.

    Quote Originally Posted by galaxygnome View Post
    I know what you mean. I would be a total sh*t head if no one ever pulled me aside and talked to me about how what I was doing was problematic. I mean, I was one. But still - there is a time and a place. Like, for example, if I say something racist and happen to be around only my white friends and my one friend of color, I wouldn't expect my friend to feel safe or HAVE to mention it right then. I want to know what I'm saying is messed up, absolutely, I don't want to be causing that kind of harm. But if it causes them more harm or more potential harm, they're not obligated to do it, yanno? The same deal with strangers. It doesn't always feel safe - you kind of have to create and make safe environments to make that kind of just easy call out possible.
    Also, this is a super good post.

    Also, also, I like that it acknowledges the fact that many of us, even the ones now vehemently in favor of seeing more feminist content, were at one point "sh*theads." I was a twenty-year old kid once who thought sexism was over and that feminist critiques were ones of overreaction. Thankfully, some very patient women helped explain and show me that, in fact, it wasn't. I think everyone's happy to help others understand without shaming or casting blame. It's the easiest thing in the world to not see an issue if it isn't one that directly affects you. That's why it's so important we keep seeing these thoughts at CBR and elsewhere.
    Last edited by Cipher; 05-06-2014 at 02:58 PM.

  7. #82
    Member galaxygnome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harashkupo View Post
    Yes and you have given me a lot to think about so thanks for that.
    Your unwavering patience and civility has been beyond awesome and for that you get a virtual fist bump followed by an explosion at the end. Awesome I know.
    Clearly I'm sleep deprived and need to head off.
    An explosion?!!? Thank you! You really do seem like a great person to chat with. Thank you for not being quickly dismissive etc.

  8. #83
    BANNED Petotto Parkavius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mbast1 View Post
    Some people DO expect that, believe me. I'm an atheist and I've heard that particular debate for years.

    As to your other point, I can't see anything BUT arrogance in that attitude. It is all about preserving the one person's right to do whatever they want to other people, and not to care about it in the slightest. Seems a bit antisocial, to me. Also, it isn't the overexplaining that's the issue, it's the cultural attitude behind it, the WHY he chose to explain it to her. This isn't an isolated incident (which is why this was an example of something) so you can see patterns. That is the point.
    I'm an atheist too, so hey, we do agree on something! Now, back to where we disagree. I'm not advocating for sociopathy here, I'm saying that not all emotional reactions are warranted. People can, in fact, be over-sensitive sometimes and perceive slights where none exist, and it's not wrong to argue that from a logical standpoint. In the case of the example I used with you previously, for instance, I would not apologize for offending the Christian there, because I said nothing offensive to him, regardless of what he/she may think. I would point out that we do not live in a 'Christian nation,' but rather a democracy where, by law (if not always in practice), all religious beliefs are tolerated provided they do not involve violating the rights of anybody else. There may be a majority Christian population in this country, but we are not a theocracy, despite what many Evangelicals no doubt want. If I were the middle-aged Trailblazers fan described in the article, and I was accused of sexism, I would explain that there was no sexism, but simply a desire for clarity.

  9. #84
    Writer/Editor/Superhero Marc Lombardi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by galaxygnome View Post
    I think you would benefit from following the link on "microaggressions" in my original comment and exploring the website to see what the term really means.
    Isn't assuming that Petotto is not familiar with "microaggressions" because he's a man pretty much the same thing as assuming someone doesn't know who the Portland Trailblazers are because she's a woman?

    Quote Originally Posted by cgh View Post
    I guess we perceived that differently. I didn't read that as "stop and harangue clueless people on the street" but rather as "when we see this sort of thing in our mass media of choice, in this case comics, let's try to do better".
    Maybe so, but if she said it that way then it would certainly leave out the potential for people to misunderstand her requested call to action/attention.

    Again, I want to make myself clear on this, I agree with Allison that our society (and comics fandom as a microcosm) can afford to improve on how we treat people of other genders, races/ethnicities, sexualities, etc. Every little thing we do to improve upon the status quo is a step in the right direction.
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  10. #85
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    Everything in the social sciences is "just a theory". When you guys say Microaggression is "just a theory", what is it you really mean? That those putdowns never happen? That it happens, but isn't part of some concerted effort to put people down? That people are always being slightly hostile to each other, regardless of gender and race?

    If it's the first, then a lot of people are lying or delusional. If it's the second, I think everyone agree that it isn't always about a conspiracy to put people down, the Wikipedia page itself says it can be unintentional. If it's the third, well, just because people usually are dicks, it doesn't mean they shouldn't try being better people.

    To me it's obvious that Microaggressions do happen. People often make the mistake of thinking racism, sexism, homophobia, are always these big, glaring, pathological things. When they're often subtle and permeating and very variable in intensity. You just need to open your eyes. My wife works in engineering, and like a lot of women in that field, it already happened that a male boss "naturally" singled her out to get coffee for him or field his phone calls. But hey, it's just a theory, so it must be a coincidence that male workers in engineering are never asked to do a secretary's work when there is a female around.

    Homophobia isn't all about gay-bashing either. It's also that restaurant worker that will oh-so-politely ask the gay couple to stop kissing in public while tolerating the straight couple that is almost having sex on the table. I'm sure they don't see themselves as homophobic.

  11. #86
    BANNED Petotto Parkavius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Lombardi View Post
    Isn't assuming that Petotto is not familiar with "microaggressions" because he's a man pretty much the same thing as assuming someone doesn't know who the Portland Trailblazers are because she's a woman?
    Why do you assume I'm a man? Is it because of my views, or because of the vaguely masculine sense you get from the name I made up (a combination of Peter Parker and Otto Octavius, in case you were wondering; a homage to the recently concluded 'Superior-Spider-Man. ' Thanks, I'll be here all week)? I find your microaggression disgusting, sir. You should be ashamed of yourself.
    Last edited by Petotto Parkavius; 05-06-2014 at 05:12 PM.

  12. #87
    Newbie Member Rocket Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwangung View Post
    Basically, a lot of people feel this way, but what it boils down to being afraid of "being wrong."

    The thing is that the problem isn't "being wrong"; it's for "being wrong" and being a jerk about it. I've rarely seen people banned for saying something racist and sexist....and almost NEVER when they are honest and open in asking others why their statement was seen as sexist/racist. Even when the people involved ultimately disagree, I've rarely seen anyone get banned unless they were being a jerk or an ass.
    I appreciate the response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mbast1 View Post
    Except get the brunt of the problematic social construct. And I don't know that I would agree that someone is nice simply because he didn't say "you're a woman, so you're too stupid to know this, but...". Nice is often a term for someone who doesn't offend YOU. He didn't come across as nice, to me.
    See, this is a perfect example of what I feel is wrong with this article. We keep talking about the 'unknowns;' maybe she educated him AFTER the story closed.

    Well, what about him? You don't know that he didn't just explain who this team was four times in a row to PEOPLE, female or not? Maybe he's so used to explaining who they are his 'socialization' in this situation has nothing to do with male / female / gender stereotypes?

    Maybe he's very lonely for external, 'new' contact that he fully realized explaining the team might have been unnecessary but he went ahead anyway because he met someone nice, who appeared receptive?

    Heck, my brother-in-law has Asperger's. By most accounts he's "normal" (here's where everyone really jumps on me), and by that I mean he interacts with people relatively well considering his condition. However when he gets excited about something he truly likes (coincidentally, comic book animation) he goes on and on about it. He cannot stop himself from explaining details of it, even if he's aware the subject of the conversation knows. It's like telling me Superman was the sole survivor of the planet Krypton. Maybe this guy had a condition like that and you just wrote a scathing article about a man who's faced as bad a lifetime battle as any of us here?

    What if the author's recent exposure and socialization causes her to be so sensitive to perceived slights that she sees them maybe where there aren't any?

    We can play this game forever. Articles like this do nothing to strengthen equality in comics as a fandom, in my opinion.

  13. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rene Narciso View Post
    Everything in the social sciences is "just a theory". When you guys say Microaggression is "just a theory", what is it you really mean? That those putdowns never happen? That it happens, but isn't part of some concerted effort to put people down? That people are always being slightly hostile to each other, regardless of gender and race?

    If it's the first, then a lot of people are lying or delusional. If it's the second, I think everyone agree that it isn't always about a conspiracy to put people down, the Wikipedia page itself says it can be unintentional. If it's the third, well, just because people usually are dicks, it doesn't mean they shouldn't try being better people.

    To me it's obvious that Microaggressions do happen. People often make the mistake of thinking racism, sexism, homophobia, are always these big, glaring, pathological things. When they're often subtle and permeating and very variable in intensity. You just need to open your eyes. My wife works in engineering, and like a lot of women in that field, it already happened that a male boss "naturally" singled her out to get coffee for him or field his phone calls. But hey, it's just a theory, so it must be a coincidence that male workers in engineering are never asked to do a secretary's work when there is a female around.
    Right. It's comforting, I think, for people to think that racism, sexism, etc only happens when the KKK burns a cross on someone's lawn or a politician goes on TV to talk about "legitimate rape" or whatever. But in reality, it's much broader than that and involves a lot of subtle and deeply culturally ingrained attitudes and assumptions that can lead even well-meaning people to do and say harmful things. Things they may not realize are harmful.

    And when someone is confronted with that - "this thing you've said or done for a long time is hurtful" - it's natural to get defensive and resist, because it's emotionally easier to blame someone else (the victim) rather than facing that you've done something wrong, even unintentionally. It's hard to look at yourself and figure out your cultural programming and work to free yourself of it, and a lot of people don't want to do it.

  14. #89
    Super Moderator Stony's Avatar
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    Keep it civil, please
    Stick to discussing the content, not each other

  15. #90
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    I certainly do not agree with Allison...

    First she says: "I'm totes blonde though, so it's possible he would think I wasn't knowledgeable about such things".

    Then she says: " Or maybe this guy isn't around a lot of women who are sportsball fans. Maybe in his default base of experience, women don't know about sports and that's what culture has taught him"

    So when this guy assumed she didn't know anything about sports he was making an "stereotypical sexist" assumption about her... Then she does the same and suddenly it's fine?

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