A De-powered Justice League

[Ascended]

I don't agree with the premise; if you don't want to read about ultra powerful heroes, read about other heroes.

It could be good for a storyline, either an Event or just an arc in a particular book. I've long dreamed of a Superman arc where he loses his powers but still has to deal with all his regular foes, with them at full power. Or an Event that does the same thing but on a larger scale. But as a new normal, hard pass. I like my crazy, high concept science/fantasy as much as I like my pulp flavored noir. People who don't want high concept can read Daredevil, Batman, Nightwing, most Spider-Man arcs, etc. They got options, and that's before we get into all the great indie books that work on that level.

I *would* however, very much support the idea of a Elseworlds miniseries, ongoing imprint, tv show, or film universe that works on this kind of level. I think, especially if you paired it up with a more retro and pulp aesthetic, that you'd have a damn good world to tell stories in. An old school, pulp flavored DCU where everything isn't a huge cosmic Crisis and local crime is still a concern? I'd read that, and I'd most certainly watch it....as long as I can return to my stupidly powerful Morrison flavored DCU afterwards. But I also think something like this would benefit from using old Golden Age characters as much as de-powered Leaguers. You want a less powerful League, just use Hourman, Mid-Nite, Sandman, etc.

But if you were to de-power the League, I'd just knock Clark back down to roughly Golden Age levels, reduce everyone else by an equal percentage, and call it good.

Clark loses a lot of the raw physicality, flight, and all the vision powers except x-ray, micro/telescopic, and heat. No weaknesses other than Kryptonite.

J'onn focuses more on telepathy, invisibility, and (limited) shape shifting. He'd technically have the usual powerset and be physically stronger than humans, but not on Clark's level (more mid-tier). Still weak to fire (psychological allergy).

Flash is "speed of sound" fast and loses all the crazy speed force tricks, like kinetic manipulation. I'd probably drop the concept of the speed force entirely. Can still run across water, and other things that're vaguely possible, just no more speed magic. No weakness, but a metabolism that forces him to consume a ridiculous amount of food. Less a weakness, more a complication.

Lantern has to recharge every solar rotation, has to focus on everything he's doing. The ring has an AI database, but it's not a co-pilot. Weakness is all about concentration and controlling emotion, especially fear. Get under GL's skin, make him worry or distract him, and you've got your opening.

Bruce goes back to being what he's supposed to be; the world's greatest detective. No more limitless sci-fi toys, infinite knowledge, and flawless skills in all things. He's not quite Olympic level in athletics and martial arts, not "world renowned" in the sciences, but he's a hell of a detective and he fights dirty.

Arthur.....I wouldn't change, other than just reducing his power levels appropriately. The trident wouldn't be as powerful, obviously. No need to bring back the old "has to be in water every few hours" thing, that's far too much.

With Diana I have two approaches. One is to just lower her power levels and gear to match Clark's, and otherwise leave her be. The other option is to shift her powerset a bit, to make her less of a flying brick and more of a balanced mythological powerhouse. Akin to that "Clark is power 10, Bruce is skill 10, Diana's 5/5" theory talked about earlier. In the same way we talk about J'onn focusing on his unique abilities and downplaying his Kryptonian-ish powers, I suggest Diana's physical strength and durability be reduced to mid-level (with Clark still being the top end, just on this reduced scale) and lose the ability to fly (she'd glide instead). But she'd gain the ability to travel to the god sphere/Olympus at will, even opening portals there if need be, be able to detect magic and lies, and could speak to animals. The invisible jet would be a military prototype designed to combat superhumans, which she'd control via a neural receiver in her tiara (when Steve isn't around to sidekick for her anyway). And she'd remain one of the most skilled combatant on earth with god-forged gear, so still the team badass. I'd bring back the notion that if she is bound against her will, she's powerless, as a blood curse held by all Amazons (or something, I had a whole reason for this but its slipped my mind).

[Riv86672]

Just don't make a depowered League like they did in JLA: Act of God *shudders*.

^^^Never heard of this and from I just read it doesn’t sound good.

[Sandy Hausler]

Green Lantern- the power ring has to be recharged and is a tool/weapon with limited uses including flight. It is not a "magic wishing ring" like was used way,way back in the past. And,of course,he's just human.

Doesn't the ring have to be recharged anymore? So what's the reason for the lantern he (or she) has?

[Brian Adkins]

By both being far more powerful than the rest with only these changes, a Wonder Woman who just can not fly and loses her sword is much stronger, much more durable, much faster, and so on than the rest of that Justice League put together except for Flash, and Flash would be even without his crazy hax still ridiculously fast and hit ridiculously hard.

Oh...she can have a sword,sure! lol

[Brian Adkins]

When Robin (Dick Grayson) moved out and went to college, Bruce closed down Wayne Manor and moved into the city, into his penthouse apartment atop the Wayne Foundation building, along with Alfred. He stopped using a lot of his devices and while he seemed to have a car (an experimental car at one point) it wasn't the old Batmobile. He did, a few times, return to the Batcave to use its resources, but he was usually shown living in his penthouse and swinging on Bat-ropes to get around the urban jungle. Eventually, by around the mid-1970s, there was now a new Batcave below the Wayne Foundation (a lot like in THE DARK KNIGHT) and there was a new Batmobile (although quite boring looking I must say). But in the early 1970s, they wanted to capture that feeling of Batman going back to the basics like in 1939.

That sounds so cool! I'd read that! Do you know specific issue numbers?

[Jim Kelly]

That sounds so cool! I'd read that! Do you know specific issue numbers?

The first part of the story begins in DETECTIVE COMICS 393 (November 1969) and continues into BATMAN 217 and then DETECTIVE COMICS 394--all written by Frank Robbins. Denny O'Neil begins as a Batman writer in the next issue, DETECTIVE COMICS 395--with Neal Adams and Dick Giordano art.

Events unfold from there, through all issues of BATMAN and DETECTIVE COMICS through 1970, 1971, 1972--including the introduction of Talia and her father Ra's al Ghul, head of the League of Assassins.

[TheRay]

I mostly agree with your choice of what to do with Superman, but I would let him keep his various senses. Just put some sort of a limit on them, like they need to be recharged or something. I don't think there's anything necessarily too OP with him having them, especially since he is the only one who has such powers and he is meant to be the most powerful member.

[Rightoya]

The other option is to shift her powerset a bit, to make her less of a flying brick and more of a balanced mythological powerhouse. Akin to that "Clark is power 10, Bruce is skill 10, Diana's 5/5" theory talked about earlier. In the same way we talk about J'onn focusing on his unique abilities and downplaying his Kryptonian-ish powers, I suggest Diana's physical strength and durability be reduced to mid-level (with Clark still being the top end, just on this reduced scale) and lose the ability to fly (she'd glide instead). But she'd gain the ability to travel to the god sphere/Olympus at will, even opening portals there if need be, be able to detect magic and lies, and could speak to animals. The invisible jet would be a military prototype designed to combat superhumans, which she'd control via a neural receiver in her tiara (when Steve isn't around to sidekick for her anyway). And she'd remain one of the most skilled combatant on earth with god-forged gear, so still the team badass. I'd bring back the notion that if she is bound against her will, she's powerless, as a blood curse held by all Amazons (or something, I had a whole reason for this but its slipped my mind).

Ugh that just sounds horrible, DC definitively don't needs even more excuses to turn Wonder Woman into a joke or jobber for the sake of Superman or Batman, they disrespect the whole point of the character enough already.

I don't think there's anything necessarily too OP with him having them, especially since he is the only one who has such powers and he is meant to be the most powerful member.

Martian Manhunter says hi for the senses, and Wonder Woman,Martian Manhunter, Flash, and Green Lantern say hi for power.

[WonderLight789]

I don't agree with the premise; if you don't want to read about ultra powerful heroes, read about other heroes.

It could be good for a storyline, either an Event or just an arc in a particular book. I've long dreamed of a Superman arc where he loses his powers but still has to deal with all his regular foes, with them at full power. Or an Event that does the same thing but on a larger scale. But as a new normal, hard pass. I like my crazy, high concept science/fantasy as much as I like my pulp flavored noir. People who don't want high concept can read Daredevil, Batman, Nightwing, most Spider-Man arcs, etc. They got options, and that's before we get into all the great indie books that work on that level.

I *would* however, very much support the idea of a Elseworlds miniseries, ongoing imprint, tv show, or film universe that works on this kind of level. I think, especially if you paired it up with a more retro and pulp aesthetic, that you'd have a damn good world to tell stories in. An old school, pulp flavored DCU where everything isn't a huge cosmic Crisis and local crime is still a concern? I'd read that, and I'd most certainly watch it....as long as I can return to my stupidly powerful Morrison flavored DCU afterwards. But I also think something like this would benefit from using old Golden Age characters as much as de-powered Leaguers. You want a less powerful League, just use Hourman, Mid-Nite, Sandman, etc.

But if you were to de-power the League, I'd just knock Clark back down to roughly Golden Age levels, reduce everyone else by an equal percentage, and call it good.

Clark loses a lot of the raw physicality, flight, and all the vision powers except x-ray, micro/telescopic, and heat. No weaknesses other than Kryptonite.

J'onn focuses more on telepathy, invisibility, and (limited) shape shifting. He'd technically have the usual powerset and be physically stronger than humans, but not on Clark's level (more mid-tier). Still weak to fire (psychological allergy).

Flash is "speed of sound" fast and loses all the crazy speed force tricks, like kinetic manipulation. I'd probably drop the concept of the speed force entirely. Can still run across water, and other things that're vaguely possible, just no more speed magic. No weakness, but a metabolism that forces him to consume a ridiculous amount of food. Less a weakness, more a complication.

Lantern has to recharge every solar rotation, has to focus on everything he's doing. The ring has an AI database, but it's not a co-pilot. Weakness is all about concentration and controlling emotion, especially fear. Get under GL's skin, make him worry or distract him, and you've got your opening.

Bruce goes back to being what he's supposed to be; the world's greatest detective. No more limitless sci-fi toys, infinite knowledge, and flawless skills in all things. He's not quite Olympic level in athletics and martial arts, not "world renowned" in the sciences, but he's a hell of a detective and he fights dirty.

Arthur.....I wouldn't change, other than just reducing his power levels appropriately. The trident wouldn't be as powerful, obviously. No need to bring back the old "has to be in water every few hours" thing, that's far too much.

With Diana I have two approaches. One is to just lower her power levels and gear to match Clark's, and otherwise leave her be. The other option is to shift her powerset a bit, to make her less of a flying brick and more of a balanced mythological powerhouse. Akin to that "Clark is power 10, Bruce is skill 10, Diana's 5/5" theory talked about earlier. In the same way we talk about J'onn focusing on his unique abilities and downplaying his Kryptonian-ish powers, I suggest Diana's physical strength and durability be reduced to mid-level (with Clark still being the top end, just on this reduced scale) and lose the ability to fly (she'd glide instead). But she'd gain the ability to travel to the god sphere/Olympus at will, even opening portals there if need be, be able to detect magic and lies, and could speak to animals. The invisible jet would be a military prototype designed to combat superhumans, which she'd control via a neural receiver in her tiara (when Steve isn't around to sidekick for her anyway). And she'd remain one of the most skilled combatant on earth with god-forged gear, so still the team badass. I'd bring back the notion that if she is bound against her will, she's powerless, as a blood curse held by all Amazons (or something, I had a whole reason for this but its slipped my mind).

Wonder Woman has been pathetically weak in terms of raw power performances in most of her appearances of the last 10 years. So your approach doesn't make any sense. She is already weak, totally helpless compared to superman and the other top heavy hitters as it is. Why some of you keep acting like she is portrayed as a powerhouse these days is beyond me. And her so called ''badass'' martial art skills are nowhere to be seen, and never make any differance in battle, everytime she fights somebody stronger than her, she bites the dust instantly. WW has been trapped in a depowered curse for years. And some of you think it is ok? Why? Because the white ''alpha'' male superman must be untouchable, otherwise the ego of some of his fans would break? Sigh

[The True Detective]

Wonder Woman has been pathetically weak in terms of raw power performances in most of her appearances of the last 10 years. So your approach doesn't make any sense. She is already weak, totally helpless compared to superman and the other top heavy hitters as it is. Why some of you keep acting like she is portrayed as a powerhouse these days is beyond me. And her so called ''badass'' martial art skills are nowhere to be seen, and never make any differance in battle, everytime she fights somebody stronger than her, she bites the dust instantly. WW has been trapped in a depowered curse for years. And some of you think it is ok? Why? Because the white ''alpha'' male superman must be untouchable, otherwise the ego of some of his fans would break? Sigh

White alpha male? Dude's not even human lol and yes I know he looks white but he isn't. Is every post of yours complaining about Wonder Woman not being strong enough? Will you not he happy until she is declared the strongest, greatest, bestest character ever created? Sounds like you want some kind of infallible untouchable Mary Sue who trumps everyone in every powered and skill category and not an actual character with flaws and foibles.

[Sutekh]

[Snip] With Diana I have two approaches. One is to just lower her power levels and gear to match Clark's, and otherwise leave her be. The other option is to shift her powerset a bit, to make her less of a flying brick and more of a balanced mythological powerhouse. Akin to that "Clark is power 10, Bruce is skill 10, Diana's 5/5" theory talked about earlier. In the same way we talk about J'onn focusing on his unique abilities and downplaying his Kryptonian-ish powers, I suggest Diana's physical strength and durability be reduced to mid-level (with Clark still being the top end, just on this reduced scale) and lose the ability to fly (she'd glide instead). But she'd gain the ability to travel to the god sphere/Olympus at will, even opening portals there if need be, be able to detect magic and lies, and could speak to animals. The invisible jet would be a military prototype designed to combat superhumans, which she'd control via a neural receiver in her tiara (when Steve isn't around to sidekick for her anyway). And she'd remain one of the most skilled combatant on earth with god-forged gear, so still the team badass. I'd bring back the notion that if she is bound against her will, she's powerless, as a blood curse held by all Amazons (or something, I had a whole reason for this but its slipped my mind).

I like the overall notion that with Superman and Manhunter not flying, Flash going up to supersonic, but not light speed, and GL requiring some concentration and will to use his wing and it not being 100% reliable always and on autopilot, Wonder Woman's jet might become more relevant to getting the team around. I'd definitely want to upgrade it and make it more like a stealth transport plane, invisible to radar and able to become optically invisible in the air, but also able to carry the entire team, at least, and perhaps a dozen civilians who need rescuing/transport? Steve could be the pilot of this stealth super-sonic transport, and be her Alfred, kinda/sorta, with a sort of open-ended government mandate to try and steer the League away from damaging US interests too much in their world-saving endeavors... (Since the US knows it doesn't have a snowballs chance in Hell of giving these people orders, it has instead offered them cooperation and gentle guidance, and Steve resists any orders that he thinks might compromise the team's fragile relationship with the government, which is no doubt full of fools who'd love to try and use them to deal with various off-book 'problems'.).

I'd definitely skip the powerless-when-shackled thing, and any stink of 'daughter of Zeus, got her strength from daddy.' She earned her powers, straight up, by winning a contest held by the Amazons for whom would be the Amazon champion / ambassador to 'Man's world.' Batman might just barely be her better in fighting (and certainly in fighting *dirty*, or equalizing fights with tech and tricks), but with her not-quite Superman strength and her not-quite Flash speed, she'd utterly school him in a fair fight. (OTOH, he avoids 'fair fights' on general principle, thanks to a life of showing up with a batarang to gunfights...)

[Rightoya]

Will you not he happy until she is declared the strongest, greatest, bestest character ever created?

But you're aware that you just described what many people think about Superman, and what Bat-god basically is, and that DC would rather declare Harley Quinn or probably even Aquaman to be that than even thinking about Wonder Woman, yes?

Sounds like you want some kind of infallible untouchable Mary Sue

Wonder Woman gets called a Mary Sue basically any time she does anything of note, like even basically on this forum as she fought Zod and Faora or as she lifted a magical rock for example, and Mary Sue is 1 of the most hypocritically used terms in general anyway.

who trumps everyone in every powered and skill category and not an actual character with flaws and foibles.

Wonder Woman was basically never even close to this, and 1 of the provingly biggest red flags in the past besides being oh so complicated was when writers talked about how perfect Wonder Woman allegedly is, or how they want to make her less perfect, more human, or give her flaws. And even if we limit that to power and skill, to this day i still don't understand how turning her skill basically into a questionable informed ability, letting her job to Superman or others like Aquaman, and let her villains job even to Batman or Bat-family characters, restrict her ill-defined true power with her bracelets, for a long time take the lasso powers away and basically replace it with a sword that she barely ever properly uses, turn her together with the Justice League in non-comic media like the DCEU into a pathetic joke next to Superman, let the like of Christopher Priest spice her up for Joe Lunchbox by letting her almost die from bullets that bounced off of Superman, making her inferior to her annoying younger brother and giving him the powers she should actually have, degrade her and the gods to basically Spider-man on mildly effective magical steroids at best action, and the countless of other examples especially since flashpoint made her any more interessting?

[bardkeep]

I could really rock with a full line of Golden Age books, which means GA power levels and character concepts.

Bring Superman back to lifting cars and outrunning trains level and reduce his durability to "nothing less than a bursting shell can penetrate his skin." Get rid of the extra powers he developed over time (no flight, no vision powers, no super breath, etc.). No Kryptonite weakness but obviously way less powerful than he is today. And with all of that, I'd bring back the GA characterization that honestly can't work with modern power levels - sort of a brute, running through the streets fighting for the little guy, going after corrupt businessmen and mobsters, beating up Nazis, racists, and domestic abusers. No aliens or gods or anything like that. Kinda like Grant Morrison's n52 Superman but somewhat less powerful.

I think people forget that Marston's Wonder Woman was pretty comparable in strength to the original Superman, she just used the bracelets to block bullets instead of tanking them - so I'd go with that. And she got her powers through "Amazon training" so all of the Amazons were comparably super-powered. The biggest difference is that she had a weakness where she lost her powers if her bracers were welded together by a man (and got way stronger and went berserk if her bracers were removed). I'd bring back those weaknesses, stick with the invisible jet, make her lasso the original mind control lasso rather than the modern lasso of truth, and lean into some of Marston's wackier sci-fi concepts (mental radios and healing rays). In terms of her stories, I'd bring back the Holliday Girls as her sidekicks and go all in on the goofy, wild stuff from her GA stories like fairy godmothers from Venus, astral walkabouts, and plenty of homerotic bondage games.

I don't really know enough about GA Flash or Green Lantern to know how their basic characterization or lore has changed but obviously power-wise bring them way down too.

[TheRay]

Martian Manhunter says hi for the senses, and Wonder Woman,Martian Manhunter, Flash, and Green Lantern say hi for power.

I’ll admit to being ignorant as to the extent of Martian Manhunter’s powers, but I don’t believe we’ve seen him use ice breath. I’d also like to amend the word “senses” in my post to say “breaths” as that’s what I thought of when I read “senses” in OPs post. However, that said, Martian Manhunter possesses the ability to alter the chemical makeup of his lungs, so he could have any type of breath he wants. So, point taken on that one.

As for the power, I’d have to say no. Superman is usually depicted as being able to cripple absolutely everyone, save for the fact that he holds back on purpose in his fights. So, I stand by the comment that he’s meant to be the strongest member.

[Ascended]

Wonder Woman's jet might become more relevant to getting the team around. I'd definitely want to upgrade it and make it more like a stealth transport plane, invisible to radar and able to become optically invisible in the air, but also able to carry the entire team, at least, and perhaps a dozen civilians who need rescuing/transport? Steve could be the pilot of this stealth super-sonic transport, and be her Alfred, kinda/sorta

I'd treat the jet as essentially a small flying HQ. It'd be somewhere between a bomber and a cargo plane, with plenty of room for the team, civilians in need of transport, etc. It'd have a small armory for Diana's gear (Steve would keep asking if he can have a shelf, for some fun "are we ready to move in together" parallels) and a small living area. Steve would set up a small kitchen of some kind, because back in the Golden Age he used to love to cook.

Plane itself would be invisible to radar and semi-invisible to the naked eye, with weapons designed to stop superhumans and super-sonic capability, making it faster than anyone on the team except Flash (who might be Barry or might be Jay here, I haven't decided).

Haven't quite settled on how Diana gets her hands on it, why she's allowed to keep a military prototype, or how the neural link comes into play because that's well beyond the scientific ability of the retro setting....but whatever, details.

Steve resists any orders that he thinks might compromise the team's fragile relationship with the government, which is no doubt full of fools who'd love to try and use them to deal with various off-book 'problems'.).

I was thinking something along those lines, kinda. If I'm writing a Golden Age League type of book then they're not gonna be friendly with authority. This is the "treat people right, Metropolis!" era of heroism so the heroes don't give a rat's ass what the government thinks. Far as they're concerned politicians are half the problem. What I *was* gonna do, and you sorta hit on the same idea, was have the government try to use Steve's ties to Diana to influence the League. The heroes won't do what a politician tells them, but they like and trust Steve, so the government wants to use him as a lever of control. Steve wouldn't be cool with that of course, and we'd get some fun plots and tensions as he's pulled between duty and friendship.

I'd definitely skip the powerless-when-shackled thing, and any stink of 'daughter of Zeus, got her strength from daddy.' She earned her powers, straight up, by winning a contest held by the Amazons for whom would be the Amazon champion / ambassador to 'Man's world.' Batman might just barely be her better in fighting (and certainly in fighting *dirty*, or equalizing fights with tech and tricks), but with her not-quite Superman strength and her not-quite Flash speed, she'd utterly school him in a fair fight.

No, no "daughter of Zeus" at all. We'd stick to the old origin; Diana is made from clay and given life by Hera, Aphrodite, and Athena. And I wouldn't have Diana leave the Island because of love for Steve. She leaves because Steve's arrival portends a great crisis coming; Ares escaping Tartarus or something, and her mission is to stop the threat and then teach mankind to accept the Amazonian philosophy of loving submission.

Her powers are Amazonian standard, they're all on her level so she won the Contest fair and square.

The "shackled" weakness is from the Marston days, so I'd keep it. There's a deep history and symbolism behind that weakness that ties into the Amazon's betrayal and decimation by Hercules and it's just too rich a narrative element to not use, I think. Plus, Diana's such a badass compared to the others here there has to be *some* way to slow her down. But this weakness definitely wouldn't be as easy to exploit as some of those old comics made it look.

She'd kick Batman's ass in a fair fight, even if you took her powers out of it. She's centuries old and was trained by one of the greatest warrior cultures in history. Nobody on the League is her equal in combat, you gotta look at people like Lady Shiva or Richard Dragon to find people better than her. Then when you add in her powers, and then the armor and gear, there's nobody on earth who can reliably take her in a straight battle. Guys like Clark or GL might win a sparring match now and then but that's as good as it gets for them.

Batman, in my story here, isn't among the world's best fighters. He's very good, but not *that* good. He's a detective first, criminologist second, with "fighter" somewhere further down the list. I really wanna get back to that noir/mystery aesthetic with Bruce, so if he's on the front lines throwing punches I've already done something wrong.

And Robin would absolutely be a part of this, of course.