Tim Drake: Robin #6 Preview

[Frontier]

Yes they could have had him team up occasionally up with Batman but they didn't and that's fine. Tim was busy elsewhere, Bruce lost his memories for some of the new52 and there were new characters that need to be introduced to the Batman readers so they took priority.

Tim had quite a few team ups with other Batfam. He took part in 3 or so bat events/cross overs. Again not every bat family character got that.

I don't understand how you can ever view Tim as marginalised during the new52. It smacks of entitlement or expecting preferential treatment.

He already had 2 ongoing titles even Dick Grayson the Batfamily member with the longest tenure. The 2nd most significant character in the Batman narrative [he was there from jump] didn't get 2 titles.

Dick was also pretty isolated from Gotham in the new 52 due to Grayson.
The series meant to celebrate his anniversary was repurposed to push another character.
Dick's history was also badly butchered by new52 retcons with the additional bonus of higher ups hacking off an important part of his lore and grafting it on to Tim.
lets not forget, DC tried to kill him off during the new 52 yet because Tim didn't have enough team ups with Batman and the batfam and that means Tim was marginalized.


Some characters only got brought back towards the end of the new 52, some were pretty much exlied from Gotham. Showing up even less than Tim in the main Batman title, used even less than Tim in events.

You need to consider how other Bat characters were used during the new 52 period.

Consider that writers have creative freedom. They come up with story ideas and the cast of characters.

Occasionally DC mandates that certain characters have to be included. At times some characters are off limits for various reasons eg. Damian despite being Robin during Snyder's batman run was off limits due to the writer having a 10 year old son so he didn't want to write a 10 year old in violent scenes [fyi this also isn't Damian being marginalised].

That still left him with large extended batfam, Gotham characters who are well known supporting characters in Batman stories and a number of original characters.

That a lot of characters so it's understand able that Tim didn't show much in that run. It's the same with other Batman and individual batfamily writers. If they didn't have a story idea that included Tim then they don't have a story with him
Honestly new 52 didn't give us a lot of Bat family interactions or team ups. BRE and Batman Eternal were bat events so we got interactions in those.
Robin war tie ins.
Death of the family and the tie in's
B&R gave us 3 arcs with Robins interacting
Batman Inc
Court of Owls
Batgirl I seem to recall some Dick/Babs [that might have been a phone conversation though]

I feel like I'm forgetting some others.

I think the issue is quantity over quality, especially compared to how the Batfamily acted in the 90's Batfamily events or even in the 2000's.

[dietrich]

Being in the same panel is not the same as interacting.
There is no focus on Tim relation with anyone appart from Jason (and maybe him and Damian hating each other).

Btw. BRE and Grayson are iirc DCYou and not New52.

So when you said he didn't have interactions with other members of the Batfam basically it's Dick and Bruce not the Scrubs.
He didn't have enough [because lets be clear he did have new52 interactions and worked as part of the team with the two] interactions with the two most popular characters in the Batfamily therefore he was marginalized.

That's Wild.

he didn't get focus on his relationships aside from Jason and maybe Damian. Remind me again the series that gave us the focus on Dick and Jason or Dick and Babs or the series that focused on Damian and Jason's relationship?

they don't exist because we didn't get a lot of the batfamily in the new 52. It was the same for all the Robins not just Tim dude.

I believe the reason behind you thinking that Tim was marginalized despite the fact that he was treated equally and in the case of ongoings titles better than the others is

your expectations for Tim going into new52 were based on a standard set back in the 90's when the batfam was smaller and Tim's status was different. He was Robin. The only sidekick and Nightwing only brother so he was in everything. He had to be because there weren't options.

The saying 'When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression' kept coming to mind as I read your replies and complaints.

He was isolated ie was away leading the TT
They didn't do enough to re-establish his relationships with important batfam members,
he didn't get enough focus in Gotham/Batman related books, events etc
didn't have a bigger role in events
didn't team up with Batman
wasn't in the Batman title enough
didn't get a story of him and batman or one with Nightwing [the 3 boys in the 90's batfam]

The problem you noted in nu52 Tim are valid. They are also present in all the rest of the bat family characters.

Your expectations for the character doesn't take into account/ignores the factors like

-Tim really has no reason to even be in a Batman book or that Batman has a partner

-Writers now more Bat characters to accommodate meaning panels time. no you want them to do an issue where batman teams up with Tim, you want panels that show him reconnecting with Dick Grayson in a Batman title?!

-The new 52's drastic retcons such as Tim was never Robin wasn't malicious or a personal attack. Other characters were also victims of drastic retcons.

-The treatment of other bat characters. limited interactions and broken relationships

You can't do a fair and honest evaluation of how Tim was treated in the new 52 without taking into account the state of the batman world, the other characters, they treatment they got, the status quo of the characters at the time and the changes brought on by the reboot.

[dietrich]

I think the issue is quantity over quality, especially compared to how the Batfamily acted in the 90's Batfamily events or even in the 2000's.

Agree that the new 52 handled the family badly compounded with the fact that new 52 retcons wiped away/altered relationship dynamics and past interactions leaving fans unclear on their current status quo. Who's close and what past stories are still canon.

However the quality was an issue for all the bat characters yet Tim is the only that's singled out as treated badly to the extent that we are currently having a discussion about Tim been marginalised.

I think some fans have very high expectations. They expect Tim to get as much use, focus and function as he did back when he was the main Robin, YJ was active and the family was just a few characters. That's why they keep complaining about DC treating him poorly or Ignoring him when that's blatantly not true.

[WebLurker]

Oh, I know! Drake!
Not the dragon kind, but the duck. Duck Boy. Darkwing Duck.

The superior Drake, to be sure.

You can't do a fair and honest evaluation of how Tim was treated in the new 52 without taking into account the state of the batman world, the other characters, they treatment they got, the status quo of the characters at the time and the changes brought on by the reboot.

Some characters were outright erased (apparently due to a personal agenda from the editors); Tim at least still existed and was given something to do.

[Godlike13]

DC didn't intend to marginalize Tim. In fact they were attempting to do the opposite by expanding his worth and overall relevancy despite a timeline he no longer fit in. They made his team the centerpiece of an entire line, with him at the center of those teams, twice. This idea that they were marginalizing him by not having him next to Batman enough is not representative of what they were doing with Tim during the New 52. They were trying to make him even more important beyond just Batman by making him the face of their teen generation. Fan reception marginalize Tim, as they just couldn't get audiences to really care about anything they did with him. Tim is pushed and published far greater then his current reception and outside growth. The amount DC would have to invest to get Tim to were some fans think he should belong would bankrupt DC lol.

[Frontier]

Agree that the new 52 handled the family badly compounded with the fact that new 52 retcons wiped away/altered relationship dynamics and past interactions leaving fans unclear on their current status quo. Who's close and what past stories are still canon.

However the quality was an issue for all the bat characters yet Tim is the only that's singled out as treated badly to the extent that we are currently having a discussion about Tim been marginalised.

I think some fans have very high expectations. They expect Tim to get as much use, focus and function as he did back when he was the main Robin, YJ was active and the family was just a few characters. That's why they keep complaining about DC treating him poorly or Ignoring him when that's blatantly not true.

I guess just because he had so much instances of writers screwing with and messing him around. Dick and Babs came close but they had brighter spots intermittent.

It's a quality problem.

[agentofthebat]

I wish I was feeling this comic but I just cant yet.

[skyvolt2000]

Some characters were outright erased (apparently due to a personal agenda from the editors); Tim at least still existed and was given something to do.

And when it was pointed out how bad certain OTHERS were done (Hi Static, Firestorm, Jaime Reyes and others)-we saw fan attitudes of "who gives a bleep" or "who really really gives a bleep" or "nobody cared about them and they never should have existed in the first place" or "that character did NOTHING important".

Folks point out Tim, Conner, Bart, Wally, Kyle and others because once upon a time these folks were among your better sellers before the agendas and letting certain writers run unchecked.

1000+ solo books were among Tim, Bart, Conner, Kyle, Wally, Cassandra and Lobo. Yet certain folks at DC didn't feel like that was good enough.

It's not entitlement to want to see a decent book with your favorite character. Yet for some Tim fans are suppose to settle for whatever crumbs DC puts out.

You don't go bankrupt putting out ONE decent Tim Drake book. That is all folks are asking. Not him getting whored out like Batman.

You keep putting Tim in crappy books-you know what you get??? See T'Challa. Where you are getting a new run that might not make issue 6 because of alienating the very folks who would buy the book. That even trade and digital numbers won't help.

[Godlike13]

They gave fans what they said they wanted. They brought back the traditional the YJ team and put on them a couple of their highest paid creators, and no one showed up. Tim fans don't want a decent book, they want their ideal book. Problem is its general fans Tim's needs to succeed, and they can't generate either with him. Tim isn't going to get the best and most expensive creative on him and they can't break the bank trying to market him when the return just isn't their. Its not the 90's and Tim's far beyond his novelty. Just because some characters could pull off 1000+ solo books 10 years ago doesn't mean they can do it now. It doesn't work that way. Tim Drake isn't even T'Challa, nothing about him give them a foot hold in other markets and media. Thats why they are doing what they are currently doing with him.

[Frontier]

They gave fans what they said they wanted. They brought back the traditional the YJ team and put on them a couple of their highest paid creators, and not enough showed up. Tim fans don't want a decent book, they want their ideal book. Problem is its general fans Tim's needs to succeed, and they can't generate either with him. Tim isn't going to get their best and most expensive creative on him and break the bank trying to market him when the return just isn't their.

I mean, it was basically a Monkey's Paw.

They got the original team back together but the new stories weren't great or interesting beyond the surface level and there was the whole "Drake" thing which didn't go over well.

[Godlike13]

That book debuted poorly.

[Frontier]

That book debuted poorly.

I don't think any of Bendis' DC books did great aside from his initial Superman stuff.

[Godlike13]

Or readers don’t actually care enough about those characters to pay for them. They shouldn’t have to break the bank to get people who says they want to buy their books to by their books. Apparently all they need is something “decent”. If Bendis and Gleason weren’t decent enough to get people to even try their book, what exactly are they suppose to do. What other creative team that they had in their stable do you think would have drew better?

[WebLurker]

And when it was pointed out how bad certain OTHERS were done (Hi Static, Firestorm, Jaime Reyes and others)-we saw fan attitudes of "who gives a bleep" or "who really really gives a bleep" or "nobody cared about them and they never should have existed in the first place" or "that character did NOTHING important".

Folks point out Tim, Conner, Bart, Wally, Kyle and others because once upon a time these folks were among your better sellers before the agendas and letting certain writers run unchecked.

1000+ solo books were among Tim, Bart, Conner, Kyle, Wally, Cassandra and Lobo. Yet certain folks at DC didn't feel like that was good enough.

It's not entitlement to want to see a decent book with your favorite character. Yet for some Tim fans are suppose to settle for whatever crumbs DC puts out.

You don't go bankrupt putting out ONE decent Tim Drake book. That is all folks are asking. Not him getting whored out like Batman.

You keep putting Tim in crappy books-you know what you get??? See T'Challa. Where you are getting a new run that might not make issue 6 because of alienating the very folks who would buy the book. That even trade and digital numbers won't help.

I'm a Spider-Man fan first and foremost, so I do know all about being forced to settle for crumbs (or having to sustain your fandom through rare stuff beyond the core comics). I'm also a Cassandra Cain fan, so I also know about editors taking away things entirely. Tim was actually given a chance, which is hella better that being erased with no guarantee of coming back.

[Aahz]

That book debuted poorly.

Issue #1 sold 73.9K that's at least decent, for a debut that is not proped up by something like rebirth.

Damian's Teen Titans series debut at 64.9K and the first issue with his new team sold 67.9K.