A De-powered Justice League

[Ascended]

Wonder Woman has been pathetically weak in terms of raw power performances in most of her appearances of the last 10 years. So your approach doesn't make any sense. She is already weak, totally helpless compared to superman and the other top heavy hitters as it is. Why some of you keep acting like she is portrayed as a powerhouse these days is beyond me. And her so called ''badass'' martial art skills are nowhere to be seen, and never make any differance in battle, everytime she fights somebody stronger than her, she bites the dust instantly. WW has been trapped in a depowered curse for years. And some of you think it is ok? Why? Because the white ''alpha'' male superman must be untouchable, otherwise the ego of some of his fans would break? Sigh

Yup, this is the type of response I expected.

Y'know what I don't get? I look at what I've written here, about diversifying Diana's powerset, and I include some stuff that is FAR beyond what I suggest giving the others. I've made it so Clark can't reach the next continent, but made it so Diana can reach other *realities.* I reduce and remove powers from everyone else, but give her more. I call her the team badass and best warrior. I literally say she's better than Batman. I give her a metahuman-killing super plane that she can fly with her mind *while* doing everything else. But because I suggest that she can't bench-press as much as one other person (and since I nerfed J'onn's strength Diana would *still* be second strongest, just with a wider gap), somehow I'm screwing her over and making her less powerful because "fragile male ego" or some sh*t.

Marston created her to be Superman's equal, yes, and under his pen she was just as strong and has a few feats that actually top what Clark's early adventures had. But here's the thing; this means Diana is defined by a man, and one who isn't even part of her franchise. He is the metric she is measured by. And she won't be allowed to surpass him, just as nobody gets to be faster than Barry, a better detective than Bruce, etc. Does nobody see the problem there? A feminist icon....measured by how she rates next to a dude. And look at how well that's worked out for her.

So yes, I suggest removing Diana from that conversation. So she can start her own. So she can be the best at what she does, rather than eternally be #2. So her greatest and most important powers are based on *her* story, not a man's. And what I suggest is rooted in Marston's vision of a mythological demigod bound by love and compassion, I'm just looking more at the "myth" than the physical side of it. Still equal, but different.

But worry not. If, somehow, I ever ended up actually writing for DC, and if, somehow, this were a book I actually wrote? I wouldn't change Diana's powerset. I know how the fans react to it.

Moving on from Diana.....I'm not sure which Lantern I'd use. Given the pulp/retro aesthetic I'm envisioning, I kinda wanna use Guy as an old school Irish cop kinda thing...but given the team would, generally, be more rabble rousing, the straight-laced and down-to-business John might be better.

[WonderLight789]

White alpha male? Dude's not even human lol and yes I know he looks white but he isn't. Is every post of yours complaining about Wonder Woman not being strong enough? Will you not he happy until she is declared the strongest, greatest, bestest character ever created? Sounds like you want some kind of infallible untouchable Mary Sue who trumps everyone in every powered and skill category and not an actual character with flaws and foibles.

Mary sue like superman you mean? WW has been weak and constantly losing battles and struggling 90% of the timne for a decade now. Superman is white and represenbts the typical white american dream. He was made to be morally perfect and the strongest dude. The one that is always right. The Jesus Christ. So mary sue superman should have an equal in mary sue WW. Yes. I want her to be the powerhouse that DC says she is. The best fighter, equal to SM in power and all that they say about her. I want to see in on panel, not just lipservice.

[WonderLight789]

Yup, this is the type of response I expected.

Y'know what I don't get? I look at what I've written here, about diversifying Diana's powerset, and I include some stuff that is FAR beyond what I suggest giving the others. I've made it so Clark can't reach the next continent, but made it so Diana can reach other *realities.* I reduce and remove powers from everyone else, but give her more. I call her the team badass and best warrior. I literally say she's better than Batman. I give her a metahuman-killing super plane that she can fly with her mind *while* doing everything else. But because I suggest that she can't bench-press as much as one other person (and since I nerfed J'onn's strength Diana would *still* be second strongest, just with a wider gap), somehow I'm screwing her over and making her less powerful because "fragile male ego" or some sh*t.

Marston created her to be Superman's equal, yes, and under his pen she was just as strong and has a few feats that actually top what Clark's early adventures had. But here's the thing; this means Diana is defined by a man, and one who isn't even part of her franchise. He is the metric she is measured by. And she won't be allowed to surpass him, just as nobody gets to be faster than Barry, a better detective than Bruce, etc. Does nobody see the problem there? A feminist icon....measured by how she rates next to a dude. And look at how well that's worked out for her.

So yes, I suggest removing Diana from that conversation. So she can start her own. So she can be the best at what she does, rather than eternally be #2. So her greatest and most important powers are based on *her* story, not a man's. And what I suggest is rooted in Marston's vision of a mythological demigod bound by love and compassion, I'm just looking more at the "myth" than the physical side of it. Still equal, but different.

But worry not. If, somehow, I ever ended up actually writing for DC, and if, somehow, this were a book I actually wrote? I wouldn't change Diana's powerset. I know how the fans react to it.

Moving on from Diana.....I'm not sure which Lantern I'd use. Given the pulp/retro aesthetic I'm envisioning, I kinda wanna use Guy as an old school Irish cop kinda thing...but given the team would, generally, be more rabble rousing, the straight-laced and down-to-business John might be better.

Please. You made her half Sm and half BM. A feminist icon has to settle to be only 50% of the best men. Give me a break. And WW these days is not second place. Aquaman is stronger, so Is mary marvel, jason (according to robinson) Orion, Lobo, Mongul, etc. She can die from bullets. Get hurt from a car crash, etc. Also skills never helped to avoid gettig destroyed when facing an stronger opponent. So let's not fool ourselves. WW will never be portrayed as more than just an ant next to superman and other heavy hitters, no matter how much ''skills in combat'' she has. They don't ever make a difference in her favor. And you think she needs to be more depowered? Sigh

[Rightoya]

I’ll admit to being ignorant as to the extent of Martian Manhunter’s powers, but I don’t believe we’ve seen him use ice breath. I’d also like to amend the word “senses” in my post to say “breaths” as that’s what I thought of when I read “senses” in OPs post. However, that said, Martian Manhunter possesses the ability to alter the chemical makeup of his lungs, so he could have any type of breath he wants. So, point taken on that one.

Martian Manhunter has if anything even more senses than Superman.

As for the power, IÂ’d have to say no. Superman is usually depicted as being able to cripple absolutely everyone, save for the fact that he holds back on purpose in his fights. So, I stand by the comment that heÂ’s meant to be the strongest member.

I am not talking about trash like the DCEU Justice League, but about what these characters are supposed to be. Wonder Woman is definitively not meant to be less powerful than Superman, it is in fact the core of the character to not be less powerful than Superman:

“Not even girls want to be girls so long as our feminine archetype lacks force, strength, and power. Not wanting to be girls, they don't want to be tender, submissive, peace-loving as good women are. Women's strong qualities have become despised because of their weakness. The obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with all the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman.”

― William Moulton Marston

, Flash is supposed to be the fastest superhero which with his hax makes him the truly most powerful without jobbing if we are being honest, Green Lantern is supposed to have the most powerful weapon in the universe and Hal Jordan the most willpower, which makes it very illogical for him to be less powerful than Superman, and Martian Manhunter has a less clear theme but is kind of supposed to be the most powerful telepatic superhero with kryptonian like powers and more. And absolutely all of them hold back, just like most superheroes do.

Yup, this is the type of response I expected.

Even though you are just talking about an Elseworlds, you should be aware how often DC and WB have nerfed in Elseworlds or other media, and how bad these versions of Wonder Woman more often than not were, so why should Wonder Woman fans want to see that again?

Y'know what I don't get? I look at what I've written here, about diversifying Diana's powerset, and I include some stuff that is FAR beyond what I suggest giving the others. I've made it so Clark can't reach the next continent, but made it so Diana can reach other *realities.*

That is a power Wonder Woman had already, and it is limited in a way that makes it less of a power and more of a story-element, it adds not much a random magical artifact couldn't also do except for a story except we assume Wonder Woman uses it to teleport forth and back while mid-combat.

I reduce and remove powers from everyone else, but give her more.

Bringing back 1 power that she had already while reducing others is not really giving her more.

I call her the team badass and best warrior.

DC does that all the time, which makes how they actually portray her often just even worse.

I literally say she's better than Batman.

You have said that she is a 5 to Batman's 10 in skill, her being more powerful than a peak human should be a given for a super-powered character.

I give her a metahuman-killing super plane that she can fly with her mind *while* doing everything else.

Wonder woman is not a Green Lantern or Blue Beetle, putting most of her power into an object or vehicle don't truly fits.

But because I suggest that she can't bench-press as much as one other person (and since I nerfed J'onn's strength Diana would *still* be second strongest, just with a wider gap),

You called her a 5 to Superman's 10, meaning you would create a completely new character who is nothing special in skill or in power and call her Wonder Woman, and i don't get how that should improve anything? Who wants to see a Wonder Woman who isn't actually Wonder Woman, that just sounds like the mod era all over again to me, and knowing DC i envision it would end up with a wannabe Kratos who jobs to Batman all the time.

somehow I'm screwing her over and making her less powerful because "fragile male ego" or some sh*t.

No, that is what the people of DC or WB often did, you've just posted an idea, although i personally think it is a horrible idea.

Marston created her to be Superman's equal, yes, and under his pen she was just as strong and has a few feats that actually top what Clark's early adventures had. But here's the thing; this means Diana is defined by a man, and one who isn't even part of her franchise.

And how is making her explicitly inferior in different categories to 2 men that are not part of her franchise, an improvement?

He is the metric she is measured by. And she won't be allowed to surpass him, just as nobody gets to be faster than Barry, a better detective than Bruce, etc.

But she don't even needs to surpass Superman's power and even less the speed of Flash, to be Superman's equal, or what am i missing?

Does nobody see the problem there? A feminist icon....measured by how she rates next to a dude. And look at how well that's worked out for her. So yes, I suggest removing Diana from that conversation. So she can start her own.

How is basically surrendering to what DC in decades full of sexism and incompetence did going to improve the situation?

So she can be the best at what she does

Which is what exactly?

, rather than eternally be #2. So her greatest and most important powers are based on *her* story, not a man's. And what I suggest is rooted in Marston's vision of a mythological demigod bound by love and compassion, I'm just looking more at the "myth" than the physical side of it.
Still equal, but different.

I don't get it, is she going to become basically a divine sorceress like Circe or how is a Wonder Woman with middling skill and middling physical power different but equal to Superman?

But worry not. If, somehow, I ever ended up actually writing for DC, and if, somehow, this were a book I actually wrote? I wouldn't change Diana's powerset. I know how the fans react to it.

Well what do you think would happen if you write Superman and turn him into a Hulk clone for example?

[bardkeep]

Marston created her to be Superman's equal, yes, and under his pen she was just as strong and has a few feats that actually top what Clark's early adventures had. But here's the thing; this means Diana is defined by a man, and one who isn't even part of her franchise. He is the metric she is measured by. And she won't be allowed to surpass him, just as nobody gets to be faster than Barry, a better detective than Bruce, etc. Does nobody see the problem there? A feminist icon....measured by how she rates next to a dude. And look at how well that's worked out for her.

So yes, I suggest removing Diana from that conversation. So she can start her own. So she can be the best at what she does, rather than eternally be #2. So her greatest and most important powers are based on *her* story, not a man's. And what I suggest is rooted in Marston's vision of a mythological demigod bound by love and compassion, I'm just looking more at the "myth" than the physical side of it. Still equal, but different.

Loath as I am to get involved because I'm not into power scaling like that and think this conversation is getting out of hand...

Fiction is informed by real life, and in the real world women's successes are constantly compared to men's. Especially in a male-dominated genre, there's no change or specialization that'll keep that from being a problem. Here's just one example: Phil Jimenez once mentioned in an interview that he tried deem Diana DC's best fighter so she'd have a niche, but DC pushed back saying, "Okay, but she can only be the best fighter on the ground. Superman has to be the best fighter in the air." And Superman will always be the specific point of comparison - she's the most iconic woman and he's the most iconic man, she'll always be stacked up to him with the assumption of her inferiority (even though people have no issues deeming Shazam his physical equal).

(I'll admit that this slightly struck a nerve - I'm a female bassist and the "compliment" I get most frequently is "wow, if I hadn't seen you I never would've thought you were a girl!" I wouldn't get compared to men if I played flute or violin or sang, but I really don't think finding a separate lane is the more feminist or empowering option. Obviously you weren't trying to say that but I think it's an implication you missed.)

I agree that she's much better on her own, though - making her JSA secretary on day 1 should've been a sign. Even if you toss out the issue with her always being #2, her stories are so much better when there aren't any bog-standard superheroics and the rest of the DC universe isn't involved.

[Ascended]

You have said that she is a 5 to Batman's 10 in skill, her being more powerful than a peak human should be a given for a super-powered character.

Oh, you thought that was a literal comparison of levels? No, that's a "balance" thing. It's saying that Diana's skill *equals* her power, rather than saying one is all power or all skill.

Which in and of itself is kind of a misleading concept, since all of these people require significant skill to operate, but that's getting into details that aren't really pertinent. I always thought it was an inelegant expression, as it reduces some, like Clark, to uselessness without their power and diminishes others, like Bruce, who *do* have resources and "power" to call on. But the basic idea is that as powerful as Diana is, she's just as skilled, which is a balance very few characters manage in practical application.

Wonder woman is not a Green Lantern or Blue Beetle, putting most of her power into an object or vehicle don't truly fits.

Nobody said "most." It's just another tool in the arsenal, like the lasso. I just suggest making it relevant again.

But she don't even needs to surpass Superman's power and even less the speed of Flash, to be Superman's equal, or what am i missing?

Mostly, it seems, that "strength" doesn't always have to mean "muscle."

How is basically surrendering to what DC in decades full of sexism and incompetence did going to improve the situation?

How will keeping her in a direct comparison she'll never benefit from going to improve anything? I'm down for Diana getting her due at DC, I'm as sick of her mistreatment as everyone else. But instead of bashing our heads against the same wall I'm looking for a work-around.

I don't get it, is she going to become basically a divine sorceress like Circe

Not a wizard style spellcaster, no. What I suggest is more like giving her magic-based super senses, as well as a few additional tricks like traversing the god sphere, being able to communicate with anything/speak any language, etc.

Mostly it's all abilities and powers she had at one point in her history or another, I'm just suggesting giving them all back to her and having her actually use them.

I really don't think finding a separate lane is the more feminist or empowering option. Obviously you weren't trying to say that but I think it's an implication you missed.

It's an implication I may have misjudged but it's not one I didn't think of. In this, I'm bending to the idea that in DC, there's a hierarchy and everyone has a particular thing where they're the best and nobody is allowed to surpass them. Jiminenz wanted her to be the best warrior but I think DC leans into Diana's warrior side too much as it is and I don't want to encourage that. Instead I suggest leaning into her demigod/myth status.

It's not the most empowering or feminist ideal out there, to remove her from the "strength" conversation. But I think it's a "rock/hard place" situation; the big names at DC get to be the best at what they do...except Diana. You pull her out of the "strength" debate, and it's not empowering, no. But I don't think her eternally being at #2 is overly empowering either, especially when she's the only big name who can't claim a first place trophy somewhere, nor do I like that her power levels depend on Clark's limits. But maybe I'm wrong and what I think I'm aiming for isn't what I think it is, it happens sometimes. In any case, even if I did write for DC I wouldn't give this a try, I know how the fans react (clearly ).

And the comparisons with Clark will never end, no. He's the alpha and omega of the genre and the greatest man to Diana's greatest woman. But there's comparisons, and then there's comparisons y'know? And I think the more that puts Diana in her own territory the better.

Thread's already derailed enough as it is so I'll try to make this my last statement on the idea, just so I know folks get what I'm putting down. It'll still be an unpopular opinion of course but hopefully this will erase any misunderstandings my poor explanations may've caused.

Using a 1-10 scale just for clarity's sake; if Clark's strength/durability is a 10, Diana is a 6, J'onn would be a 4 here, Arthur would be a 3. With the armor and its enchantments (I did mention the gear right?) Diana's strength/durability becomes a 8 or 9. Shazam, if I were to introduce him, would be an 8 or so. So Diana's strength/durability doesn't really change in application, but some of it comes from the armor (which has always had enchantments of one kind or another so this isn't new).

Diana's combat skill would be a 10, with Bruce at a 7/8 or so, Arthur at a 6, etc. Shiva and Cass Cain, if I were to include them, would probably rank around 9, Black Canary around 8, etc. For the inevitable comparison, Clark would probably be around a 5 or 6, a better fighter than most and maybe better than you'd expect but far from any "best ever" lists.

Utility-wise someone like GL would be at a 10 and J'onn would be at a 8 or 9, Clark would be around a 7 or 8, while Diana's various "magic senses," plane, specialized gear, ability to realm-jump, etc., would put her around a 7 or 8 as well.

Seems like I'm suggesting making her plenty powerful if you ask me, simply by leaning on the stuff she already has but isn't used properly. But I'm not trying to derail the thread more than it is so y'all can call me an idiot or a sexist or whichever you feel is most appropriate and we can move on, yes?

[Stanlos]

Yup, this is the type of response I expected.

Y'know what I don't get? I look at what I've written here, about diversifying Diana's powerset, and I include some stuff that is FAR beyond what I suggest giving the others. I've made it so Clark can't reach the next continent, but made it so Diana can reach other *realities.* I reduce and remove powers from everyone else, but give her more. I call her the team badass and best warrior. I literally say she's better than Batman. I give her a metahuman-killing super plane that she can fly with her mind *while* doing everything else. But because I suggest that she can't bench-press as much as one other person (and since I nerfed J'onn's strength Diana would *still* be second strongest, just with a wider gap), somehow I'm screwing her over and making her less powerful because "fragile male ego" or some sh*t.

Marston created her to be Superman's equal, yes, and under his pen she was just as strong and has a few feats that actually top what Clark's early adventures had. But here's the thing; this means Diana is defined by a man, and one who isn't even part of her franchise. He is the metric she is measured by. And she won't be allowed to surpass him, just as nobody gets to be faster than Barry, a better detective than Bruce, etc. Does nobody see the problem there? A feminist icon....measured by how she rates next to a dude. And look at how well that's worked out for her.

So yes, I suggest removing Diana from that conversation. So she can start her own. So she can be the best at what she does, rather than eternally be #2. So her greatest and most important powers are based on *her* story, not a man's. And what I suggest is rooted in Marston's vision of a mythological demigod bound by love and compassion, I'm just looking more at the "myth" than the physical side of it. Still equal, but different.

But worry not. If, somehow, I ever ended up actually writing for DC, and if, somehow, this were a book I actually wrote? I wouldn't change Diana's powerset. I know how the fans react to it.

Moving on from Diana.....I'm not sure which Lantern I'd use. Given the pulp/retro aesthetic I'm envisioning, I kinda wanna use Guy as an old school Irish cop kinda thing...but given the team would, generally, be more rabble rousing, the straight-laced and down-to-business John might be better.

Regarding this, I just want to point out that Marston intended her to be ANY superman's equal at a minimum initially. He started out the same place as the creatives crafting Supes and Cap when he first applied for the patent. He amended the application as his ideas evolved and we got the whole superior to thing, though he did simplify her name and removed the "Suprema" part and just made her "the Wonder Woman".

I often wonder whether his ideas would have shifted again when his homelife experienced turmoil, and how they would have changed.

[Brian Adkins]

The first part of the story begins in DETECTIVE COMICS 393 (November 1969) and continues into BATMAN 217 and then DETECTIVE COMICS 394--all written by Frank Robbins. Denny O'Neil begins as a Batman writer in the next issue, DETECTIVE COMICS 395--with Neal Adams and Dick Giordano art.

Events unfold from there, through all issues of BATMAN and DETECTIVE COMICS through 1970, 1971, 1972--including the introduction of Talia and her father Ra's al Ghul, head of the League of Assassins.

Aha! I KNEW it! lol I just knew the Denny O' Neil stuff would be a big part of it! Thanks!

[Brian Adkins]

I could really rock with a full line of Golden Age books, which means GA power levels and character concepts.

Bring Superman back to lifting cars and outrunning trains level and reduce his durability to "nothing less than a bursting shell can penetrate his skin." Get rid of the extra powers he developed over time (no flight, no vision powers, no super breath, etc.). No Kryptonite weakness but obviously way less powerful than he is today. And with all of that, I'd bring back the GA characterization that honestly can't work with modern power levels - sort of a brute, running through the streets fighting for the little guy, going after corrupt businessmen and mobsters, beating up Nazis, racists, and domestic abusers. No aliens or gods or anything like that. Kinda like Grant Morrison's n52 Superman but somewhat less powerful.

I think people forget that Marston's Wonder Woman was pretty comparable in strength to the original Superman, she just used the bracelets to block bullets instead of tanking them - so I'd go with that. And she got her powers through "Amazon training" so all of the Amazons were comparably super-powered. The biggest difference is that she had a weakness where she lost her powers if her bracers were welded together by a man (and got way stronger and went berserk if her bracers were removed). I'd bring back those weaknesses, stick with the invisible jet, make her lasso the original mind control lasso rather than the modern lasso of truth, and lean into some of Marston's wackier sci-fi concepts (mental radios and healing rays). In terms of her stories, I'd bring back the Holliday Girls as her sidekicks and go all in on the goofy, wild stuff from her GA stories like fairy godmothers from Venus, astral walkabouts, and plenty of homerotic bondage games.

I don't really know enough about GA Flash or Green Lantern to know how their basic characterization or lore has changed but obviously power-wise bring them way down too.

I'm with you except for the "bondage" and "being shackled by a man makes her weak and crazy." I don't really think that would go over with today's audience.

[Ascended]

I often wonder whether his ideas would have shifted again when his homelife experienced turmoil, and how they would have changed.

I think everyone's ideas shift with time, honestly. We're always growing as people, experiencing new things. That influences our creative ideas too.

I've always been curious about what Marston would've written if he hadn't been so confined by social norms. Diana was somewhat scandalous for the times, practically counter-culture. Not just the feminist overtones, but the S&M stuff, the loving submission philosophy, etc. And that was Marston holding back, writing for a more conservative audience. His personal life was much more wild. The stuff he wrote with Diana seems like it was just scratching the surface. What the hell would that man have written if the audience had been more open minded?

[WonderLight789]

Oh, you thought that was a literal comparison of levels? No, that's a "balance" thing. It's saying that Diana's skill *equals* her power, rather than saying one is all power or all skill.

Which in and of itself is kind of a misleading concept, since all of these people require significant skill to operate, but that's getting into details that aren't really pertinent. I always thought it was an inelegant expression, as it reduces some, like Clark, to uselessness without their power and diminishes others, like Bruce, who *do* have resources and "power" to call on. But the basic idea is that as powerful as Diana is, she's just as skilled, which is a balance very few characters manage in practical application.



Nobody said "most." It's just another tool in the arsenal, like the lasso. I just suggest making it relevant again.



Mostly, it seems, that "strength" doesn't always have to mean "muscle."



How will keeping her in a direct comparison she'll never benefit from going to improve anything? I'm down for Diana getting her due at DC, I'm as sick of her mistreatment as everyone else. But instead of bashing our heads against the same wall I'm looking for a work-around.



Not a wizard style spellcaster, no. What I suggest is more like giving her magic-based super senses, as well as a few additional tricks like traversing the god sphere, being able to communicate with anything/speak any language, etc.

Mostly it's all abilities and powers she had at one point in her history or another, I'm just suggesting giving them all back to her and having her actually use them.



It's an implication I may have misjudged but it's not one I didn't think of. In this, I'm bending to the idea that in DC, there's a hierarchy and everyone has a particular thing where they're the best and nobody is allowed to surpass them. Jiminenz wanted her to be the best warrior but I think DC leans into Diana's warrior side too much as it is and I don't want to encourage that. Instead I suggest leaning into her demigod/myth status.

It's not the most empowering or feminist ideal out there, to remove her from the "strength" conversation. But I think it's a "rock/hard place" situation; the big names at DC get to be the best at what they do...except Diana. You pull her out of the "strength" debate, and it's not empowering, no. But I don't think her eternally being at #2 is overly empowering either, especially when she's the only big name who can't claim a first place trophy somewhere, nor do I like that her power levels depend on Clark's limits.

And the comparisons with Clark will never end, no. He's the alpha and omega of the genre and the greatest man to Diana's greatest woman. But there's comparisons, and then there's comparisons y'know? And I think the more that puts Diana in her own territory the better.

Thread's already derailed enough as it is so I'll try to make this my last statement on the idea, just so I know folks get what I'm putting down. It'll still be an unpopular opinion of course but hopefully this will erase any misunderstandings my poor explanations may've caused.

Using a 1-10 scale just for clarity's sake; if Clark's strength/durability is a 10, Diana is a 6, J'onn would be a 4 here, Arthur would be a 3. With the armor and its enchantments (I did mention the gear right?) Diana's strength/durability becomes a 8 or 9. Shazam, if I were to introduce him, would be an 8 or so. So Diana's strength/durability doesn't really change in application, but some of it comes from the armor (which has always had enchantments of one kind or another so this isn't new).

Diana's combat skill would be a 10, with Bruce at a 7/8 or so, Arthur at a 6, etc. Shiva and Cass Cain, if I were to include them, would probably rank around 9, Black Canary around 8, etc. For the inevitable comparison, Clark would probably be around a 5 or 6, a better fighter than most and maybe better than you'd expect but far from any "best ever" lists.

Utility-wise someone like GL would be at a 10 and J'onn would be at a 8 or 9, Clark would be around a 7 or 8, while Diana's various "magic senses," plane, specialized gear, ability to realm-jump, etc., would put her around a 7 or 8 as well.

Seems like I'm suggesting making her plenty powerful if you ask me, simply by leaning on the stuff she already has but isn't used properly. But I'm not trying to derail the thread more than it is so y'all can call me an idiot or a sexist or whichever you feel is most appropriate and we can move on, yes?

Number 2? What makes you think WW is second best? She isn't. Power wise many male characters these day destroy her in terms of physical strength and raw power. Skill wise she has no important skills feats in the last 12 years. She is just average. Any decent martial art character has more and better skill feats than her these days. WW has been for more than a decade, a middle of the road mess that does not excel at anything. And why she is only a 6 in durability without armor, while shazam is an 8? That is your vision of doing her character justice? Always below male characters like shazam, that have the same power source as her? Sighg.

[Ascended]

Number 2? What makes you think WW is second best?

Then you'd be in luck if I ever somehow ended up writing her!

[WonderLight789]

Then you'd be in luck if I ever somehow ended up writing her!

Sorry, but i don't settle for second best.

[Ascended]

Moving on from Diana, I feel like there's some characters out there who don't really "fit" a fully powered League, like thematically or whatever, but would work well in a lower powered one. Or if not the League specifically then a low power setting.

Like, Human Bomb. Fun character, good powerset, but he's not what people would usually consider League material. Something about him just doesn't jive with a typical JLA. But in a low power setting where even Clark and Diana have to worry about heavy artillery? Bomb starts to look like a hard-hitting A-lister you'd want on your team. Even if you reduce Bomb's power to keep it in-line with the lessened League, he's still gonna hit as hard as a tank.

If anyone is curious what that could look like, Google the anime My Hero Academia and look for fight scenes with a character called Bakugo.

[Stanlos]

Martian Manhunter has if anything even more senses than Superman.



I am not talking about trash like the DCEU Justice League, but about what these characters are supposed to be. Wonder Woman is definitively not meant to be less powerful than Superman, it is in fact the core of the character to not be less powerful than Superman:

“Not even girls want to be girls so long as our feminine archetype lacks force, strength, and power. Not wanting to be girls, they don't want to be tender, submissive, peace-loving as good women are. Women's strong qualities have become despised because of their weakness. The obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with all the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman.”

― William Moulton Marston

, Flash is supposed to be the fastest superhero which with his hax makes him the truly most powerful without jobbing if we are being honest, Green Lantern is supposed to have the most powerful weapon in the universe and Hal Jordan the most willpower, which makes it very illogical for him to be less powerful than Superman, and Martian Manhunter has a less clear theme but is kind of supposed to be the most powerful telepatic superhero with kryptonian like powers and more. And absolutely all of them hold back, just like most superheroes do.



Even though you are just talking about an Elseworlds, you should be aware how often DC and WB have nerfed in Elseworlds or other media, and how bad these versions of Wonder Woman more often than not were, so why should Wonder Woman fans want to see that again?



That is a power Wonder Woman had already, and it is limited in a way that makes it less of a power and more of a story-element, it adds not much a random magical artifact couldn't also do except for a story except we assume Wonder Woman uses it to teleport forth and back while mid-combat.



Bringing back 1 power that she had already while reducing others is not really giving her more.



DC does that all the time, which makes how they actually portray her often just even worse.



You have said that she is a 5 to Batman's 10 in skill, her being more powerful than a peak human should be a given for a super-powered character.



Wonder woman is not a Green Lantern or Blue Beetle, putting most of her power into an object or vehicle don't truly fits.



You called her a 5 to Superman's 10, meaning you would create a completely new character who is nothing special in skill or in power and call her Wonder Woman, and i don't get how that should improve anything? Who wants to see a Wonder Woman who isn't actually Wonder Woman, that just sounds like the mod era all over again to me, and knowing DC i envision it would end up with a wannabe Kratos who jobs to Batman all the time.



No, that is what the people of DC or WB often did, you've just posted an idea, although i personally think it is a horrible idea.



And how is making her explicitly inferior in different categories to 2 men that are not part of her franchise, an improvement?



But she don't even needs to surpass Superman's power and even less the speed of Flash, to be Superman's equal, or what am i missing?



How is basically surrendering to what DC in decades full of sexism and incompetence did going to improve the situation?



Which is what exactly?



I don't get it, is she going to become basically a divine sorceress like Circe or how is a Wonder Woman with middling skill and middling physical power different but equal to Superman?



Well what do you think would happen if you write Superman and turn him into a Hulk clone for example?

There is a lot of 'suppose' in this post. When you say that, are you speaking of some real world source or authority (such as historical record of the character'screation)? Or fan wishes?