Kal-L of Earth-Two

[Bruce Wayne]

The old Multiverse still exists as Multiverse-2 according to Williamson so no.

[bat39]

How long has it been since I peddled this old theory? The answer is too long! I still think they should just outright say that the current Superman is Earth-Two Superman, spiritually. That the current world is what used to be Earth-Two, reformed. Earth-0=Earth-Two, and eventually a new Earth-1 that in the same vein would be the old Earth-One reformed.

You must like what Johns' is doing over in the JSA title right now, where he's restored a lot of JSA's Earth 2 history (up to and including the Bronze Age) to Earth 0's past, and suggests that in a possible future Earth 0 Superman and Batman end up becoming like their Earth 2 counterparts.

But that apart, at a fundamental level, the 'base' of the current DCU, and indeed DC as a franchise, remains the Silver Age/Bronze Age characters and concepts. Barry (and Wally) are always going to be more integral to the Flash franchise than Jay. The Justice League is always going to be the premiere DC superhero team. And so on. So its really hard, if not impossible, to make a case for Earth 2 being the template for the modern DCU.

[DABellWrites]

Agreed.

The Earth Two Superman is really a construct of the Bronze Age created to represent the Golden Age. His creation was actually a technical matter - to solve the continuity problem of Superman having been a JSA member and a JLA member, despite the JSA and JLA existing on two different earths. They then decided to throw in some attributes of the earliest Superman stories to distinguish the Earth Two Superman from the then-contemporary Earth One version (Daily Star, the chest symbol), make him older (like the other JSA members were) and advance his story in ways they couldn't with the Earth One version at that point (having him be married to Lois).

But it's not like the Earth Two Superman is any more or less the 'real' Superman or the 'original' than the guy in the current books.

I actually think the Metaverse concept from Doomsday Clock does a brilliant job contextualizing the Earth Two Superman. There's ONE Superman in the Metaverse who keeps evolving with every timeline shift - but everytime the timeline shifts a 'backup' version is created on another earth. That's what the Earth Two Superman is - a 'backup' of the earliest iteration of Superman in the Metaverse. Maybe you can consider him the 'original' in the sense that he more accurately reflects the guy from Action Comics # 1...but actually the guy from Action Comics # 1 eventually morphed into the guy from Man of Steel # 1 who eventually morphed into the guy from the latest issue on the stands, so he has a claim to being the 'original' as well (being the one who, version after version, has been published continuously since 1938).

Except Earth-2 Superman wasn't a back up or copy. He WAS Superman from 1938. And no he doesn't reflect the original pulp-inspired Superman from 1938. Kal-L (Earth-2), more or less was Earth-1 Superman mixed with some golden age continuity. The first story of Mr. and Mrs. Superman (Earth-2) had Clark and Lois taking down one of his androids he built. I can't think of a Superman that comes close to what S&S did. I've read Morrison's AC, I used to proclaim it as being the closest, but now I don't after reading more S&S stories.

[bat39]

Except Earth-2 Superman wasn't a back up or copy. He WAS Superman from 1938. And no he doesn't reflect the original pulp-inspired Superman from 1938. Kal-L (Earth-2), more or less was Earth-1 Superman mixed with some golden age continuity. The first story of Mr. and Mrs. Superman (Earth-2) had Clark and Lois taking down one of his androids he built. I can't think of a Superman that comes close to what S&S did. I've read Morrison's AC, I used to proclaim it as being the closest, but now I don't after reading more S&S stories.

Not sure where we disagree, except maybe in the part I highlighted above. Going by Doomsday Clock's explanation, when the Golden Age DCU morphed into the Silver Age DCU, Earth 2 was created as a 'backup' of the Golden Age continuity. Ergo, the Golden Age Superman gradually evolved into the Silver Age Superman (which reflects the actual publication history of the late 40's and 50's) while Earth 2 had a Superman who was a 'backup' of the Golden Age Superman. I think its a pretty good retroactive explanation that answers the question of whether the Earth 2 Superman is the 'original' Superman or not.

You're right though that the Earth 2 Superman pretty much was the Earth 1 Superman with some Golden Age elements grafted onto him. Let's not forget though that for most of the Golden Age as published, Superman was a lot like what the Earth 1 Superman would be. The Siegal/Shuster Superman pretty much lasted only the first 2-3 years of the character's publication. It didn't take long before we had all the 'classic' elements in place - Superman as a symbol of Truth, Justice and the American Way, the classic chest symbol, Superman flying and displaying all the other iconic powers, the Daily Planet with Perry White and Jimmy Olsen, and so on. So if Earth 2 Superman was a 'backup' of the Golden Age Superman, it makes sense that he'd reflect those developments from the late 40's as well, and not just be the 1938 version of the character (though they did stick him with some 1938 stuff like the Daily Star and George Taylor, or the chest symbol...at one point I think they even tried to suggest that present-day Earth 2 Superman couldn't fly!)

[Jim Kelly]

The first official "Earth-Two" story was in THE FLASH 123 (September 1961) and the first "Earth-Two" Justice Society appearance was in THE FLASH 137 (June 1963)--in addition to Jay Garrick, there was Alan Scott, Al Pratt, Kent Nelson, Carter Hall, Charles McNider, Johnny Thunder and Princess Diana of Paradise Island in that one. However, it took much longer for Clark Kent of "Earth-Two" to make an official appearance.

The Batman of "Earth-Two" made a "What-If" bow in DETECTIVE COMICS 347 (January 1966), where he mentions that his Robin is all grown up now. This was followed by the official debut of grown-up Robin in JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 55 (August 1967), where the Man Wonder tells the J.S.A. that Batman is in semi-retirement. An official appearance of the Dark Knight himself had to wait until 1970.

The first "Earth-Two" Superman appearances were in:

JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 73 (August 1969)
JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 74 (September 1969)

JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 76 [G-65] (November-December 1969)
Murphy Anderson J.S.A. pin-up

JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 82 (August 1970)
JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 83 (September 1970)
First official "Earth-Two" Batman appearance

JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 91 (August 1971)
DC 100-PAGE SUPER SPECTACULAR DC-6 (1971)--on sale July 15, 1971
Neal Adams wrap-around cover
JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 92 (September 1971)--on sale July 20, 1971

JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 107 (September-October 1973)
JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 108 (November-December 1973)

Initially, "Earth-Two" Superman is no different than his "Earth-One" counterpart, yet with each subsequent entry some subtle differences creep in. Finally, the Man of Tomorrow joins his pals in the revived ALL-STAR COMICS with issue 62 (September-October 1976), where he's now fully realized as the "Kal-L" we know and love.

[D.Z]

Post Dark Crisis, Multiverse 2 and 1 are one, the 52 and and the infinite together. The Earth 2 seems to be the version they last used for NU52.

Someday they need to clear up Doomsday Clock.

[Jim Kelly]

I have a memory of watching one of the U.S. morning shows (I think it was GOOD MORNING AMERICA) and Dick Giordano (who had an executive position at the time) being interviewed about Superman. They showed the cover of what must have been ALL-STAR COMICS 74 (September-October 1978), with Earth-Two Superman, and the interviewer made some comment about Superman getting old. Giordano looked uncomfortable and didn't even attempt to explain the whole history behind that cover (why bother). But it seemed like maybe this was one reason Earth-Two was doomed--it was too embarrassing.

[manwhohaseverything]

I have a memory of watching one of the U.S. morning shows (I think it was GOOD MORNING AMERICA) and Dick Giordano (who had an executive position at the time) being interviewed about Superman. They showed the cover of what must have been ALL-STAR COMICS 74 (September-October 1978), with Earth-Two Superman, and the interviewer made some comment about Superman getting old. Giordano looked uncomfortable and didn't even attempt to explain the whole history behind that cover (why bother). But it seemed like maybe this was one reason Earth-Two was doomed--it was too embarrassing.

Umm! What's so embarassing about getting old?

[Uncanny X-Man]

This is a very fun thread!

And seems like a good place to ask this: at the end of Crisis on Infinite Earths, the multiple Earths disappear and only one remains which mostly retains the old Earth 1's history with some characters like Jay Garrick moving over from Earth 2. Or at least that's my understanding of it after reading Crisis #12. Meaning that Superman fought the Anti-Monitor with the other heroes and lost his cousin Kara in the fight. Everyone still remembers all that and the multiple Earths at the end of Crisis.

So how do we go from Crisis #12 (or if you will, Alan Moore's Whatever Happened) to Man of Steel #1?

I understand the real-world reasons but I was wondering if an explanation was ever offered in-universe but before all the subsequent Crises (ie Infinite Crisis) which fully embraced all the continuity shenanigans?

[bat39]

This is a very fun thread!

And seems like a good place to ask this: at the end of Crisis on Infinite Earths, the multiple Earths disappear and only one remains which mostly retains the old Earth 1's history with some characters like Jay Garrick moving over from Earth 2. Or at least that's my understanding of it after reading Crisis #12. Meaning that Superman fought the Anti-Monitor with the other heroes and lost his cousin Kara in the fight. Everyone still remembers all that and the multiple Earths at the end of Crisis.

So how do we go from Crisis #12 (or if you will, Alan Moore's Whatever Happened) to Man of Steel #1?

I understand the real-world reasons but I was wondering if an explanation was ever offered in-universe but before all the subsequent Crises (ie Infinite Crisis) which fully embraced all the continuity shenanigans?

I think the general idea is that the full effects of COIE took some time to hit and fully establish the new timeline. Apparently there was a story in All-Star Squadron which showed the 'ripple effect' changing the DCU - I haven't read it but I remember seeing a panel where we see a photograph of the JSA's classic membership changing, Back to the Future style, to remove the Golden Age Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Robin and a few other characters.

In practical terms, we end COIE with Superman mourning the death of his cousin Kara. But then, at some point, the new timeline fully sets in and Superman 'becomes' the Byrne Superman who's never had a cousin, but still vaguely remembers the 'Crisis'.

Of course, none of this was remotely explained in a consistent way in those early Post-COIE comics.

Incidentially, Marv Wolfman wanted to avoid this very issue by ending the COIE story with the battle at the Dawn of Time, after which the new history of the DCU fully sets in and no one remembers the Multiverse or the Crisis. But the brass wanted the heroes who were at the Dawn of Time to remember COIE, because they felt that the story would become meaningless if it was totally erased from the new continuity. And that, in a way, was the genesis of a lot of the anomalies surrounding the placement of Crisis in the Post-COIE timeline...

[Jim Kelly]

Umm! What's so embarassing about getting old?

I'm not sure I can explain it, but let me see if I can try. Here was Giordano on national T.V. to talk about Superman--who never seems to age. The official mainstream Superman. The interviewer pulls up a picture on the screen of Superman looking old. And that puts Giordano back on his heels--he can't waste valuable air time explaining about Earth-Two and that this is actually a Superman on another Earth and not the Superman that is featured in most comics, the one he's here to promote--it was an unwelcome curve ball, putting him off his game. Thus his look of discomfort.

Of course, this is all from memory and my brain may have embellished and changed the details over the years.

[Jim Kelly]

Mekanique (from Fritz Lang's METROPOLIS) was holding back the effects of Crisis--at least in ALL-STAR SQUADRON. That doesn't really explain all the inconsistencies in the comics at the time. It seems like even though they had at least three years to prepare for these changes, they still were scrambling to work out all the continuity.

Alan Moore's story isn't really consistent with any continuity of the time (pre or post). And LOIS LANE No.2 (of 2) came out after it with all the continuity that was ongoing at the time--Lois and Superman broken up, while Lana and Clark are in a serious relationship--leaving us hanging. Moore's story was just a flight of fancy.

[manwhohaseverything]

I'm not sure I can explain it, but let me see if I can try. Here was Giordano on national T.V. to talk about Superman--who never seems to age. The official mainstream Superman. The interviewer pulls up a picture on the screen of Superman looking old. And that puts Giordano back on his heels--he can't waste valuable air time explaining about Earth-Two and that this is actually a Superman on another Earth and not the Superman that is featured in most comics, the one he's here to promote--it was an unwelcome curve ball, putting him off his game. Thus his look of discomfort.

Of course, this is all from memory and my brain may have embellished and changed the details over the years.

Hmmm..i can see that happening.I think at the moment these guys might have conflated two things.The character being ageless and the character itself aging or being old aged.

That brings to the character itself.I mean,superman isn't exactly "young" comparatively speaking.He was always oldman to his target demographic at the very least.

[Jim Kelly]

Hmmm..i can see that happening.I think at the moment these guys might have conflated two things.The character being ageless and the character itself aging or being old aged.

That brings to the character itself.I mean,superman isn't exactly "young" comparatively speaking.He was always oldman to his target demographic at the very least.

Other than now, I think mainstream Superman was his oldest in the early 1960s. Weisinger had Swan draw him to look a bit like George Reeves with a receding hairline. Superman seemed to get younger after that as he got some Rogaine. So by the 1970s, he was looking much younger than he had before. Also Mort maintained that Superman had been around since 1938--which he had--how this worked out in the world of Superman was up to the reader to deal with. But all the Superboy stories predated 1938. In 1970, with Weisinger's retirement, that changed as they decided Superboy was about fifteen years behind Superman and Superman was eternally 29 years old (and this held true right up to Crisis).

Since the median age of the readership was gradually getting older and Superman was getting younger, you can see that we were converging on being almost the same age as our hero.

[Quinlan58]

Mekanique (from Fritz Lang's METROPOLIS) was holding back the effects of Crisis--at least in ALL-STAR SQUADRON. That doesn't really explain all the inconsistencies in the comics at the time. It seems like even though they had at least three years to prepare for these changes, they still were scrambling to work out all the continuity.

Alan Moore's story isn't really consistent with any continuity of the time (pre or post). And LOIS LANE No.2 (of 2) came out after it with all the continuity that was ongoing at the time--Lois and Superman broken up, while Lana and Clark are in a serious relationship--leaving us hanging. Moore's story was just a flight of fancy.

I haven't read the All Star Squadron story, but that sounds like a hilarious power boost for Mekanique from what I remember of its actions in Metropolis.

And yeah, Moore, Swan and Schwartz just branded "Whatever Happened..." an Imaginary Story and washed their hands of continuity stuff Was the Lois Lane mini the last truly "in-continuity" story for the Pre-Crisis Superman? It's a fine comic indeed, but it feels deeply weird for a grand finale.