Dick Grayson vs the Enforcers

[Alan2099]

Dick, without any equipment, vs Montana, Ox, and Fancy Dan.

[Shellhead]

Since PIS would disqualify every occasion when the Enforcers actually hit Spider-man, they are practically featless. (Well, except that time when Ox was hitting Daredevil instead of Spider-man). That reduces the Enforcers to a mook with a lasso, a weak version of Blockbuster, and a snappy dresser with a black belt. If they could ambush Dick and use effective teamwork, they could give him some trouble, but they have a track record of lousy teamwork that shouldn't be ignored.

[Jcogginsa]

Is there any reason why the Enforcers Spider-Man fighting feats shouldn't be counted?

None of Daredevil's actual powers include enhanced speed, but the board accepts that he's a bullet timer without issue

[Sharpandpointies]

Is there any reason why the Enforcers Spider-Man fighting feats shouldn't be counted?

None of Daredevil's actual powers include enhanced speed, but the board accepts that he's a bullet timer without issue

PIS with regards to speed is a thing.

The Enforcers don't have actual serious speedfeats beyond 'hits Spider-man', which...everyone and their uncle has done at different times. Hitting someone with enhanced speed happens a LOT in comics. Unless there is a serious reason to believe it's a valid feat, it's usually chalked up to PIS.

Kraven is a guy whose big speedfeats are, absolutely, 'manages to fight against Spider-man'. Kraven is also a guy who does this all the time, a guy who is explicitly amped up to superhuman levels by special magical jungle potions, and has a couple of other speedfeats to his name that sort of back this up.

The Enforcers are a bunch of skilled but otherwise standard humans, the Ox potentially being the potential outlier here by having some kind of enhanced strength. But none of them are noted as being superhuman with regards to speed. It's not part of their presentation at all. They don't have other speedfeats in the bullet-time range or whathaveyou to back up 'hits a bullet-timer with combat precog who isn’t really showcasing their speed'.

Daredevil, on the other hand, learns magical ninja martial arts from a group of people who do explicitly superhuman things with those magical ninja martial arts. Matt, himself, does stuff like swat bullets out of the air based on this. Constantly. That's a valid speedfeat beyond 'manages to hit Spider-man, which could be the usual PIS'. He has the presentation for it, he has the feats for it, he does the bullet-swatting stuff the time, in fact, as well as some absolutely ridiculous and clear bullet-timing dodges. Good enough for me.

Tl;dr: we don't scale here, barring 'no other things to work with'; we prefer feats. And we tend to put speed under a microscope because it is so often misused/ignored/subject to PIS in comics. The Enforcers don't have the feats beyond the usual 'manages to hit something that, without those feats or proper presentation, they have no business hitting.'

[Jcogginsa]

It seems a bit unfair to decide the the vast majority of these characters feats don't count because they don't have much beyond scaling.

[Wildling]

It seems a bit unfair to decide the the vast majority of these characters feats don't count because they don't have much beyond scaling.

Might be much more of an issue for western comic book characters which can a have a thousand cooks to write single characters, and a thousand different reasons why someone can impress others in a fight, in a thousand different areas.

[Nik Hasta]

Is there any reason why the Enforcers Spider-Man fighting feats shouldn't be counted?

None of Daredevil's actual powers include enhanced speed, but the board accepts that he's a bullet timer without issue

Daredevil has actual bullet time feats is why.

If the Enforcers have feats of concretely dodging or parrying bullets, feel free to post them and I'm sure people will revise their opinions.

[Sharpandpointies]

It seems a bit unfair to decide the the vast majority of these characters feats don't count because they don't have much beyond scaling.

Unfair to whom? The characters? The writers? The fans? Furthermore, they do have something beyond scaling, and that's presentation.

Rumbles has pretty specific rules about using feats, and how said feats are to be judged. Yes, this does impact some characters harder than others, but given the inconsistency of fictional characters (especially in comics), that's going to be the case for any set of rules. Scaling is only used when we have nothing else (if at all), and even then it does need to be judged against presentation, just like feats do. So there's the fairness.

I mean, feats come under the same scrutiny. If a feat doesn't match up well with the character's presentation, it gets called into question. One might otherwise equally argue that it's unfair to Spider-man because he doesn't get his beatdown of Firelord as a valid expression of his ability.

Presentation is important. The Cat has almost zero feats, his one big appearance being against Shang Chi. But at least in that appearance, Shang goes on and on about how the Cat is at least his equal, possibly his better, and it's pretty clear from the presentation that the Cat is SUPPOSED to be on that level. So one can say 'Assuming we take that as valid, then the Cat should be capable of XYZ'. It's not perfect, but it's all we have on the Cat, and he does have that presentation.

Looking at it the other way, with regards to Spider-man, we have the Lizard. Connors doesn't actually have a whack of explicit speedfeats (maybe this has changed recently, but a while back this was true). However his big thing is that he's stronger, maybe faster, tougher than Spider-man, to the point where he pushes Peter to the wall when they fight. Peter goes on and on in some of their fights about how he's barely managing, the Lizard is just really fast, thank you Spider-sense, etc. The presentation is pretty clear - the Lizard is a superhuman being who is noted over and over again as being Really Really Fast™. So people CAN come on here and put forward the argument that 'hey, we have the Lizard - a superhuman being - explicitly pressuring Spider-man pretty heavily in the speed department, that's significant, no?'

Speaking of Classic Fisk, there's another example in the opposite direction. Classic Fisk has hit Spider-man. He has, in fact, hit Spider-man a lot (sometimes requiring writing where his spider-sense is ignored). The board, however, does not say that Fisk is a high-end bullet-timer because of that. We say 'that's PIS because Fisk has nothing else to demonstrate that kind of speed, his presentation doesn't back it up, and comics are kind of crap for that kind of thing - speedy people not actually using their speed - happening anyway.'

The Enforcers, however...their entire schtick is that they're normal people with skillz. And those skills aren't even on the level of the skilled street levelers like Daredevil, Elektra, and other such people. They haven't been trained by any luminaries, mystic ninja groups, or Captain America, they don't know fictional martial arts that are touted as being amazing or 'every martial art on the planet and then some', etc. They are a bunch of normal people with such skills as 'highly trained with lasso and expert marksman', 'expert at Judo and Karate', and 'Is kinda like Classic Kingpin in that he is beyond human in strength, but not as much, and that's all'. Nothing in there, nothing at all, suggests they should be capable of hitting a high-end bullet-timer who has combat precog to boot, especially when that high-end bullet-timer with combat precog isn't shown as using their speed.

On Rumbles, presentation is very important, whether we're talking about feats or - very rarely, when we have nothing else - scaling.

Now, there are other boards on the net that are perfectly happy basing their comparisons completely off scaling, with no regards to presentation (ie, Captain America has hurt Thanos with a shield toss, ergo Captain America is a guy who hits that hard with his shield <-- I'm using this not to make other people look silly, but because it's about the biggest difference from how Rumbles would look at something that I can consider). They likely get completely different results than we do with fights and comparisons because of this. And they're happy that way, so good on them. Their rules are no less valid, their results are no less valid, because this stuff is all fictional and inconsistent, and any attempt to slap rules onto it is 100% going to result in weirdness one way or the other. *points at link in signature*

And if people want to do scaling like that, without consideration of presentation, there are those other boards to consider. ^_^ But scaling will never be a priority on Rumbles, not as long as we keep to the rules we have here, and even the rare occasions that it is used it will still need to pass the presentation test.

[Jcogginsa]

Unfair to whom? The characters? The writers? The fans? Furthermore, they do have something beyond scaling, and that's presentation.

The characters.

"These characters spend the vast majroity of their screentime fighting Spider-Man. Because of board rules, their feats from fighting spider-Man are not applicable"

The vast majority of the character's feats are discarded because of the feeling's of the debators rather than the facts of the situation.

Like, you could easily say "The enforcers have few explicit bullet timing feats, however they are consistently portrayed as people whose skill allows them to put up a challenge against Spider-Man." It would be just as consistent with the facts as the opposing argument, and which one gets believed would be entirely down to feelings.

The whole presentation rule in general is also just arbitrarily enforced depending on the characters/franchise involved in the rumble. For example over in DBZ rumbles, Scaling is consistently prioritized over Presentation when it comes to the power of the ki blasts.

[Nik Hasta]

The characters.

"These characters spend the vast majroity of their screentime fighting Spider-Man. Because of board rules, their feats from fighting spider-Man are not applicable"

The vast majority of the character's feats are discarded because of the feeling's of the debators rather than the facts of the situation.

Like, you could easily say "The enforcers have few explicit bullet timing feats, however they are consistently portrayed as people whose skill allows them to put up a challenge against Spider-Man." It would be just as consistent with the facts as the opposing argument, and which one gets believed would be entirely down to feelings.

The whole presentation rule in general is also just arbitrarily enforced depending on the characters/franchise involved in the rumble. For example over in DBZ rumbles, Scaling is consistently prioritized over Presentation when it comes to the power of the ki blasts.

Alright then, please post a feat of any of the Enforcers bullet timing. Literally even one would massively help your apparent position.

This is a pretty weak argument if you follow the logic of this statement through.

"The enforcers have few explicit bullet timing feats, however they are consistently portrayed as people whose skill allows them to put up a challenge against Spider-Man."

Okay, damn near every Flash Rogue is now massively faster than light by proxy because "portrayed as being a challenge," is apparently the same actual concrete feats.

EDIT:

Actually this:

The whole presentation rule in general is also just arbitrarily enforced depending on the characters/franchise involved in the rumble. For example over in DBZ rumbles, Scaling is consistently prioritized over Presentation when it comes to the power of the ki blasts.

No, it's not arbitrary. It's on a character by character basis and a franchise by franchise basis.

Presentation is a factor but it's also doesn't matter as much as feats do. In instances where we have few or minimal feats but a fair amount of presentation, we work with what we have. In instances like the Enforcers, we have a presentation of them being "C Tier named guys who Spider-Man can beat up," and feats of them being barely in the region of peak human.

Like, saying "Well they are challenge for Spider-Man," is both a misrepresentation of the Enforcers' entire career and their amount of unimpressive feats.

You really have been here long enough to know that this is a poor argument.

[Jcogginsa]

EDIT: Nevermind

I can feel myself regretting these posts already, so I'm just gonna bow out of the thread and cool my head down

[Sharpandpointies]

The characters.

Setting aside the idea of being unfair to a fictional character, it's perfectly fair. It means we're applying the rules to them as we apply them to other characters. Hitting a superfast character when one doesn't have examples of superspeed feats oneself, or any kind of presentation to suggest that level of superspeed, is discarded as PIS pretty much across the board.

"These characters spend the vast majroity of their screentime fighting Spider-Man. Because of board rules, their feats from fighting spider-Man are not applicable"

What feats? 'Hitting Spider-man'? You've just argued that characters managing to hit a character with superspeed counts toward a legit speedfeat, even when the characters have basically nothing to show that they should be able to hit said superspeed character, and their presentation as perfectly normal humans indicates otherwise.

This is pretty much textbook PIS, and as noted is tossed out around here.

The vast majority of the character's feats are discarded because of the feeling's of the debators rather than the facts of the situation.

Like, you could easily say "The enforcers have few explicit bullet timing feats, however they are consistently portrayed as people whose skill allows them to put up a challenge against Spider-Man." It would be just as consistent with the facts as the opposing argument, and which one gets believed would be entirely down to feelings.

Where are their few explicit bullet-timing feats? You say they have them, even if they are 'few'. So as Nik notes, if that is consistent with the facts, pony up the feats. Heck, if they have those feats then sure, things change.

We concern ourselves with PIS, here. You might say this is all feelings and nothing more, but the presentation is pretty clear for the Enforcers. They're otherwise normal humans who have some decent level of skill.

The whole presentation rule in general is also just arbitrarily enforced depending on the characters/franchise involved in the rumble. For example over in DBZ rumbles, Scaling is consistently prioritized over Presentation when it comes to the power of the ki blasts.

Nik covers this well enough, so nothing more to say here.