Kal-L of Earth-Two

[SuperX]

Amen to this. None of those characters, including Alex, deserved their fates. Kal-L, Lois, and Superboy deserved paradise for their sacrifices. Alex was also a hero and lost his world, never knowing his parents. Bringing them back and making them villains or killing them was stupid and ugly, the hallmarks of Dan DiDio.

In my mind, they're still out there, hopefully restored to their original Earths and living happily ever after.

Johns is the last person I want going anywhere near Kal-L. Last time he literally dragged his corpse around the DCU.

Both of these are true,and these characters deserve better

[All Star Superman]

Didn't he get killed off in rather perfunctory fashion by Johns? As a bare afterthought and cheap emotional pop, (largely cheap because it was clear from the start Johns planned on killing him off for effect, and because no one had seen this character in 40 years)? And didn't Johns then drag his corpse through the mud in that Final Night thing? Not that sure Johns is who you want...

To be fair, it's been known for some time (around 2010 or so, IIRC) that Johns wasn't who wanted Kal-L and Lois dead. Dan DiDio had a "hit list" that included the deaths of Nightwing and Wally West. Nightwing was spared, Wally was temporarily removed for an aged-up Bart (not unlike Jon Kent!) and Connor was killed. The other target on that list was "The Super Marriage." DiDio wasn't given permission to undo the marriage, so he ordered Johns to kill Kal-L and Lois. I'm not saying Johns is perfect when it comes to Infinite Crisis, but a lot of that nightmare was DiDio's fault. There was a gentleman here many moons ago who had insider perspective on all of this. I don't recall his name, but he worked with Jeph Loeb right as DiDio took the reigns.

Edit: here's a link to a story about the list, which also includes "Supes II," which I assume is Kal-L.

[manwhohaseverything]

How does killing an alternate version of superman solve the "problem" of marriage?johns wanted to do some meta commentary which i believe to be stupid on "complexity" while having no idea how to achieve the said in mainstream superhero comics.He wanted to lay the past to rest..Yeah! That's gonna happen.when they themselves market superman as 80 years old.

[Jon Clark]

To be fair, it's been known for some time (around 2010 or so, IIRC) that Johns wasn't who wanted Kal-L and Lois dead. Dan DiDio had a "hit list" that included the deaths of Nightwing and Wally West. Nightwing was spared, Wally was temporarily removed for an aged-up Bart (not unlike Jon Kent!) and Connor was killed. The other target on that list was "The Super Marriage." DiDio wasn't given permission to undo the marriage, so he ordered Johns to kill Kal-L and Lois. I'm not saying Johns is perfect when it comes to Infinite Crisis, but a lot of that nightmare was DiDio's fault. There was a gentleman here many moons ago who had insider perspective on all of this. I don't recall his name, but he worked with Jeph Loeb right as DiDio took the reigns.

Edit: here's a link to a story about the list, which also includes "Supes II," which I assume is Kal-L.

Johns may not deserve the blame for the actual death- but he was the one that wrote the circumstances of it occuring, And having killed Kal-L off once he didn't need to resurrect Kal-L and the original Lois for Blackest Night (unless someone shows us Didio insisting on who needs to be brought back and rekilled in that story). And based on his current work with the JSA (not the stuff from around 2000 but right now) I wouldn't expect his handling of Kal-L to be any more faithful than any other writer at DC.

[DABellWrites]

To be fair, it's been known for some time (around 2010 or so, IIRC) that Johns wasn't who wanted Kal-L and Lois dead. Dan DiDio had a "hit list" that included the deaths of Nightwing and Wally West. Nightwing was spared, Wally was temporarily removed for an aged-up Bart (not unlike Jon Kent!) and Connor was killed. The other target on that list was "The Super Marriage." DiDio wasn't given permission to undo the marriage, so he ordered Johns to kill Kal-L and Lois. I'm not saying Johns is perfect when it comes to Infinite Crisis, but a lot of that nightmare was DiDio's fault. There was a gentleman here many moons ago who had insider perspective on all of this. I don't recall his name, but he worked with Jeph Loeb right as DiDio took the reigns.

Edit: here's a link to a story about the list, which also includes "Supes II," which I assume is Kal-L.

To be fair, DC had to get rid of Superboy for legal reasons. The Siegel family had striked again.

[DABellWrites]

Keep Kal-L dead. Keep Kal-El (Earth-1) dead. Focus on ONE Superman and get readers excited to read his stories again.

[Jim Kelly]

When the Siegel family struck again--to get the rights they had been awarded before--D.C. had to shelve the Superboy name for the time being. But since then, they made a deal so Superboy could be used and things like SMALLVILLE could exist. If the publisher went through all those legal battles to come to a resolution, it would seem stupidity to not use the character they had fought so hard to get.

Which is the ONE Superman, can someone tell me, please?

[All Star Superman]

When the Siegel family struck again--to get the rights they had been awarded before--D.C. had to shelve the Superboy name for the time being. But since then, they made a deal so Superboy could be used and things like SMALLVILLE could exist. If the publisher went through all those legal battles to come to a resolution, it would seem stupidity to not use the character they had fought so hard to get.

Which is the ONE Superman, can someone tell me, please?

I believe there are elements that must be present for an Iconic Superman, but outside of that, what is "ONE Superman?" This was a far easier question to answer before 2000. As much as I love Jeph Loeb's work, the idea of unraveling Byrne's MOS was a disastrous one. The better solution would have been find organic ways to bring in Silver/Bronze elements that weren't as contrived or "close enough" as some of the post-COIE stuff. Kandor and "Brainiac Krypto" are big examples of this.

DC hasn't truly defined who and what Superman stands for in comics since the late 90s. The early 2000s saw the character's character called into question by Batman and his origin constantly tweaked because a few creators didn't like the Byrne continuity.

Despite the criticism, stories like Superman Blue were designed to explore who Superman was without sacrificing his core character and then restate that for new readers. Since WB/DC doesn't care for the character, they likely won't bother to do this again anytime soon.

[superduperman]

When the Siegel family struck again--to get the rights they had been awarded before--D.C. had to shelve the Superboy name for the time being. But since then, they made a deal so Superboy could be used and things like SMALLVILLE could exist. If the publisher went through all those legal battles to come to a resolution, it would seem stupidity to not use the character they had fought so hard to get.

Which is the ONE Superman, can someone tell me, please?

I didn't think Smallville fell under the lawsuit because he didn't technically use the name Superboy. The Legion cartoon just called him Superman but he was clearly meant to be Superboy. The comics at the time implied he was a Superboy in his youth but didn't come right out and say it. All Star Superman sidestepped the issue altogether by having him be a Superman in college. Though I get the impression Morrison wanted use Superboy.

[Jim Kelly]

I didn't think Smallville fell under the lawsuit because he didn't technically use the name Superboy. The Legion cartoon just called him Superman but he was clearly meant to be Superboy. The comics at the time implied he was a Superboy in his youth but didn't come right out and say it. All Star Superman sidestepped the issue altogether by having him be a Superman in college. Though I get the impression Morrison wanted use Superboy.

I clearly remember reading at the time that the copyright claim included SMALLVILLE in their lawsuit.

Copyright, as I recall, applies to the concept not to the name. The name is more an issue of trademark. D.C. now owns the copyright to Captain Marvel (the concept) but not the trademark to the name.

Jerry Siegel came up with the concept of a younger Clark with super-powers in 1938, but Detective Comics didn't accept it and never paid him for the use of that concept. He took it to them again in 1940, with a fully written script, and they still passed on it. When Jerry was away serving his country in 1944, the publishers took that script and used it for their Superboy in MORE FUN COMICS 101 (January-February 1945), on sale November 22nd, 1944.

In 1947, Siegel and Shuster sued and won--the court deciding that they had the copyright (to Superboy) and not D.C. However, owing so much in legal fees, Jerry and Joe settled with the publisher out of court for $100,000.

I think the Siegel family's dispute over Superboy hinged on this and the changes in copyright law since 1947. As the court had ruled in favour of Siegel and Shuster, the Siegels had a legal claim to the copyright. I think what was disputed is whether the publisher's $100,000 settlement with the creators voided that claim. I believe current U.S. copyright law argues that the copyright holder always holds that right until it expires, so Siegel and Shuster could not have surrendered their copyright--they just agreed to not assert it in compensation for $100,000.

There might have been other arguments in their favour. For example, Siegel and Shuster expected to keep getting work from the publisher, therefore by settling they could keep enjoying a living. Yet the publisher promptly fired them, which would seem like D.C. had failed to live up to their agreement with the creators--even if this wasn't stated in the settlement, it might have been a verbal contract. "You let us have Superboy and you can keep working for us."

[Bruce Wayne]

I believe there are elements that must be present for an Iconic Superman, but outside of that, what is "ONE Superman?" This was a far easier question to answer before 2000. As much as I love Jeph Loeb's work, the idea of unraveling Byrne's MOS was a disastrous one. The better solution would have been find organic ways to bring in Silver/Bronze elements that weren't as contrived or "close enough" as some of the post-COIE stuff. Kandor and "Brainiac Krypto" are big examples of this.

1) Except it wasn't unraveled. DC nixed his plans before it happened. We have multiple sources that Loeb's were never fully implemented due to various reasons.

2) His ideas were to integrate the Silver Age + Byrne Continuity into one thing like what Morrison did with Batman and it didn't happen.

Birthright happened AFTER Loeb was gone (from the main superbooks). The constant creative shuffle on the superbooks of course had nothing to do with Loeb. The same for the status quo from the Kahn era including the Byrne stuff lasting (until) after she had left the company

[Thor-Ul]

To be fair, it's been known for some time (around 2010 or so, IIRC) that Johns wasn't who wanted Kal-L and Lois dead. Dan DiDio had a "hit list" that included the deaths of Nightwing and Wally West. Nightwing was spared, Wally was temporarily removed for an aged-up Bart (not unlike Jon Kent!) and Connor was killed. The other target on that list was "The Super Marriage." DiDio wasn't given permission to undo the marriage, so he ordered Johns to kill Kal-L and Lois. I'm not saying Johns is perfect when it comes to Infinite Crisis, but a lot of that nightmare was DiDio's fault. There was a gentleman here many moons ago who had insider perspective on all of this. I don't recall his name, but he worked with Jeph Loeb right as DiDio took the reigns.

Edit: here's a link to a story about the list, which also includes "Supes II," which I assume is Kal-L.

DiDio, DiDio, DiDio. It always return to that man. How much time will he haunts these boards?

[Thor-Ul]

To be fair, DC had to get rid of Superboy for legal reasons. The Siegel family had striked again.

Well, the solution could had been change the name of the character. They did it for the Legion of Superheroes cartoon. They never called Clark as Superboy there, he always was Superman. Same as with Superboy Prime than was transformed in Superman Prime dugring Countdown. With Kon, DC perfectly could had choose to keep him alive, but change his identity and name. The fights were about the rights of the name of the "Superboy" character name, but by origin, Kon-El was a different character. But no, DiDio wanted to kill Nightwing and how he couldn't he took his frustrations on Kon-El.

[manwhohaseverything]

Well, the solution could had been change the name of the character. They did it for the Legion of Superheroes cartoon. They never called Clark as Superboy there, he always was Superman. Same as with Superboy Prime than was transformed in Superman Prime dugring Countdown. With Kon, DC perfectly could had choose to keep him alive, but change his identity and name. The fights were about the rights of the name of the "Superboy" character name, but by origin, Kon-El was a different character. But no, DiDio wanted to kill Nightwing and how he couldn't he took his frustrations on Kon-El.

Didio wanted clark to be superboy..I see no fault in that provided the creators are given their due.
Why is superboy even relevant to the discussion? it makes little to no difference making distinction in personality or characterisation between the two superman.Even if kal l was superboy or not.He would still be written like kal el.

[Quinlan58]

Yep. They could bring Kal-L back, and the whole Golden Age and Pre Crisis and Post Crisis and Post Flashpoint characters, at any point. But would they have a story for them?

Unless someone had a story that needed to be told with Kal-L specifically, and couldn't be told with the current version of Superman or a sufficiently similar out-of-continuity version, then I'm not sure I'd want Kal-L back. Even the position of "wise older Superman" that someone mentioned before... would that work when the current Superman isn't exactly young himself anymore?

So until that happens... well I for one did like his ending in COIE, so I'll just keep pretending that was his last story.