You wouldn't get away with that nowadays!

[Ultimate Captain America]

Once again, white people are the highest ethnicity in the US, and straights are the highest sexual orientation. Aiming comics toward white straight people is the simplest way to aim at the highest portion of the market. Men and women have even numbers in the population in general, but comic books are consumed mostly by men. So, straight white men are the default market comics aim at. Not for racism, not for any conspiracy theory, but just for simple and mere marketing.

[davetvs]

Why do you keep trying to broaden the demographic? We are not talking about straight white people, as has already been said...we are talking about straight white men, the demographic the comics industry has historically pandered to. We all know the comics industry does not and has not ever equally included women, white or otherwise. Why is that?

[bat22]

Once again, white people are the highest ethnicity in the US, and straights are the highest sexual orientation. Aiming comics toward white straight people is the simplest way to aim at the highest portion of the market. Men and women have even numbers in the population in general, but comic books are consumed mostly by men. So, straight white men are the default market comics aim at. Not for racism, not for any conspiracy theory, but just for simple and mere marketing.

And how utterly bigoted is identity politicking to deem that non-white, non-straight people are incapable of appreciating the works put out by straight white men featuring straight white men? None of my fellow non-whites have any love for diversity derivatives like Miles Morales, nor "promotions" like Captain Falcon (as opposed to unashamedly Falcon).

[postfutureshock]

And how utterly bigoted is identity politicking to deem that non-white, non-straight people are incapable of appreciating the works put out by straight white men featuring straight white men? None of my fellow non-whites have any love for diversity derivatives like Miles Morales, nor "promotions" like Captain Falcon (as opposed to unashamedly Falcon).

But the reverse of the bolded part seems to always be called into question. Why can't white straight men read about minority characters without complaint?

[bat22]

But the reverse of the bolded part seems to always be called into question. Why can't white straight men read about minority characters without compliant?

If you're talking about the likes of flamin' gay Iceman, "bisexual" Tim Drake, The Unimaginative Ironheart, et cetera, then you are going to be met with complaints (and not all coming from white straight men). Which has less to do with the characters' optics than the characters themselves or how they came about. There's always been a seat at the table for gay or minority characters / readers in Marvel going back decades despite the modern "stunning and brave" BS.

[marhawkman]

But the reverse of the bolded part seems to always be called into question. Why can't white straight men read about minority characters without compliant?

"Compliant"? Interesting choice of words. The only way that word makes sense is if you mean that you're expecting the readers to not comply with the story as written?

I mean, there's the possibility you meant to use "complaint". but that doesn't make sense given just how many "minority" characters there have been over the years that the majority actually liked. I mean, it's true of MOST minority characters.

[postfutureshock]

What are these photos supposed to show? Only one of the pictured characters is gay?

And plenty of queer people love the characters you insist don't have an audience.

If these characters were so unsuccessful, what is your explanation for their inclusion in multiple books and mediums? Because I promise if they weren't legitimately and commercially viable, they would not be getting showcased at all. The conservative conspiracy theory that billion dollar corporations (often run by conservatives mind you) want to run their companies into the ground in the name of equality and inclusion is exactly that...a conspiracy theory.

For what it's worth, Iceman and Tim Drake were long embraced by the gay community before they ever came out in the books. Gay audiences identified with their story and some of the coded narratives around their characters. It was not a shock to us when their sexualities were made official.

"Compliant"? Interesting choice of words. The only way that word makes sense is if you mean that you're expecting the readers to not comply with the story as written?

I mean, there's the possibility you meant to use "complaint". but that doesn't make sense given just how many "minority" characters there have been over the years that the majority actually liked. I mean, it's true of MOST minority characters.

Fixed the typo. Thanks! You can read the above for the response to your second statement.

[Ultimate Captain America]

Why do you keep trying to broaden the demographic? We are not talking about straight white people, as has already been said...we are talking about straight white men, the demographic the comics industry has historically pandered to. We all know the comics industry does not and has not ever equally included women, white or otherwise. Why is that?

In broad strokes (there can always be exceptions), women do not like violence, that's too manly. Most women prefer works of fiction that are about love, feelings, social relations, and all that. And violence is intrinsic to the superhero genre: it can be soft or hard, it can go alongside love and feelings or just be gratuitous violence, it can be humorous or it can be grim, but you can't be without it. At some point, inevitably, things will end up in someone kickin' someone else's parts.

And how utterly bigoted is identity politicking to deem that non-white, non-straight people are incapable of appreciating the works put out by straight white men featuring straight white men? None of my fellow non-whites have any love for diversity derivatives like Miles Morales, nor "promotions" like Captain Falcon (as opposed to unashamedly Falcon).

As I said, it's not because of politics, it's because of marketing. The industry usually aims for the biggest demographics because they want to sell, and assume that a white straight reader (statistically the majority) will want to read about a hero who is white and straight like himself. Miles and Sam are not exceptions to the rule: if the marketing guys identify that there is a sizeable potential market that is not fully content with the available products and that they would enjoy better a new product aimed at them, then making such a new product would generate even more money. In other words, it's still marketing.

[postfutureshock]

In broad strokes (there can always be exceptions), women do not like violence, that's too manly. Most women prefer works of fiction that are about love, feelings, social relations, and all that. And violence is intrinsic to the superhero genre: it can be soft or hard, it can go alongside love and feelings or just be gratuitous violence, it can be humorous or it can be grim, but you can't be without it. At some point, inevitably, things will end up in someone kickin' someone else's parts.

Next time, please lead with this. That we know not to engage as it would be a waste of time and intellect. Dear god...

[davetvs]

Right. I guess we're just pretending Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Hunger Games, Mulan, Twilight, Xena: Warrior Princess, Charmed, etc. were all violence free.

[marhawkman]

Fixed the typo. Thanks! You can read the above for the response to your second statement.

Response? Nothing you said was a response, most of it isn't even worth quoting.

For what it's worth, Iceman and Tim Drake were long embraced by the gay community before they ever came out in the books.

Um yeah, fandoms regularly ruin characters by making them into things they're not. This is inevitable, but isn't a good thing.

As I said, it's not because of politics, it's because of marketing. The industry usually aims for the biggest demographics because they want to sell, and assume that a white straight reader (statistically the majority) will want to read about a hero who is white and straight like himself. Miles and Sam are not exceptions to the rule: if the marketing guys identify that there is a sizeable potential market that is not fully content with the available products and that they would enjoy better a new product aimed at them, then making such a new product would generate even more money. In other words, it's still marketing.

I have to question the idea that anyone sane would intentionally target a book to a specific ethnic group. why? well, the old Greek theatre troupes from over 2000 years ago had a saying about how you shouldn't make a show just comedy, or just drama. Why? it's about sales volume. The reality is that you're NOT actually choosing between customers who EXCLUSIVELY like X or like Y. It's far more likely to have customers who will watch anything that includes comedy than to have customers who hate comedy so much they'll refuse to watch anything including it. This is why most action movies have humor in them. It makes the movie less depressing and people are more likely to enjoy the movie on an emotional level.

By the same logic, trying to target a book at a small subset of the population is a terrible idea in general, since it doesn't matter which subset you target, you're excluding someone. Now this is not the same as genres of writing, since, while mixing action and comedy does in fact work well, and is actualyl regularly done, stuff like Green Lantern, just... doesn't work the same as a Batman book.

[phonogram12]

The use of the "N" word in a few X-Men and FF comics I remember reading back in the day. I mean, I see that they were going with the fact that it's an absolutely deplorable word, but still.

[postfutureshock]

ANYWAY.

I'm re-reading PunisherMAX and I don't think a lot of the language would be used today. Lots of gay slurs.

[shooshoomanjoe]

Once again, white people are the highest ethnicity in the US, and straights are the highest sexual orientation. Aiming comics toward white straight people is the simplest way to aim at the highest portion of the market. Men and women have even numbers in the population in general, but comic books are consumed mostly by men. So, straight white men are the default market comics aim at. Not for racism, not for any conspiracy theory, but just for simple and mere marketing.

This is a pointless complain since most of the titles and characters are white straight males. I don't get why some folks get triggered because minorites are being represented somewhat.

[shooshoomanjoe]

For what it's worth, Iceman and Tim Drake were long embraced by the gay community before they ever came out in the books. Gay audiences identified with their story and some of the coded narratives around their characters. It was not a shock to us when their sexualities were made official.

That explains why Family Guy outed Iceman long before Jean outed him in the comics.