A De-powered Justice League

[j9ac9k]

Personally, I think it'd be fun to just get rid of Billy Batson and have Wonder Woman permanently possess the powers of Shazam and absorb that mythology into her own, since they're not so incongruous. Then she'd definitely be the most powerful.

[Sutekh]

Personally, I think it'd be fun to just get rid of Billy Batson and have Wonder Woman permanently possess the powers of Shazam and absorb that mythology into her own, since they're not so incongruous. Then she'd definitely be the most powerful.

I've heard her described as having the strength of Herakles and the speed of Hermes before, which is pretty much textbook 'Shazam' style powers, so that would make sense.

Although I'd be amused by an Amazon empowered by the *goddesses* of the Olympians, and not the boy gods. Hera, Aphrodite, Hestia, Athena, Demeter, Artemis. Enspell people with beauty from Aphrodite. Supreme archer from Artemis. Probably plant control from Demeter. Hestia, now that's an interesting one, hearth and home? Create fire and stone walls? Sounds like a mash up of Fire and Terra! Athena, mastery of skills and crafts? (Instantly understands almost anything, like Shazam's 'wisdom of Solomon' on crack? "Why yes, I do know how to fix this wormhole generator!")

[Stanlos]

Personally, I think it'd be fun to just get rid of Billy Batson and have Wonder Woman permanently possess the powers of Shazam and absorb that mythology into her own, since they're not so incongruous. Then she'd definitely be the most powerful.

This is a no for me. For my druthers,if we MUST change them, they should lean into Marstons ideas. She and her sisters derive their powers from the mental discipline of Amazon training. This enables them to equal any God in physical attributes. WW's legend meanwhile remains the same--Stronger than Hercules, Swifter than Hermes. In this way we get the ultimate evolution Marston wanted AND Captain Marvel's uniqueness of wielding the ACTUAL powers of the heroes and legends remains unique to the Marvel's via the Shazam pact.

That also opens the door to incorporate Lynda Carter's interpretation based on where she was coming from when she embodied the role.

However, I prefer the evolution Rucka used joining Perez and Byrne by having Diana be "designed by the Gods". That is ALL KINDS OF AWESOME and has SO MUCH STORY POTENTIAL.

[Brian Adkins]

Moving on from Diana, I feel like there's some characters out there who don't really "fit" a fully powered League, like thematically or whatever, but would work well in a lower powered one. Or if not the League specifically then a low power setting.

Like, Human Bomb. Fun character, good powerset, but he's not what people would usually consider League material. Something about him just doesn't jive with a typical JLA. But in a low power setting where even Clark and Diana have to worry about heavy artillery? Bomb starts to look like a hard-hitting A-lister you'd want on your team. Even if you reduce Bomb's power to keep it in-line with the lessened League, he's still gonna hit as hard as a tank.

If anyone is curious what that could look like, Google the anime My Hero Academia and look for fight scenes with a character called Bakugo.

Going along those lines, characters like Hawkman and Hawkgirl, Black Canary, Green Arrow, Zatanna,etc. would look more even, so to speak in the de-powered "Big 7" League.

[Sutekh]

Going along those lines, characters like Hawkman and Hawkgirl, Black Canary, Green Arrow, Zatanna,etc. would look more even, so to speak in the de-powered "Big 7" League.

A fun part of using the 'back half' of the Satellite-era League as a team, without 'the big seven' is that Firestorm, Red Tornado and Zatanna would be the heavy hitters / powerhouses of the team, with Elongated Man, the Hawks, Atom, Green Arrow and Black Canary as the rest of the team.

[Ascended]

Going along those lines, characters like Hawkman and Hawkgirl, Black Canary, Green Arrow, Zatanna,etc. would look more even, so to speak in the de-powered "Big 7" League.

If it's only the Big 7 getting de-powered then they're gonna be out-gunned by a whole lot of people. Zee, Shazam, Captain Atom, Mera, Firestorm, Fate...lotta heroes just as powerful (or more) than the Big 7, they're just not as popular. Are we de-powering the legacies too, because if not then those guys are all gonna outclass their mentors as well.

It'd be kind of fun to see the League put in the mid-tier for a while, but I still think it'd be more interesting as an entire setting.

[Brian Adkins]

A fun part of using the 'back half' of the Satellite-era League as a team, without 'the big seven' is that Firestorm, Red Tornado and Zatanna would be the heavy hitters / powerhouses of the team, with Elongated Man, the Hawks, Atom, Green Arrow and Black Canary as the rest of the team.

Elongated Man and Red Tornado? Really? lol I don't know about that. The Atom could be considering his microscopic abilities.

[Brian Adkins]

If it's only the Big 7 getting de-powered then they're gonna be out-gunned by a whole lot of people. Zee, Shazam, Captain Atom, Mera, Firestorm, Fate...lotta heroes just as powerful (or more) than the Big 7, they're just not as popular. Are we de-powering the legacies too, because if not then those guys are all gonna outclass their mentors as well.

It'd be kind of fun to see the League put in the mid-tier for a while, but I still think it'd be more interesting as an entire setting.

Guess I wouldn't include them? lol I dunno. Hadn't really thought about it that far I guess. All in fun, you know?
In that vein, how would you de-power Shazam?
Zatanna for all her magic is just human. She could easily be shot,stabbed,poisoned,etc. We've seen her cut her throat slit a number of times.
Firsestorm is a tough one. When he's combined. Obviously,you'd have to find out his 2 identities and deal with them while their human.

Okay, those are just examples and I don't want to start doing the whole ,how would a villain take them out sort of stuff, so I'm gonna stop.

[Brian Adkins]

Personally, I think it'd be fun to just get rid of Billy Batson and have Wonder Woman permanently possess the powers of Shazam and absorb that mythology into her own, since they're not so incongruous. Then she'd definitely be the most powerful.

Then you're going the wrong direction. lol Looking to de-power the characters not overly inflate them.

[Ascended]

In that vein, how would you de-power Shazam?

Well if we're just pulling Clark and the others back to Golden Age-ish levels, I'd just do the same for Billy. Reduce his physical limits, get rid of the lightning manipulation and spell work he's been capable of in more modern times so he's just a flying brick again, and call it a day.

Shazam doesn't need extra weaknesses, I don't think, since the rules of magic are flexible enough to make challenges easy to come by anyway. If another weakness is absolutely required, we could go back to the days when he had to split his power among himself and the other Champions. I always liked that wrinkle, made for a fun complication, but maybe that's too much on top of the de-powering?

I'd leave Billy with his ability to fly, unlike Clark who I'd take back to "leap tall buildings" territory. It'd help differentiate them. Clark would keep some super senses, Billy would keep flight.

[Jim Kelly]

Characters like Elongated Man, Red Tornado and the Atom should be much more powerful than they're usually shown to be--but because they aren't top tier characters, they have to hide their lamps under bushels.

Ralph should be nearly immortal and invulnerable to almost anything. Reddy is a wind elemental. Ray can utilize sub-atomic physics.

Conversely, top tier heroes like Superman, Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel have built-in features that writers could always use to limit them, when the story calls for it. Clark's biology can always leave him depleted of energy--and his moral nature checks his powers. Diana and Billy both depend on the good offices of gods and heroes--and if they are at odds with those mythic beings, they just won't get all the powers they want.

[Brian Adkins]

Well if we're just pulling Clark and the others back to Golden Age-ish levels, I'd just do the same for Billy. Reduce his physical limits, get rid of the lightning manipulation and spell work he's been capable of in more modern times so he's just a flying brick again, and call it a day.

Shazam doesn't need extra weaknesses, I don't think, since the rules of magic are flexible enough to make challenges easy to come by anyway. If another weakness is absolutely required, we could go back to the days when he had to split his power among himself and the other Champions. I always liked that wrinkle, made for a fun complication, but maybe that's too much on top of the de-powering?

I'd leave Billy with his ability to fly, unlike Clark who I'd take back to "leap tall buildings" territory. It'd help differentiate them. Clark would keep some super senses, Billy would keep flight.

When did he do spells? I don't recall that right off. Splitting the powers sounds fine except that it means you bring in even more characters with the same abilities.

[Brian Adkins]

Characters like Elongated Man, Red Tornado and the Atom should be much more powerful than they're usually shown to be--but because they aren't top tier characters, they have to hide their lamps under bushels.

Ralph should be nearly immortal and invulnerable to almost anything. Reddy is a wind elemental. Ray can utilize sub-atomic physics.

Conversely, top tier heroes like Superman, Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel have built-in features that writers could always use to limit them, when the story calls for it. Clark's biology can always leave him depleted of energy--and his moral nature checks his powers. Diana and Billy both depend on the good offices of gods and heroes--and if they are at odds with those mythic beings, they just won't get all the powers they want.

Well,I guess if Plastic Man can be reassembled after being at the bottom of an ocean for thousands of years in shambles, why not Ralph? lol
Red Tornado has been busted apart so often its become something of an ongoing joke.

The new Shazam! movie I think is going to look into them "sharing their powers." Should be fun!

[Ascended]

When did he do spells? I don't recall that right off. Splitting the powers sounds fine except that it means you bring in even more characters with the same abilities.

I don't think there's been a lot of "wave your hands around, say silly words, spell!" stuff, but more like using the "power of Zeus" to do things like, I dunno, understand languages or teleport to the Rock of Eternity or whatever.

Given the way people reacted to it on the old DC boards, I think the first time something like that happened was Morrison's JLA where Billy uses a lightning punch to knock out Superman? Then it slowly expanded, and I guess maybe it was Johns' New52 stuff where Billy's powers became a bit more overtly magic-y, with tricks and abilities lightning shouldn't have, whether it's magic or not. I guess? But I am far from an expert on Shazam so I could very well wrong about all that.

[Pete26]

The first part of the story begins in DETECTIVE COMICS 393 (November 1969) and continues into BATMAN 217 and then DETECTIVE COMICS 394--all written by Frank Robbins. Denny O'Neil begins as a Batman writer in the next issue, DETECTIVE COMICS 395--with Neal Adams and Dick Giordano art.

Events unfold from there, through all issues of BATMAN and DETECTIVE COMICS through 1970, 1971, 1972--including the introduction of Talia and her father Ra's al Ghul, head of the League of Assassins.

Neal Adams is my favourite Batman artist.