Marauders #11 Review/Spoilers: Let's Do The Time Warp Again

[Devaishwarya]

I don't even know what to say about this issue. There's stuff to like in there for sure but the whole time-loop plot is unnecessarily convulted and headache-inducing.

There's a lot to enjoy about Orlando's writing, his character moments and creative use of powers for example, but this "big sci-fi idea" approach he's taken with Marauders doesn't play to his strengths in my opinion and just comes off as barely comprehensible and a little pretentious.

I feel the same about Si Spurrier, who's similarly a good writer normally but who I just can't enjoy on Legion of X. Their writing on their respective mutant titles comes off as trying to out-Hickman Hickman, with the results being extremely underwhelming. I think they would both fare much better with the straightforward superhero story approach Gerry Duggab has been doing to fairly good results on adjectiveless. It might not be exceptional but it's at least entertaining, which Legion and Marauders currently aren't for the most part.

Exactatiously.

He's been slaying on Scarlet Witch...thank the Goddess!!!

[BobbysWorld]

I am torn.

I don't love the resolution or presumed resolution (since it hasn't quite happened yet) to the Threshold thing, and I honestly can't tell if I just don't like it or if I'm being egotistical and like 'my idea was better' lmfao.

No but for real like I 100% feel its to Orlando's credit that I called the time loop thing as early as I did, because the hints were definitely there in various ways like the whole emphasis on Threshold as ancestors instead of descendants, etc. I only connected various dots because he deliberately seeded them as dots TO connect. Its the thematic resolution that doesn't work for me? Like, when I was theorizing on the possibility of Threshold being descended from modern mutants and with how that ties into the overall era concept of time loops and self-fulfilling prophecies and breaking past cycles....the reason that all kept coming back to the idea of Krakoa (the nation) at some point in time making the leap billions of years into the past to save themselves....is because when you're an island of time-travelers and precogs and refugees from various timelines and futures who all have a story about being persecuted or chased by enemies, every future you've envisioned sees mutants dying and your only truism seems to be in every future 'mutants always lose'......its plausible to see when - as an out of the box scenario/Hail Mary - someone presents a plan to go rebuild their civilization far enough in the past that no enemies even EXIST yet....this might be seen and embraced as a viable escape that at least doesn't repeat the same events that have lead to so many past defeats.

With the key of course being that if this is what happened to create Threshold in the first place, leading to a self-repeating time loop now that Kate and the Marauders are aware of it....it absolutely DOES fall into the same trap of mutants locking themselves into eternal cycles where they always lose, by trying to constantly play it safe and game the system rather than gambling real risks on the hopes of something better than just mere survival.

And so the idea only made sense to me if the key to Threshold's storyline was about the modern era of mutants making the choices NOT to lock themselves into that cycle, or limit themselves to it....because that accepts a certain degree of defeat as inevitable.....then the resolution would inevitably be for them to reach the point of when another version of them created that time loop by going into the past, they all decided to stay instead, and break the cycle....perhaps still sending their genetic material into the past like in the Seed, so that Threshold exists and time didn't break or whatever, but with the main thrust of the story being that the actual nation of Krakoa itself made the informed choice NOT to flee to the safety of that far back in time.

And the constant refrain of "I refuse to accept that there's no way to save Threshold" seemed to endorse my theory because it plays into all the necessary beats perfectly. If Krakoans creating Threshold was due to their inability to see any better way, their acceptance that this was the only chance at survival they have....then Kate's absolute refusal to accept defeat should have been the road to Krakoa not seeing it as an inevitable destiny for themselves. Instead, we have Kate finally accepting...defeat. That there's no way to save Threshold, but she can give life to it in a way, by seeding its origins.....but doing nothing to change its ultimate fate.

But here's what's bugging me....THAT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE?! Not just in terms of story logic, but in terms of the beats Orlando himself set up and emphasized over and over and OVER, with all his constant talk of mutant solutions to mutant problems, the focus on the Marauders not saving just mutant individuals but an entire mutant civilization, etc, etc.

NONE OF THAT ENDED UP HAPPENING THOUGH? And why? There's literally no reason, in story, that it COULDN'T have happened. Threshold's fate was NOT set in stone, when time travel was the very story mechanism that led to it and their visit to it in the first place. There was NOTHING stopping Krakoa from using time travel again to make records of all the Thresholders that could be added to the resurrection queue, or using some big circuit to pluck Threshold and its inhabitants out of time the instant before their ultimate fate and just transporting the entire thing back to the present, where they'd emerge on the other side of the time loop and no longer locked into its self-repeating cycle where Kate jumpstarts Threshold, leaves a box for herself, gets said box, and jumpstarts Threshold over and over again.

Maybe Grove/Okkara would have to 'sacrifice' themselves so as not to create a time paradox and stay in the past even as the rest of Threshold returned to the future, but everyone else - even the human inhabitants - could have been saved. Literally none of the rhetoric about not having to accept that Threshold and its people had to stay dead and gone, that their time had passed, ever stopped being true, the story just randomly decided.....that no longer mattered to them? Now it was suddenly, just...good enough that at least Threshold did exist for a time? I honestly do not understand where the swerve comes from, simply by following the character beats and tones/themes.

And thing is, its not like the Genoshan mutants are any less part of the resurrection queue now than they were before. I've seen confusion about that but this part seems clear enough to me....mutant souls return to the Waiting Room upon death. Wanda's spell created it to reach through all of history....so whether those souls are present in the Waiting Room here and now because of dying on Genosha, or whether they were reborn ages ago in the past but then lived out their lives and died then....those souls would have then returned to the Waiting Room upon death. Either way, one way or another, those souls are still in the Waiting Room, they still have their DNA....all the Genoshan mutants who died still are very much in the resurrection queue and I see zero reason why this would take them out of it or stop Krakoa from wanting to resurrect them in the future. They don't view resurrection as existing just to bring back mutants ONCE....they view it as a de facto way of life for mutant society. Its meant to prevent death from coming for mutants PERIOD. So whether a mutant died on Genosha or died and was reborn billions of years in the past as a Thresholder....they're still a mutant, still in the queue/Waiting Room....why wouldn't Krakoa still intend to resurrect them?

(This actually does seed one potential story beat I'm really curious to see explored. What happens the first time they resurrect a Genoshan mutant who ended up as part of the genetic aleph they sent back in time to be part of Threshold's first generation? Are they brought back in the here and now as they were when they died on Genosha, genetically, but with their soul and consciousness remembering their two distinct lifetimes, once in the modern era and once as a Thresholder billions of years ago? I assume it should be the latter, but IMO there's a very interesting story to be told in the first generation of Thresholders attempting to reconcile those disparate experiences. Course, I can't help but mention that Threshold surviving or being brought back into the present could have made that story even more interesting, as it seeds potential conflicts of loyalty as that first generation of Thresholders/Genoshans now would have a very vested stake in deciding if they identified more as their original selves, born in the past few decades and Krakoan by virtue of their shared experiences with human prejudices and that led most of them to seek refuge in Genosha, the very first mutant homeland, in the first place.....or would they identify more as Thresholders, and side with their own descendants, the mutants and humans born of their first generation and who made their own distinct civilization nothing like Krakoa's? Theoretically, that story possibility still exists now even without Threshold's return, since any Genoshans who are now resurrected with a memory of life in Threshold as well as before their first death....they could still be inspired to create a 'modern Threshold' based off the society they originally created two billion years ago.

But again, none of this tackles the central problem I'm having.....creating Threshold this way doesn't in any way preclude any of the mutants involved in its creation being resurrected in the here and now. They're not being abandoned or left in the past, assumed to have just lived out their lives and their time is done. They're presumably still coming back sooner or later, will eventually still be reunited with all their living friends and family like Wicked, one of the survivors of the Genoshan massacre (LOVED seeing her, just to be clear, that part of the story I have no issue with lol). So in that sense, Kate's staunch refusal to give up on saving Threshold still holds weight, and even makes SOME sense, because by marrying the lost Genoshans and first generation of Threshold in her mind, making them one and the same, she's also realized that this way she CAN still save that civilization....because if these mutants created it, these mutants are still coming back. They're not gone after all. Threshold then just becomes a waypoint along the way. Another stop for those mutants before their ultimate destination, resurrected on Krakoa.

[BobbysWorld]

Except, problem is....Threshold was much much more than just a waypoint for a lot of mutants, which Kate is fully aware of. Not only did it contain humans in its first generation, like her father, it spanned MULTIPLE generations and amassed a huge population over time. And those later generations of Thresholders, the civilization that first generation created, ARE still dead and gone, even if the first generation can still be salvaged (the mutant members of it, at least). And that's the part that I can't help but view as a weak link in how this story was executed.

I don't get where and WHY Kate - who was all aboard let's save this extinct mutant civilization by any means necessary - changed her tune and just accepted nah, never mind, I've actually decided its fine that it went extinct, all that really mattered was that it existed in the first place, so let's just make sure that happens and THEN we can close the book on it.

Like....huh???? How did the story get from Point A to Point B because I genuinely don't feel that the narrative compellingly sold the idea that Kate is now fine with the ultimate vanishing of this lost civilization now that at least she has a role to play in it existing in the first place. Why are those later generations now no longer worth being salvaged or rescued? Why did one conversation with Grove convince her that y'know what, this one person says all of their people are fine with their civilization going extinct and never getting to partake in this future we come from and where we can bring back literally every one of us who died....because well, there's just no way to manage it, even though my entire refrain since issue one has been not accepting defeat and thinking outside the box....like traveling back in time to take our first crack at saving this civilization to begin with?

Its like well my first attempt didn't work quite like I planned, so....time to pack it in, guys, let's go home and make sure we start this civilization on its inevitable road to its endpoint that's only its endpoint because we gave up on trying to ensure it - like all other mutants - have no natural endpoint and can be brought back in the here and now to join the rest of us either as Krakoans or as their own third distinct mutant civilization juxtaposed with Krakoa and Arakko.

That just doesn't track for me, at all.

Ultimately, even though Genosha being the first generation of Threshold and Krakoa being the first generation of Threshold are nominally pretty similar ideas, the themes that lead from each of those possibilities to creating Threshold are very distinct, IMO. And that's the disconnect for me.

When I was first theorizing about all of this, Krakoa begetting Threshold makes sense as a major story beat of this era because its like "this is what constantly trying to escape our ultimate fates but locking ourselves into endlessly repeating time loops that limit us just as much results in: here's a civilization that only exists because in the near future, we'll do just that....and here we are all over again, nothing's changed, we just now have more descendants to rescue from our own attempt to escape extinction and the foreknowledge that trying to go that same route again will lead right back here. Obviously this plan doesn't work. Yeah we need to make sure Threshold exists so time doesn't break, but we can't treat it as the ultimate route for ourselves, because we know EXACTLY where that road leads: extinction, the very end of our civilization that we're trying so hard to avoid."

Whereas Genosha begetting Threshold feels more to me like "well here's Threshold, a vanished ancient civilization of mutants born of mutants from our time or later.....now where could it have come from, oh I know, maybe it began from Genoshans."

LOL. Like maybe I'm overselling it, like I admitted upfront, I honestly don't know how much this is me just honestly not parsing the story beats and getting what Orlando was going for here with this particular direction vs how much its just me having sour grapes because I thought my idea was better and thus am not really reading the story as is just the story as not what I wanted it to be.

*Shrugs* Either could be true, honestly, I'll leave it to you to decide lol.

Final notes: One thing I will NEVER give Orlando flack for is his deep cuts, lol. I just complained in the X-Men thread about bringing in too many guest stars when your main cast isn't given enough attention as is, but Orlando can bring in all the guest stars he wants, because even though most of his main cast don't have individual story arcs per se, he's consistent with giving all of them enough to do and enough chances to express what they feel/think about it that there's not really any issues where I'm like oh I missed that character this issue, I feel like they weren't even there or didn't matter. Nah, one of his strengths is he knows how to juggle a big cast, and like they do get development. Heather got herself a girlfriend, Akihiro got a new name/mantle and a revenge plot, I really find Somnus to be a lot of fun and only want more depth with him, Kate's obviously had way more to do here than she's ever gotten in Immortal X-Men, and Kwannon, Bishop and Aurora are the 'weak links' in the cast comparatively speaking, with less depth and distinction given to their characters as individuals, but its all relative and I still think Bish had way more to do here and got a much better showing as part of Orlando's cast than he ever did as part of Duggan's.

So I definitely do not mind Orlando bringing in all kinds of obscure or new characters - I love Shakti (Cerebra) now being on the board for other writers to play with in the here and now, I think Tulkas is a great new character with lots of potential, and while I have no real thoughts about Crave yet, Theia and Amass are great and I wouldn't mind them staying focal points in the long run. Birdy's cameo as a therapist was great, Stitch as Jumbo Carnation's apprentice is brilliant, Scratch has always been a villain I thought more people needed to use, and Wicked being here was perfection. I would LOVE to see some follow-up with her in other books after this. I really like the implications that she might be able to at least communicate with mutant souls in the Waiting Room and there's tons of places that particular power could be extremely relevant and useful. Put her in a coven/circuit with Threnody and Persephone, maybe Graverobber as well.....the possibilities!

(I also really liked Feedback getting referenced here, even if it was just to die. Orlando does definitely love him some obscure Alpha Flighters, but Feedback was always a fave - I hope he pops up elsewhere or Orlando uses him in his next book, whatever it is. His power's really interesting....yeah he's another electricity-manipulating mutant as if we don't have tons of those already, BUT something distinct to Al is he can use his powers to make like electricity versions of Bobby's ice golems....he calls them his 'shock troops' and they're basically like electrical energy-forms that act on his commands. A really useful powerset, especially in large scale combat situations, and I'd love to see what Orlando does with that since I think circuits and clever power usages are one of his strengths as a writer. And I really wouldn't mind if his dedication to reintroducing old/obscure Alpha Flighters led to a resurgence for Pathway, Windshear, Murmur and Flashback in particular!)

[BobbysWorld]

Finally, to ruin that positivity and end on a sour note because lol don't try to understand me, better therapists than you have attempted and failed mwahahaha....this isn't about just Orlando, he was just the one to do it here, but....I REALLY need current writers to stop trying to act like everything is just history to time-travelers from wildly different alternate timelines, and this is all stuff they've read about in history books even though there's obviously never been the slightest hint that something like Krakoa lay in the pasts of people like Rachel, Cerebra, Cable and Bishop. Honestly, it strains credulity and doesn't do any of them any favors to act like Bishop read about something like what Kate proposed here with Genosha. Like honestly how are you going to tell me he knew something like this MIGHT happen but he literally never mentioned anything about it idk....earlier in this story arc? How could he possibly have had foreknowledge about some giant circuit that would rebirth Genosha by sending it into the past....while still being as oblivious to Threshold's existence and the implications of that as everyone else, up until this point? How does him even suspecting the Krakoan Age might be a possibility track with ANYTHING he's done in the present since he came to it from the future...and since he, Cable and assorted others have never seen a point in trying to steer events towards a certain future like theirs - since their futures weren't that great and their very presence caused too many ripple effects to think that was ever a viable possibility....why would a Bishop - or a Cable - who knew anything about a future Krakoan Age have NOT used even sparse knowledge of that era to help the X-Men prior to the Krakoan Age being a thing? Like, for Bishop to know anything about what Kate's planning here, based on things he read or heard about as a kid, he'd at least have to know about mutant circuits and the possibilities they unlock....so it just makes him and other time-travelers look bad to imply that he knew about that stuff all along and yet for whatever reason never suggested exploring mutant circuits on earlier X-Teams.

I feel like a lot of current writers act like having time-travel characters reference the Krakoan Age or certain events as history for them kinda lends these things legitimacy, makes them feel 'destined' or more likely to make it into the larger fabric of Marvel timelines, but IMO its super-counterproductive and just crafts character and story breaking headaches that can't be resolved logically and just make it more likely for readers and future writers to avoid referencing these story beats in the future. They really don't add anything to the story and just create all kinds of issues that do everyone involved a disservice. Why can't we just go with 'things have changed so much since I arrived in this timeline I have no more idea about what happens next than any of you do' as a de facto story beat for most time travelers?

Anyway. That's all my thoughts. Y'know. All like. Two of them. Itty bitty thoughts. Barely any meat on those bones whatsoever.

[Grunty]

Indeed. Trying to have time travelers justify Krakoa as existing within their histories, while their very presence contradicts it, just draws attention to a problem they should not make people aware of.

Infact. The presence of multiple time travelers from once possible and then diverted from futures, all which contradict the retcon of Moira X and the claim of her universe rebooting powers, certainly has been an unaddressed/ignored problem with the attempt at reinventing X-men history to suit a particular limited direction story.

To say nothing of the actual multiverse which the X-men of the 616 universe have frequently interacted with not showing ANY hint of anything like Moira X existing.

So she, the retcon involving her and the creation of Krakoa only works when not too much attention is actualy drawn to it and how it doesn't easily make sense with a lot past continuity, including the 3 major X-men characters who are time travelers from futures that don't match the brute forced new continuity.

[davetvs]

I guess I'm the only person who liked this issue. Deep cut characters with overly ambitious high-concept sci-fi plotting are my jam.

[Nicoclaws]

Finally, to ruin that positivity and end on a sour note because lol don't try to understand me, better therapists than you have attempted and failed mwahahaha....this isn't about just Orlando, he was just the one to do it here, but....I REALLY need current writers to stop trying to act like everything is just history to time-travelers from wildly different alternate timelines, and this is all stuff they've read about in history books even though there's obviously never been the slightest hint that something like Krakoa lay in the pasts of people like Rachel, Cerebra, Cable and Bishop. Honestly, it strains credulity and doesn't do any of them any favors to act like Bishop read about something like what Kate proposed here with Genosha. Like honestly how are you going to tell me he knew something like this MIGHT happen but he literally never mentioned anything about it idk....earlier in this story arc? How could he possibly have had foreknowledge about some giant circuit that would rebirth Genosha by sending it into the past....while still being as oblivious to Threshold's existence and the implications of that as everyone else, up until this point? How does him even suspecting the Krakoan Age might be a possibility track with ANYTHING he's done in the present since he came to it from the future...and since he, Cable and assorted others have never seen a point in trying to steer events towards a certain future like theirs - since their futures weren't that great and their very presence caused too many ripple effects to think that was ever a viable possibility....why would a Bishop - or a Cable - who knew anything about a future Krakoan Age have NOT used even sparse knowledge of that era to help the X-Men prior to the Krakoan Age being a thing? Like, for Bishop to know anything about what Kate's planning here, based on things he read or heard about as a kid, he'd at least have to know about mutant circuits and the possibilities they unlock....so it just makes him and other time-travelers look bad to imply that he knew about that stuff all along and yet for whatever reason never suggested exploring mutant circuits on earlier X-Teams.

I feel like a lot of current writers act like having time-travel characters reference the Krakoan Age or certain events as history for them kinda lends these things legitimacy, makes them feel 'destined' or more likely to make it into the larger fabric of Marvel timelines, but IMO its super-counterproductive and just crafts character and story breaking headaches that can't be resolved logically and just make it more likely for readers and future writers to avoid referencing these story beats in the future. They really don't add anything to the story and just create all kinds of issues that do everyone involved a disservice. Why can't we just go with 'things have changed so much since I arrived in this timeline I have no more idea about what happens next than any of you do' as a de facto story beat for most time travelers?

Anyway. That's all my thoughts. Y'know. All like. Two of them. Itty bitty thoughts. Barely any meat on those bones whatsoever.

I completely agree with you here.
I mean, there was a possibility that Cable was working with Moira, once, but it's probably been dropped.
But Bishop's future is definitely not a Krakoan one. It's weird because Moira's retcon doesn't exclude possible alternate futures and universes where Krakoa doesn't exist. It's just a future where Moira's plans were thwarted in some way.
For Cerebra, a case can be made that her future is not the "cannon" 2099 so I'm ok with that.

[Thievery]

I had stopped reading this comic, but I it once I learned that Wicked was in it. She's one of my favorite obscure characters and it was nice to see her. I hope that we get to see more of her down the line.
The art didn't look very good on her though. The art on this comic looks good on some of the characters and not so good on the others in my opinion. I thought it looked okay on Kate and Nightcrawler and not so great on most of the others. Same with the scenes. They look a little inconsistent to my eyes.

I'm still not really liking this comic. I'm not sure what all I missed when I stopped reading, but This issue really did feel over convoluted. I don't really care for the villain either

[Omnipitus]

You all know Chris Claremont was not the creator of Kate/Kitty, right? With Kitty's time in the X-Men, then Excalibur, and other comics Claremont wrote, Claremont was the writer who took over the character. He wrote more stories with her than any other writer (besides Bendis, which is kinda creepy, but moving forward...).

John Byrne created the character, and named her after a fellow student in his art class. The real person who was "Kitty Pryde" did not like the attention, and Marvel left her alone.

Point being, Claremont wrote the most stories with her, but he did not create her. That was all John Byrne.

[Nicoclaws]

You all know Chris Claremont was not the creator of Kate/Kitty, right? With Kitty's time in the X-Men, then Excalibur, and other comics Claremont wrote, Claremont was the writer who took over the character. He wrote more stories with her than any other writer (besides Bendis, which is kinda creepy, but moving forward...).

John Byrne created the character, and named her after a fellow student in his art class. The real person who was "Kitty Pryde" did not like the attention, and Marvel left her alone.

Point being, Claremont wrote the most stories with her, but he did not create her. That was all John Byrne.

I think you're mistaking threads. Nobody is talking about Claremont, except to talk about Wicked.

[Fokken]

I miss how Leah was writing Akihiro & Aurora in X-Factor.
Not necessarily the relationship -- although I suppose that too, as I did enjoy it -- but more specifically the exploration of their personalities and how they played off the rest of the cast.
There was a softness and a nuance to Akihiro in X-Factor. He was charmingly playful. He had a sensuality to him and a vulnerability I found intriguing, particularly among that peer group -- figuring out his role, his motivation, his purpose, and his connection to those people. Here he feels more Grunt.

I was initially concerned when presented with Akihiro's Baldeon design, when X-Factor first launched. His stature and size read as "The Muscle" and he was advertised as such, but that wasn't how he was written. He didn't have a berserker quality to him. In Marauders he does. At least, that's how its translating for me. I realize mileage varies from reader to reader.

And Aurora is giving "I am girlfriend". Maybe I just miss the fun of the will they won't they dance between she and Akihiro? It was a very sexy courtship, in my humble opinion but I'm not getting that fun vibe anymore. And I also miss seeing Aurora play off her brother and his husband. Yes, characters who are intrinsically attached to each other should have opportunity to separate and establish their voices apart, but is she doing that here? [sigh]

[Hi-Fi]

I miss how Leah was writing Akihiro & Aurora in X-Factor.

Daken is gonna get a new writer soon:

I can say I've already spoken to the next person overseeing Fang's future

[Frontier]

Daken is gonna get a new writer soon:

Nobody else is gonna call him Fang .

[JB]

Nobody else is gonna call him Fang .

I keep forgetting his new codename is Fang. It's not sticking in my brain.

[M@Bowers2014]

Nobody else is gonna call him Fang .

I hope you're wrong because I like it as his new codename along with the costume. Unfortunately you're probably right and Daken will never be Fang again after this title ends.