Are the days of creativity and innovation over for Spider-Man?

[The_Sneezing_Stormtrooper]

Wasn't the same dynamic, nor circumstances and also Felicia wasn't the more mature character she is now. Back then she was in love with Spider-Man more so than Peter Parker and would always make it a point to cover his face whenever they'd be intimate and the mask came off. She didn't want to 'play adult', neither of them did tbh. She later on wanted to start to get to know Peter, but was going to leave him because his life was in danger if she didn't, but he wound up leaving her first because he felt she seemed to only care about Spider-Man and not Peter Parker without knowing what she was about ready to sacrifice for him.

That was how it originally was. They've gone back and tried to add some layers to it, with the recent Symbiote Spider-Man and Black Cat run which showed them spending a little more time as Felicia was trying to get to know "Peter" more and adored his Aunt May. Even then, they were the same characters and Peter and her were both stubborn.

By the time Felicia had her character development and was in love with both Peter and Spider-Man they could never explore it because he was with Mary Jane, and that's how it's been since then. She had a lot of character progression and then had it ripped away in the (dark ages) and got it back a few years ago, and has been consistently growing as a character since then. They became best friends, and she confided in him secrets she wouldn't tell anyone else and experiences she didn't tell others. They trusted each other on an extreme level and became as close as two could get without dating. But they never got to explore the dynamic of that mature Black Cat and Peter Parker in a serious relationship in main continuity. Because he was with Mary Jane at the time and had been on and off with her even up till recently. So no, what's happening now isn't the same as what happened in the 80s. She isn't just dating "the mask" she's in a serious relationship and in love with Peter and is a far different character than she was back then. The dynamic is different, and the circumstances are different. Felicia is effectively not the same person she was in the 80s, or quite simply, they wouldn't be in a serious relationship right now.

So no, in the main continuity of the 616 a more mature Black Cat and Spider-Man had never gotten to explore what a serious relationship would look like between them. Trying to equate it to the relationship they had in the 80s is essentially ignoring those dynamics.

The relationship in the 80s was very flawed but it was still serious. It was an actual relationship, not a series of hook ups like they had during BND for example.

I don't know if I'd call what they have in the comics now is that serious yet. It still feels more like they're still testing the waters. We've seen them one one date so far and half of that was spent on Peter trying to convince Felicia he's over his ex.

I'm not saying they can't get there but calling Marvel innovative for giving us the mature Peter/Felicia relationship seems more than a bit premature to me. Especially since we know Marvel doesn't like Peter being in a serious relationship for too long.

[Majesty]

The relationship in the 80s was very flawed but it was still serious. It was an actual relationship, not a series of hook ups like they had during BND for example.

I don't know if I'd call what they have in the comics now is that serious yet. It still feels more like they're still testing the waters. We've seen them one one date so far and half of that was spent on Peter trying to convince Felicia he's over his ex.

I'm not saying they can't get there but calling Marvel innovative for giving us the mature Peter/Felicia relationship seems more than a bit premature to me. Especially since we know Marvel doesn't like Peter being in a serious relationship for too long.

Till Peter unmasked himself, it was still Felicia dating "Spider-Man" but not Peter. When he unmasked was his attempt at taking things to the next level, which she resisted. Eventually she 'tried' to get to know him more. But he left her because he couldn't deal with the feeling that she loved Spider-Man but Peter Parker left her cold. Again, she would say in later comics that had he been patient she would have come around. But they never got to explore that as by the time that was the case, he was already with Mary Jane. So we never got to see the 'seriousness' of Felicia and Peter together. After that however they started to form a bond and a friendship and flings at times, but nothing that had staying power.

Then in ETMD was when Felicia revealed how much she did love both Peter and Spider-Man but it was too late for her to take advantage of that. So it pretty much remained in that area, till again (the dark ages), but then it finally got set right again. But since then, Felicia's shown levels of character growth that effectively makes her a different person than the way she was portrayed in the 80s. Which is a very good thing. However at the same time, a relationship with Peter was still not on the table, and she had moved on into other relationships, most notably with Odessa and with Tamara Blake. But her friendship and bond with Peter remained and they did missions together, most famously the 'wedding' one. But again, more than friends was off the table.

So it really hasn't been till recently till we've gotten to see this version of Felicia with all that character growth that loves Peter through and through, secret identity and all and Peter have a serious relationship.

She doesn't "slip the mask" back on him anymore, if you catch my drift. So what they have now, is a completely new dynamic. That's also outside of the fact that she's more a hero with underworld ties than anti-hero/antagonist/villain anymore. As far as them testing the waters go, they seem pretty committed to doing it right this time and seriously. Time shall always tell. But given how things are going and the fact Felicia no longer feels guilty about it because of MJ, it seems that from all surrounding parties and scenarios they have the green light. So if there was ever enough things that needed to be said about where there relationship is and is headed, it's essentially this. So at this point, they can just be. As the other loose ends have been tied up. So we shall see.

[The_Sneezing_Stormtrooper]

Till Peter unmasked himself, it was still Felicia dating "Spider-Man" but not Peter. When he unmasked was his attempt at taking things to the next level, which she resisted. Eventually she 'tried' to get to know him more. But he left her because he couldn't deal with the feeling that she loved Spider-Man but Peter Parker left her cold. Again, she would say in later comics that had he been patient she would have come around. But they never got to explore that as by the time that was the case, he was already with Mary Jane. So we never got to see the 'seriousness' of Felicia and Peter together. After that however they started to form a bond and a friendship and flings at times, but nothing that had staying power.

Then in ETMD was when Felicia revealed how much she did love both Peter and Spider-Man but it was too late for her to take advantage of that. So it pretty much remained in that area, till again (the dark ages), but then it finally got set right again. But since then, Felicia's shown levels of character growth that effectively makes her a different person than the way she was portrayed in the 80s. Which is a very good thing. However at the same time, a relationship with Peter was still not on the table, and she had moved on into other relationships, most notably with Odessa and with Tamara Blake. But her friendship and bond with Peter remained and they did missions together, most famously the 'wedding' one. But again, more than friends was off the table.

So it really hasn't been till recently till we've gotten to see this version of Felicia with all that character growth that loves Peter through and through, secret identity and all and Peter have a serious relationship.

She doesn't "slip the mask" back on him anymore, if you catch my drift. So what they have now, is a completely new dynamic. That's also outside of the fact that she's more a hero with underworld ties than anti-hero/antagonist/villain anymore. As far as them testing the waters go, they seem pretty committed to doing it right this time and seriously. Time shall always tell. But given how things are going and the fact Felicia no longer feels guilty about it because of MJ, it seems that from all surrounding parties and scenarios they have the green light. So if there was ever enough things that needed to be said about where there relationship is and is headed, it's essentially this. So at this point, they can just be. As the other loose ends have been tied up. So we shall see.

There was still a good chunk of time after he unmasked where they tried to make it work as a relationship. It was flawed but I don't see how what they're doing now is currently any more serious than where they were. Peter obviously still has feelings for MJ and I wouldnt be surprised if this arc ended with a wrench being thrown into her family situation.

I agree that time will tell with how serious this will get but Marvel's track record since OMD speaks for itself. I like Peter and Felicia and if I'm proven wrong over time then cool but considering how Marvel has treated Peter's relationships over the last 15 years I think they should have to actually put in the work before getting credit.

[Kevinroc]

If you want to play the game of "If it's happened with other superheroes" logic where you want to go through the entire history of comics, it's impossible for any comic of any story to be innovative because another came first over the past 70 years that did the same thing or similar. We can say the same thing of movies as well and TV Shows bar maybe 1 or 2 outliers that will then have their same concepts done several times after. With your logic, nothing can be innovative, because there's always a story that has explored those themes or done something similar, so therefore there'd be no point in ever discussing it.

Fortunately the question in this thread isn't "are the days of creativity and innovation over for comics?" it's asking about "Spider-Man" comics. So that's where the discussion stands and bringing in other comics is irrelevant and moot. They don't have to do with Spider-Man so they don't belong in the discussion.

So yes, it's new to Spider-Man, so that is the worldview we stay in. If you want to suddenly extend it to "All comics", then you're never getting innovation so the thread would be pointless. Fortunately this thread doesn't. So "But I've something like it somewhere else before." is irrelevant.

So when it comes to innovation about Spider-Man, it's best to stick to the subject and world of situations being about and within Spider-Man. So whatever you saw "elsewhere", is irrelevant to it happening in Spider-Man. Saying "A mature Black Cat dating Spider-Man isn't new.. because in other comics heroes have dated each other before.." means absolutely nothing, because it comes down to "Did it happen between Spider-Man and Black Cat with this dynamic?" and the answer will be no, and therefore it's new. It's not a semantics game, it's about Spider-Man and his world and experiences. So any topic about what it does new, pertains to it alone.

But if there's ever a "Are the days of innovation and creativity in comics done?" your "But I've seen it done in other comics" go-to argument will have an actual relevancy to the discussion at hand.

Otherwise you become that person that if something new happens, you try to dismiss it because something similar happened in some story, somewhere at some point. That person that if Peter Parker ever lost his mind and cut off Norman Osborne's head and became a dictator molded by a life of trauma and someone goes "I did not see that coming! I've never seen Peter taken in that direction." says to their surprised person "Seen Wonder Woman do that to Mera, it's nothing new."

So please, for sake of the actual topic at hand, I humbly request you not be.

This just reads like you really like Spider-Man x Black Cat and the book doing a lethargic half-assed romance subplot between them is enough to make you swoon and declare the title is being bold and innovative. And we've seen Spider-Man in lethargic half-assed romances before, even lethargic half-assed romances with a costumed woman in the pages of ASM before (Mockingbird was at Peter's party in #900).

Other titles aren't going to rush to imitate this run or the tone of this run. This isn't Fraction's Hawkeye.

[exile001]

Other titles aren't going to rush to imitate this run or the tone of this run. This isn't Fraction's Hawkeye.

This isn't even Mark Gruenwald's Hawkeye.

[PCN24454]

When I was discussing Spider-Man and Black Cat, I was talking about them fighting crime together platonically. I hate how this thread got sidetracked by romance again.

[Darthfury78]

When I was discussing Spider-Man and Black Cat, I was talking about them fighting crime together platonically. I hate how this thread got sidetracked by romance again.

I would had rather see Spider-Man and She-Hulk in a serious relationship.

[marhawkman]

I would had rather see Spider-Man and She-Hulk in a serious relationship.

-_-' that's one ship that's way too crowded. more She-Hulk romances? DO NOT WANT!

[Jman27]

When I was discussing Spider-Man and Black Cat, I was talking about them fighting crime together platonically. I hate how this thread got sidetracked by romance again.

the whole spider-man forum is like this though

[Darthfury78]

I would had rather see Spider-Man and She-Hulk in a serious relationship.

On the Parker side, I can't understand why the writers don't make Betty Brant Parker's love interest once again. Giving Betty a baby just doesn't make any sense except that it was lazy story telling. Why on Earth would Betty ever get back with Ned Leeds, when her heart wants to return to Peter Parker once again.

[Darthfury78]

-_-' that's one ship that's way too crowded. more She-Hulk romances? DO NOT WANT!

Unlike all of the other She-Hulk romance, with Parker, it would open a lot to story telling potential. There's Spider-Man and Deadpool. Why not Spider-Man and She-Hulk whose stories could lead to interesting story arc that would be well received. All these writers are doing is repeating stories that's already told as oppose to those that hasn't. One example if Parker working for She-Hulk as a part time paralegal who helps Jennifer prepare her court cases and crime fighting solo adventures respectively. None of Jennifer's past lovers has done that at the same time, as far as I know.

[marhawkman]

Unlike all of the other She-Hulk romance, with Parker, it would open a lot to story telling potential. There's Spider-Man and Deadpool. Why not Spider-Man and She-Hulk whose stories could lead to interesting story arc that would be well received. All these writers are doing is repeating stories that's already told as oppose to those that hasn't. One example if Parker working for She-Hulk as a part time paralegal who helps Jennifer prepare her court cases and crime fighting solo adventures respectively. None of Jennifer's past lovers has done that at the same time, as far as I know.

Enh..... could work.... not sold that it'd make a good story though.

[Lukmendes]

Hell yea. Post-MacKay Felicia is new, popular take on a fan fave character. We haven't seen her like this, and I'm rooting for her and Pete to make it work

MacKay isn't doing anything new with Felicia, her being more mature was already done in the 90's and 2000's, all he did was, bring that back.

If anything the "new" thing would be a "mature" Felicia dating Spidey now, which never happened before, and isn't MacKay's doing, and whether or not Wells is doing a good job at it is, not something I care about finding out.

Maturity for Felicia is leaving Peter behind. She left her life of crime behind to start dating Peter in the 80s. Ever since then her life has revolved round Peter. Every time a writer tries to grow her up away from Peter someone drags her emotional life back.
Ok - we can all agree not to acknowledge the existence of Queenpin.
Jed MacKay's series has her happily pursuing a life of morally gray crime independent of Peter. And then Wells and Lowe have just dragged her back. She's presumably left her life of crime behind to start dating Peter again. It's a repeat of where she was when she started out. With the current creative team I wouldn't be at all surprised should Marvel decide to break them up by having Felicia have an obviously dodgy deal with a bad guy to help Peter that Peter can't accept.
Jed MacKay was writing Felicia as having grown up and moved on, in ways that are irrelevant to maintaining a successful relationship, especially a successful relationship with Peter. He has her lying to Peter (not actually for any particularly good reasons), and Peter just believes her or she thinks he does. One of them clearly just does not understand the other. (Which one it is is not clear.) Any character development in Felicia that would make the Felicia/Peter relationship successful has been unearned.

If Felicia/Peter is to work - and I don't think it can because
a) Felicia just does not belong in the world of Peter when he's not Spider-man - she's not that sort of grounded character;
and b) we all want to see Felicia doing fun morally grey heists of which Peter would disapprove;
if Felicia/Peter is to work we would need to see Felicia developing a moral compass that is closer to Peter's or at least one that Peter can respect, outside of Peter's influence. If she develops a moral compass while she's dating Peter then it's narratively ambiguous as to whether she's just doing it to please Peter, which isn't really a moral compass at all. From where she is now, the only way she can get to a position in which it would respect the character we know and love for her to date Peter is for her to break up with Peter.
In the long term, what Felicia needs as a character is to have to make the decision between doing a thing that is morally right according to a defensible scale of values that aren't Peter's values on the one hand and staying with Peter on the other hand, and to choose the former.

(If Felicia 'maturing' means she stops being a character who daydreams about sailing off into the sunset with Cary Grant and becomes a character who daydreams about settling down with Peter in the suburbs and bringing up a couple of spider-kittens, we do not want her to 'mature'.)

Yeah that's a big reason why I always thought it was okay for Spidey and Felicia to not work together, either Spidey or Felicia would need to compromise in what they want, and it can be complicated to make it work because of that, and some people just aren't compatible because of very different beliefs, accepting this is healthy, and I found it to be rather mature of ASM, even if that likely wasn't the intention.

Like, one of both can have their personalities changed just enough to make it work, but that's cheap lol.

I like TAS Black Cat too much to think that she can’t work as a hero or Spider-Man’s partner. It’s honestly annoying how people constantly look for excuses on why Peter should isolated.

She has a different characterization and is way less selfish there lol.

I don't see them as romantic partners but that doesn't mean I want her out of Peter's life. People can be just friends.

For whatever reason a lot of people think characters just have to be shipped with each other, can't be just friends.

I find it kinda gross, but then again, I have a low opinion about shipping in general.

We cancel the books and retire Peter as a character.

You're so insistent in this lol.

The fact that it's happened with other superheroes by definition means Spider-Man isn't being innovative.

I mean, something can be innovative for a franchise itself, or even for a specific medium but not when it comes to writing overall.

Honestly, being actually innovative is almost impossible, like, Immortal Hulk, isn't innovative because having this horror angle was done before by Bruce Jones on his Hulk run.

It certainly did something unusual though, but if we use "another super-hero comic did this", then actual innovations are rare... You can't even say Hickman's take on X-Men is that 'cause they're just Inhumans/Eternals now lol.

The worse part about it is that Marvel might give Dan Slott another go on Amazing Spider-Man.

Unlikely, Slott has said before that ASM is an young man's game and that he can't do twice per month comics anymore.

It could be a lie, but I find it to be unlikely.

What would be interesting to see is for Abomination, Omega Red, and The Leader to become Spider-Man rogue. Especially Abomination to don The Venom Symbiote as Spider-Man's true nightmate.

Just Abomination alone would be too much for Spidey to deal with normally, villains like him have Spidey needing something big for Spidey to take them down, and being fought too frequently would be diminishing results, like Morlun.

Giving him a symbiote on top of that? Yeah...

When I was discussing Spider-Man and Black Cat, I was talking about them fighting crime together platonically. I hate how this thread got sidetracked by romance again.

You replied with the context of romance being mentioned around lol.

I would had rather see Spider-Man and She-Hulk in a serious relationship.

Of course you would lol.

On the Parker side, I can't understand why the writers don't make Betty Brant Parker's love interest once again. Giving Betty a baby just doesn't make any sense except that it was lazy story telling. Why on Earth would Betty ever get back with Ned Leeds, when her heart wants to return to Peter Parker once again.

She has moved on from Spidey a long time ago, and even when BND decided to make Spidey into a harem protagonist they made it clear that Betty only sees him as a friend, so I dunno what the hell you're talking about.

Specially asking "Why would Betty go back to the man she loves who she thought was dead?", like, come on man...

Enh..... could work.... not sold that it'd make a good story though.

DarthFury78 is like that.

A few years back he used to say "Spider-Man and Black Widow should've become closer to each other in the 80's" and give a bunch of nonsensical reasons for that.

[PCN24454]

Ending the series would solve everyone’s problems. If Peter and MJ get married in the finale, then we can just assume that they lived happily ever after.

We wouldn’t have to worry about constantly reusing villains or trying to make up new ones. Things can just be whatever we imagine it to be.

[Alan2099]

Ending the series would solve everyone’s problems. If Peter and MJ get married in the finale, then we can just assume that they lived happily ever after.

We wouldn’t have to worry about constantly reusing villains or trying to make up new ones. Things can just be whatever we imagine it to be.

I really hope you're just joking and don't sincerely think that the franchise should end just because you're bored. It's hard to tell these days.