Tim Drake: Robin #6 Preview

[witchboy]

I have read that Bernard was a popular character to pair with Tim in fan fics back in the day, and I believe Fitzmartin was writing Tim/Bernard fan fics.
It does seem really random to have Bernard as Tim's love interest, but here we are.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

I have read that Bernard was a popular character to pair with Tim in fan fics back in the day, and I believe Fitzmartin was writing Tim/Bernard fan fics.
It does seem really random to have Bernard as Tim's love interest, but here we are.

Not really? He was only known in VERY obscure fanfic circles which Fitzmartin was part of I guess.

[Mantis-Ray]

The thing is with Bernard you can't even say there was a spark on Tim's end as Tim didn't even like him that much. Like the last time he mentioned him he considered him an idiot:

Attachment 129813

Sure there are moments where they are friendly but these are some of their last interactions

Attachment 129814

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Amusingly if Bernard still acted like this he would probably be a better character.

At least he has a character here and him being an arrogant douchebag creates an opportunity to mine some kind of dynamic from.

[witchboy]

Not really? He was only known in VERY obscure fanfic circles which Fitzmartin was part of I guess.

I have no idea how true it is or not, that's just what I read. Tim Drake slash fan fic circles in general would already be a pretty specialized circle. I'm sure Tim/Kon was far far more popular than Tim and Bernard.
Tim being bi is great, but I would never have picked Bernard as his love interest. And modern Bernard isn't really recognizable as the same character from his original appearances anyways.

[Aahz]

Basically, if it was DC’s idea, Bernard is just the best of a very limited number of options. If it was Meghan Fitzmartin’s idea, maybe she just read the run with Bernard in it at a formative age and saw something in him that almost nobody else did. Who knows?

I mean the would have also been Cullen Row as an more recent option, or several characters from Tim's time in Brentwood.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

I have no idea how true it is or not, that's just what I read. Tim Drake slash fan fic circles in general would already be a pretty specialized circle. I'm sure Tim/Kon was far far more popular than Tim and Bernard.
Tim being bi is great, but I would never have picked Bernard as his love interest. And modern Bernard isn't really recognizable as the same character from his original appearances anyways.

I agree. Bernard is the LAST person who makes sense as a love interest and right now he's basically a new character. People who say he represents the "normalcy" of Tim's life prior to War Games are REALLY stretching..................

[AnakinFlair]

It would help to know which came first: the decision to make Tim bisexual, or the decision to put him in a relationship with Bernard (which, obviously, necessitates him becoming bisexual).

If it’s the latter, that’s more likely to be author-driven… maybe Meghan Fitzmartin liked Bernard for whatever reason back in the day, head-shipped them as a couple, and now as a writer is able to make that canon. (To be clear, that’s not suggesting DC opposed it, just that it would be originally stemming from the writer, and thus more likely to be specific to Bernard himself, obscure though he undoubtedly is.)

Whereas if it’s the former — DC wanted to make a high-profile character LGBTQ and decided Tim fit the bill — then they were always going to be a bit limited in terms of relationship options. They probably either couldn’t or didn’t want to use Kon, both because there’s already a bi Superboy and because he just doesn’t have any real implications of leaning that way. Tim’s supporting cast is pretty limited… Steph is by far the most prominent, but obviously she doesn’t work for this. Ditto Tam Fox. Chuck Dixon gave Tim some school friends (Ives, Callie), but no one’s really used them since Dixon last wrote Robin. (Plus Callie’s a girl.) Who is there to use if you want Tim dating a male civilian (so no Impulse, etc.) and not an adult with weird power dynamics (Azrael, etc)? Either you create a new character (which they could’ve done) or reintroduce a supporting character so obscure that they’re effectively a new character, but at least you can throw a minor nod to the idea that there was always a spark back in the old days, Tim just didn’t realize it was romantic till years later.

Basically, if it was DC’s idea, Bernard is just the best of a very limited number of options. If it was Meghan Fitzmartin’s idea, maybe she just read the run with Bernard in it at a formative age and saw something in him that almost nobody else did. Who knows?

Can Tim even be considered a high-profile character anymore? It feels like he's been given the shaft ever since the New 52 started- first by completely assassinating his character by changing his origin, then by marginalizing and sidelining him for Damian. For the past few years, as a casual reader, it's felt like every few months DC remembers he exists and puts him in something.

Honestly, if they wanted to make a Bat character Bisexual or Gay, I would have thought they would have chosen Cassandra. I thought they may be going in that direction a few years ago with the way she interacted with Harper Row.

[dietrich]

Can Tim even be considered a high-profile character anymore? It feels like he's been given the shaft ever since the New 52 started- first by completely assassinating his character by changing his origin, then by marginalizing and sidelining him for Damian. For the past few years, as a casual reader, it's felt like every few months DC remembers he exists and puts him in something.

Honestly, if they wanted to make a Bat character Bisexual or Gay, I would have thought they would have chosen Cassandra. I thought they may be going in that direction a few years ago with the way she interacted with Harper Row.

Tim wasn't marginalised he was had a lot of his history retconed same as every other established DC character not called batman and GL and he had one bad run [TT]. That's it.
It's not the same as being marginalised.
Tim was one of a minority of characters lucky enough to have two ongoing titles where they were a lead or one of the leads.

Tim has always had a home in a series barring the short period between YJ ended till his new Robin series. so he has always been in print and currently has a solo.

Before he came out the titles and team books he ended up were always well known titles that were likely to get eyes on them.

So Tim is a highly visible, continuously in use and well known character. Regardless of whether or not Tim himself is high profile the significant detail is that Tim is a Robin and Robin is a high profile mantle.
Tim is also male.

DC wanted to make a male Bat character LGBTQ+. The batfam already a few well known female LGBTQ+ characters.

[Aahz]

Btw. first it looked like Tim was trying to drown Moriaty not sure why wasn't pulled imto the water by the anchor, and than his brilliant plan to take him down is to light him on fire?

That seems more like stuff Jason or Damian would do, but for Tim that seems uncharacteristically brutal.

[Aahz]

Tim wasn't marginalised he was had a lot of his history retconed same as every other established DC character not called batman and GL and he had one bad run [TT]. That's it.
It's not the same as being marginalised.

Not sure if you can call that marginalised but at least during the new 52 there seemed often to be a tendency to keep him on the fringes of the Batfamily and of the Batfamily events.

Had iirc noticeable less interaction with Bruce than the others (iirc they had next to no real personal interaction until Rebirth), spend iirc the least time in Gotham and was in the events usually pushed of into pointless side plots. I mean he was even barely in the "Batman and Red Robin" issue they did after Damian's death.

The other had iirc all at least one or two issues that was mostly about their relation with Bruce.

And I think the only other Batfamily member he had some interaction with during that time was Jason.

[dietrich]

Not sure if you can call that marginalised but at least during the new 52 there seemed often to be a tendency to keep him on the fringes of the Batfamily and of the Batfamily events.

Had iirc noticeable less interaction with Bruce than the others (iirc they had next to no real personal interaction until Rebirth), spend iirc the least time in Gotham and was in the events usually pushed of into pointless side plots. I mean he was even barely in the "Batman and Red Robin" issue they did after Damian's death.

The other had iirc all at least one or two issues that was mostly about their relation with Bruce.

And I think the only other Batfamily member he had some interaction with during that time was Jason.

Nope, you can not call that marginalized. Batman had a new sidekick. Duke or Harper during the new 52. He isn't required nor was he mandated to appear in Batman's book. It's not like every other bat characters was showing up regularly.

Tim had 2 titles he was showing up regularly in. The only Robin who had 2 titles going on at the same time. Some bats had none. he was very very far from marginalized.

That's like saying that Tim was marginalised during the 90's because he wasn't showing up regularly in the Batman title or because he wasn't in the Batman title as often as Jason did when he was Robin.

[Aahz]

Nope, you can not call that marginalized. Batman had a new sidekick. Duke or Harper during the new 52. He isn't required nor was he mandated to appear in Batman's book. It's not like every other bat characters was showing up regularly.

But they had at least occasionally team ups with him or with other Batfamily members or plots in the events, on the other hand Tim felt pretty isolated and out of focus in comparison.

[witchboy]

Can Tim even be considered a high-profile character anymore? It feels like he's been given the shaft ever since the New 52 started- first by completely assassinating his character by changing his origin, then by marginalizing and sidelining him for Damian. For the past few years, as a casual reader, it's felt like every few months DC remembers he exists and puts him in something.

Honestly, if they wanted to make a Bat character Bisexual or Gay, I would have thought they would have chosen Cassandra. I thought they may be going in that direction a few years ago with the way she interacted with Harper Row.

Well, the Bat books already had many many gay or bi women - Selina, Ivy, Harley, Renee, Batwoman, Maggie, Talia, Alysia. And Future State did imply a relationship between Steph and Cassandra which suggests that they are bi in the main universe as well, so at this point nearly all the women in the Bat books are gay or bi.
Until a couple of years ago the only noteworthy gay or bi male character was Cullen, a very minor supporting character. Which created a weird situation where most of the women in the Bat books were gay or bi while all the men were straight.
So it really made sense that there would be a gay or bi male character introduced.

[Frontier]

Tim wasn't marginalised he was had a lot of his history retconed same as every other established DC character not called batman and GL and he had one bad run [TT]. That's it.
It's not the same as being marginalised.
Tim was one of a minority of characters lucky enough to have two ongoing titles where they were a lead or one of the leads.

Tim has always had a home in a series barring the short period between YJ ended till his new Robin series. so he has always been in print and currently has a solo.

Before he came out the titles and team books he ended up were always well known titles that were likely to get eyes on them.

So Tim is a highly visible, continuously in use and well known character. Regardless of whether or not Tim himself is high profile the significant detail is that Tim is a Robin and Robin is a high profile mantle.
Tim is also male.

DC wanted to make a male Bat character LGBTQ+. The batfam already a few well known female LGBTQ+ characters.

So it's basically a matter of the character not being used well.

[godisawesome]

Yeah, I'd say Tim wasn't marginalized in the New 52, so much as confusingly relegated to only being one of Lobdell's toys in the Young Justice line that DC crashed and burned partially because they wanted guys like Lobdell to run it because they were pliable yes-men to arbitrary whims and decrees.

I wouldn't have been shocked if other Bat-writers tended to shy away from him because they recognized that Lobdell was writing a "Tim Drake" they couldn't recognize, and that being in editorial's preferred type of book, they could end up drawing in editorial interference to preserve an IP editorial was reshaping more for their ideal of marketability. He was also at the time under either the Young Justice editorial board or (I believe, though I could definitely be wrong) the Superman board when the YJ group was folded away.

In a way, you could argue that Time Drake (the familiar, successful, fan-favorite character) was marginalized for "Tim Drake" (a loose collection of shallow marketing ideas and Scott Lobdell's apathy compared to Jason Todd, who likely enjoyed editorial not caring about him as much.)