Amazing Spider-man 20 Preview

[Spider-Tiger]

But it shows that "If people wanted a married Spider-Man, they would have bought more copies of Renew Your Vows" is a canard and not proof of anything. As everyone else is pointing out, AU and satellite titles just do not sustain sales as well as ASM.

In fact, when Renew Your Vows WAS the mainline continuity - when it replaced ASM during Secret Wars - it was the top selling Secret Wars title by a bit, IIRC.

Just did some quick googling. First issue sold over 200k units. The first issue of BND sold around 120k units. It also outsold the first issue of Superior which sold 180k. I'm struggling to even find an issue that outdid RYV that wasn't a beginning (a new Amazing #1) or finale (the conclusion prior to a new #1 )

But it's hard to draw conclusions. Who knows if people were interested in the marriage returning in RYV but then dropped the book the moment they realized it was just another AU? Who knows if people were only interested in BND to see if the marriage would return? Etc.

The only true comparison would be if there were two 616 books under the main title. One with a single and one with a married Spider-Man. Both running concurrently. And that's never going to happen.

But at the very least it is reasonable to conclude that a married Spider-Man doesn't hurt sales.

The available numbers don't even support Brevoort's conclusion that outrage sells more than just giving fans what they want (which in his argument is marriage.) If that were the case you would expect to see OMD/BND outselling RYV. You would expect to see Peter's death and Superior outselling his return. You would expect V4 #1 under slott (which came at the heels of RYV and the marriage being shuffled off to an AU) to sell better than V5 #1 under Spencer (which saw the reuniting of Peter and MJ and a back to basics approach.) They did not. (But Brevoorts statement was also back in 2014 so take that with a grain of salt.)

And in terms of long term trends, when figures were still available the book had been hovering for years at around 90k. (And thats a generous figure. Often it slipped to 60k) Just a few years prior (before OMD) the book was hovering comfortably at around 120k.

[TinkerSpider]

Awesome idea to look at data. So let's look at League of Comicbook Geeks, which has a much bigger sample size (keeping in mind it's still not statistically relevant as it's self-selected).

Key: Issue # #of people who rated it Rating out of 5 stars

ASM 1 1193 3.8
ASM 2 785 3.7
ASM 3 730 3.9
ASM 4 699 4.1
ASM 5 676 4.0
ASM 6 709 3.8
ASM 7 608 3.9
ASM 8 567 4.0
ASM 9 569 3.4
ASM 10 554 3.9
ASM 11 474 3.8
ASM 12 466 3.8
ASM 13 456 3.7
ASM 14 460 3.6 <- start of Dark Web
ASM 15 434 3.5
ASM 16 408 3.4
ASM 17 406 3.2
ASM 18 343 3.1
ASM 19 284 3.0
ASM 20 75 2.4 <- these numbers will probably change as issue just same out and people are still adding it

The League people have said a rapid dropoff from the first issue is to expected as people will buy #1 issues but then move to trade collections.

It does seem as though the run was holding steady-ish until Dark Web, then took a plunge.

[Mercwmouth12]

Awesome idea to look at data. So let's look at League of Comicbook Geeks, which has a much bigger sample size (keeping in mind it's still not statistically relevant as it self-selected).

Key: Issue # #of people who shelved it Rating out of 5 stars

ASM 1 1193 3.8
ASM 2 785 3.7
ASM 3 730 3.9
ASM 4 699 4.1
ASM 5 676 4.0
ASM 6 709 3.8
ASM 7 608 3.9
ASM 8 567 4.0
ASM 9 569 3.4
ASM 10 554 3.9
ASM 11 474 3.8
ASM 12 466 3.8
ASM 13 456 3.7
ASM 14 460 3.6 <- start of Dark Web
ASM 15 434 3.5
ASM 16 408 3.4
ASM 17 406 3.2
ASM 18 343 3.1
ASM 19 284 3.0
ASM 20 75 2.4 <- these numbers will probably change as issue just same out and people are still adding it

The League people have said a rapid dropoff from the first issue is to expected as people will buy #1 issues but then move to trade collections.

It's gradually getting worse and nothing can save it and the trades have been the worse they've ever been

[Vortex85]

Awesome idea to look at data. So let's look at League of Comicbook Geeks, which has a much bigger sample size (keeping in mind it's still not statistically relevant as it's self-selected).

Key: Issue # #of people who rated it Rating out of 5 stars

ASM 1 1193 3.8
ASM 2 785 3.7
ASM 3 730 3.9
ASM 4 699 4.1
ASM 5 676 4.0
ASM 6 709 3.8
ASM 7 608 3.9
ASM 8 567 4.0
ASM 9 569 3.4
ASM 10 554 3.9
ASM 11 474 3.8
ASM 12 466 3.8
ASM 13 456 3.7
ASM 14 460 3.6 <- start of Dark Web
ASM 15 434 3.5
ASM 16 408 3.4
ASM 17 406 3.2
ASM 18 343 3.1
ASM 19 284 3.0
ASM 20 75 2.4 <- these numbers will probably change as issue just same out and people are still adding it

The League people have said a rapid dropoff from the first issue is to expected as people will buy #1 issues but then move to trade collections.

It does seem as though the run was holding steady-ish until Dark Web, then took a plunge.

Dude I showed an opinion polll on OMD with 6000 votes which came off the front page of CBR a few years back. If anything that League website is more of an echo chamber than that poll.

EDIT: I see what you are doing with the number of ratings I guess could correlate somewhat to sales. It's a theory but unfortantely we don't have sales data. Remember Marvel sales are more about the number of variants produced than actual people buying the book these days. The problem is Marvel can pump out as many issues as they want to comic stores before anyone shows up to buy them, so sales as a statistic is always warped from the get-go.

Also funny how people talk about scores on amazon with less than 100 votes. Amazon always has inflated scores that can be voted on by anybody. If you look at comics its always in the 4-5 star range.

[TinkerSpider]

Just did some quick googling. First issue sold over 200k units. The first issue of BND sold around 120k units. It also outsold the first issue of Superior which sold 180k. I'm struggling to even find an issue that outdid RYV that wasn't a beginning (a new Amazing #1) or finale (the conclusion prior to a new #1 )

But it's hard to draw conclusions. Who knows if people were interested in the marriage returning in RYV but then dropped the book the moment they realized it was just another AU? Who knows if people were only interested in BND to see if the marriage would return? Etc.

The only true comparison would be if there were two 616 books under the main title. One with a single and one with a married Spider-Man. Both running concurrently. And that's never going to happen.

But at the very least it is reasonable to conclude that a married Spider-Man doesn't hurt sales.

That's the conclusion I would draw, as well.

The available numbers don't even support Brevoort's conclusion that outrage sells more than just giving fans what they want (which in his argument is marriage.) If that were the case you would expect to see OMD/BND outselling RYV. You would expect to see Peter's death and Superior outselling his return. You would expect V4 #1 under slott (which came at the heels of RYV and the marriage being shuffled off to an AU) to sell better than V5 #1 under Spencer (which saw the reuniting of Peter and MJ and a back to basics approach.) They did not. (But Brevoorts statement was also back in 2014 so take that with a grain of salt.)

And in terms of long term trends, when figures were still available the book had been hovering for years at around 90k. (And thats a generous figure. Often it slipped to 60k) Just a few years prior (before OMD) the book was hovering comfortably at around 120k.

90K is a very generous figure. I'd say the average was more around 65K-75K, while Batman stayed steady around 100K-90K in the same time period.

Dude I showed an opinion polll on OMD with 6000 votes which came off the front page of CBR a few years back. If anything that website is more of an echo chamber than that poll.

Also funny how people talk about scores on amazon with less than 100 votes. Amazon always has inflated scores that can be voted on by anybody. If you look at comics its always in the 4-5 star range.

Just showing that even an echo chamber is souring on the run!

and moving on...

Y'know what I think is the most disappointing thing about this run? Peter is now just a quitter.

He gave up on bringing Tombstone to justice (he had a rationalization, but it was just a rationalization). He begged for help from Norman. He decided he was going to die against the Hobgoblins before Norman showed up to rescue him. He laid down and decided he was going to lose an eye before Rek-Rap came to save him. He's given up on Ben apparently. And now he's given up on his love for MJ.

He's just...sad, now. Has no fight. Just rolls over to takes the punches and waits for someone else to save the day or make him feel better.

[NC_Yankee]

It's gradually getting worse and nothing can save it and the trades have been the worse they've ever been

I am past the “Anger Stage.” ASM is off the “Pull List” until this awful storyline and primary writer are finished ( and I will never pick it up in trades). Why? A comic book a supposed to be something to enjoy not get pissed about

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I don't think bringing up sales matter much since the pro-OMD writers and editors are essentially just ideologues. They count evidence that supports their claim and rationalize evidence that doesn't. We've seen this over and over again.

It's almost religious-like. It's a matter of faith that an unmarried Spidey sells better.

[Spider-Tiger]

90K is a very generous figure. I'd say the average was more around 65K-75K, while Batman stayed steady around 100K-90K in the same time period.

Yeah I would say so as well. I was intentionally being extra generous in case someone were to blame the economy, the market, or some other external factor for the sales decline.

I don't think bringing up sales matter much since the pro-OMD writers and editors are essentially just ideologues. They count evidence that supports their claim and rationalize evidence that doesn't. We've seen this over and over again.

It's almost religious-like. It's a matter of faith that an unmarried Spidey sells better.

I think it does matter in the sense that these trends are far more evident now than they were a decade ago. The OMD/BND experiment and outrage farming don't seem to be effective strategies based on the current available data. Whether or not some people will ignore or rationalize the data shouldn't halt the discussion IMO.

[Frontier]

"Peter is not Matt Murdock"..and Felicia is not Elektra....Peter isn't Spidey because a burglar stole a painting/some jewellery...but because a burglar murdered Uncle Ben...Pete is not on a mission to track down every thief (or murderer even)....

But look, these discussions and these arguments can be made about what we want...how we want things to be....that's not my point...


All this angst, and lobbying about the marriage, sorry I'm bored of it...moving on...getting worked up about the sister line, I ask you...

And I've been in the pro marriage camp, and boycotted ASM for a while..

I'm not against MJ in favour of Felicia, I love both characters....as of now though Peter can have a relationship with Felicia, does have a relationship with Felicia, and, IS IN a relationship with Felicia...and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that...it's a good thing...I'm happy, so far...

Let's see next what happens with the "mystery box" issues featuring MJ....

It's not even just the relationship stuff, the writing for Peter isn't that great either.

[SplinteringHeart]

Oh, I agree Frontier...but I feel there's such a lobby for the reinstatement of the marriage on these boards, and it over arches the other issues...like bringing back the marriage is the panacea...

[duke togo]

I'm not so sure about that. If it was a poll of online fan communities, then maybe. But a random selection of the larger readership?

Exactly, people don't seem to recognise the echo chambers they're in sometimes.

I barely post here, but lets just say the reactions here are MILD compared to others sections of the internet. Reddit is a warzone because of the recent issues, Facebook groups, and the comments section where you can read the issues for free have turned into truly negative spaces. The negative comments here are rather kind compared to what I've read elsewhere. Comic book readers are usually pretty frequent internet users and in this case, the recent negative comments are not the vocal minority, but the very vocal majority. The internet is a huge place and there are thousands of people annoyed by the current run. Again, we aren't talking about a handful of people, we are talking about thousands.

[Zeitgeist]

I barely post here, but lets just say the reactions here are MILD compared to others sections of the internet. Reddit is a warzone because of the recent issues, Facebook groups, and the comments section where you can read the issues for free have turned into truly negative spaces. The negative comments here are rather kind compared to what I've read elsewhere. Comic book readers are usually pretty frequent internet users and in this case, the recent negative comments are not the vocal minority, but the very vocal majority. The internet is a huge place and there are thousands of people annoyed by the current run. Again, we aren't talking about a handful of people, we are talking about thousands.

I've said this before but I remember people painting a doom-and-gloom portrait when Slott was writing Superior Spider-Man, and that's one of the key reasons why I'll never put stock in people using corners of fandom as a barometer for reception again. Just can't trust people not to be caught in their feels.

[duke togo]

I've said this before but I remember people painting a doom-and-gloom portrait when Slott was writing Superior Spider-Man, and that's one of the key reasons why I'll never put stock in people using corners of fandom as a barometer for reception again. Just can't trust people not to be caught in their feels.

A lot of people actually enjoyed Superior Spider-Man as it gave Spider-Man a temporary kick in the pants that it needed. It was more divided than the current run. Then again, I remember the Mackie outrage and the OMD outrage, and yet here we are. The book is pretty much going to be stuck in repeat forever and either we accept that or not.

[Frontier]

A lot of people actually enjoyed Superior Spider-Man as it gave Spider-Man a temporary kick in the pants that it needed. It was more divided than the current run. Then again, I remember the Mackie outrage and the OMD outrage, and yet here we are. The book is pretty much going to be stuck in repeat forever and either we accept that or not.

I think the underlying issue with Superior was how much it dumbed characters down to make the story work and how it started to highlight Slotts' underlying issue with writing Peter (and how much he'll go to bat for Doc Ock).

[Zeitgeist]

The book is pretty much going to be stuck in repeat forever and either we accept that or not.

Too true, it's the nature of the beast for all American mainstream superhero comics for better or worse.