Are the days of creativity and innovation over for Spider-Man?

[exile001]

The lack of migration of other characters is what's killing comics in general because of the segreation of characters to their respective Editoial Department.

I think comics being tied to a massive greater continuity has become a weight dragging them medium down (and has been getting there for decades).

A big part of the reason you won't get Peter as a character in a She-Hulk book is because they'd then have to justify it in Peter's books and balance it by leading to a crossover or something greater. It could never just be for this run Peter is just here, no reason other than the writer thought it'd be fun.

It's a shame, but the way Marvel (and later DC) have treated their characters' shared universe walls off a lot of fun stuff from happening. Ironically enough, if there were more segregation you'd be more likely to see it.

Unless they decide on a Spider-man/She-Hulk book, but the Deadpool one only happened because Deadpool absolutely exploded in popularity, and I still reckon that it might not have happened without a team like Kelly and McGinness.

[Bruce Wayne]

The lack of migration of other characters is what's killing comics in general because of the segreation of characters to their respective Editoial Department.

The various offices have been around since the 90s though so that can't be the culprit unless you believe there's been nothing good since the Harras era. In addition to this, this division only exists on paper. For example Bendis's Avengers book was able to use Wolverine and Spider-Man (probably because it big thing backed by Joe Q). Not to mention the recent crossover like Dark Web, which is very much tied in with the events in the X-books.

[PCN24454]

I think comics being tied to a massive greater continuity has become a weight dragging them medium down (and has been getting there for decades).

A big part of the reason you won't get Peter as a character in a She-Hulk book is because they'd then have to justify it in Peter's books and balance it by leading to a crossover or something greater. It could never just be for this run Peter is just here, no reason other than the writer thought it'd be fun.

It's a shame, but the way Marvel (and later DC) have treated their characters' shared universe walls off a lot of fun stuff from happening. Ironically enough, if there were more segregation you'd be more likely to see it.

Unless they decide on a Spider-man/She-Hulk book, but the Deadpool one only happened because Deadpool absolutely exploded in popularity, and I still reckon that it might not have happened without a team like Kelly and McGinness.

That’s honestly why I prefer it when Spider-Man is in his own continuity. It allows for a more coherent timeline and world.

It’s honestly the reason why stuff like manga isn’t stuck in an endless time loop.

[JungleBatman]

I'm ashamed at Marvel now... They did a South Park reference, BY COMPLETE ACCIDENT!!

[Darthfury78]

That’s honestly why I prefer it when Spider-Man is in his own continuity. It allows for a more coherent timeline and world.

It’s honestly the reason why stuff like manga isn’t stuck in an endless time loop.

There is nothing wrong with Peter Parker appearing on other titles in a non Spider-Man role as scientist/ advisor... Keeping things in one department segregates the creativity to use other characters who could fit the narative.

[exile001]

There is nothing wrong with Peter Parker appearing on other titles in a non Spider-Man role as scientist/ advisor... Keeping things in one department segregates the creativity to use other characters who could fit the narrative.

Why would a creator use Peter rather than Reed or Tony for this?

While the last two decades have finally given Peter jobs in the field, he has often lost those jobs pretty quickly. He usually gets fired and he tanked Parker Industries in under a year. He only has this job as his mate's Dad employed him. is he still back at ESU studying to reclaim his Doctorate?

If we're talking sales, to help boost a book, then it's a no-brainer, but just adding him because you can isn't a great idea. I personally don't think it's particularly creative to add Spider-Man to a book instead of creating a new character or revamping someone obscure.

[Ravin' Ray]

I kinda wish there wasn't one ship that is being overpromoted with supreme confidence in its superiority that other ideas are being drowned out that have their merits and deserve a voice too,

[exile001]

I kinda wish there wasn't one ship that is being overpromoted with supreme confidence in its superiority that other ideas are being drowned out that have their merits and deserve a voice too,

Start a thread, lay out your position and bring one! I'd be more than happy to discuss.

My preference is Pete/MJ*, but it's over (then isn't, then is, then isn't, etc) so I don't dwell on it and would be more than happy to see a new pairing.

I'm actually solidly on the side that Marvel completely whiffed Carlie because they spent two years building her as a suitable new love interest without realising the first two new love interests (at least) were going to be rejected outright just because they weren't MJ. Fans were never going to accept her, which sucks as Carlie was a pretty good, well built character with careful consideration over what could make her interesting longer term.

*comics usually have a "the one" philosophy on dating/relationships, and Pete/MJ were married for 20 odd years and dating long before. That probably covers the formative years of most readers here which explains the attachment. I get that some here cannot and will not let it go, but there are plenty of us who are more reasonable if the pairing is interesting/thought out.

[marhawkman]

I'd happily read a new relationship story if it's one using characters who don't already have one.

I liked the Lily/Harry story.

"But Lily didn't date Pete?"

EXACTLY! I liked it because it WASN'T Liy/Pete.

Writing a romance-oriented Spider-man comic doesn't require you to write Spider-man as part of the romance.

also, I must contend that it's not "creativity and innovation"... if all you're doing is repainting what we already have. Thus, no new love interest for Spider-man will ever fit the bill.

[Jman27]

Start a thread, lay out your position and bring one! I'd be more than happy to discuss.

My preference is Pete/MJ*, but it's over (then isn't, then is, then isn't, etc) so I don't dwell on it and would be more than happy to see a new pairing.

I'm actually solidly on the side that Marvel completely whiffed Carlie because they spent two years building her as a suitable new love interest without realising the first two new love interests (at least) were going to be rejected outright just because they weren't MJ. Fans were never going to accept her, which sucks as Carlie was a pretty good, well built character with careful consideration over what could make her interesting longer term.

*comics usually have a "the one" philosophy on dating/relationships, and Pete/MJ were married for 20 odd years and dating long before. That probably covers the formative years of most readers here which explains the attachment. I get that some here cannot and will not let it go, but there are plenty of us who are more reasonable if the pairing is interesting/thought out.

if marvel would put that amount of time to other relationships that Peter had besides MJ

[TinkerSpider]

I wish Marvel evidenced that they understood or even attempted to understand the parasocial relationship between fans and narrative worlds - Dr. Jennifer Barnes's TEDx talk is a great place to start - and also how psychological identification plays into how audiences relate to characters, especially when it comes to shipping (here's a Twitter thread, also from Dr. Barnes).

And I wish that Marvel understood that shipping (this article starts with Peter and MJ but he leaves out the hyphen in Spider-Man, for shame!) goes back hundreds of years, long before the X-Files caused the term "shipping" to be coined. From the article, "As fans, people may not be the author of the fictional worlds they love to inhabit, but when they ship, they can momentarily grab the wheel in the most exhilarating of ways—envisioning and championing relationships that demonstrate their own mastery of a created universe, and their true feelings about how love should exist in that world, if not indeed in their own. ... As much as we fans pull for our favorite characters to get together, when we ship we are ultimately rooting for love itself, and for the triumph of these two rare elements, grace and will. Whether real or fictional, our ships represent our faith in our fellow humans to take the leap of imagination necessary to connect with another human being. To take off our masks; to succeed in the heroic act of accepting love, and to have the courage to risk offering it."

And I wish Marvel would not come across as viewing fans as occupying the opposite corner in a puglistic cage match to the death, but would rather appear to consider them as partners in storytelling, seeking to delight the audience instead of promising to anger and upset them. There are ways to de-emphasize a ship; but the ship needs to be acknowledged as mattering to the narrative and to the audience first, and treated with respect.

Until then, I don't think we will see much creativity and innovation in Spider-Man. He's stuck in a weird limbo of resentment on both sides.

[CrimsonEchidna]

I kinda wish there wasn't one ship that is being overpromoted with supreme confidence in its superiority that other ideas are being drowned out that have their merits and deserve a voice too,

If I have one legit criticism of the Spider-Office its the fact that, as much as they trumpet the whole "an angry customer is a paying customer" mantra, they've constantly danced around actually writing a proper breakup issue between Pete and MJ. People unsurprisingly raged at that issue of Pete telling Felicia that he's no longer in love with MJ but in hindsight I'm more scratching my head over why Pete and MJ just can't have that simple conversation instead of this rigmarole of MJ ending up in this apocalyptic New York where time advances and now she has (maybe biological) kids with another guy because so much time has passed since she last saw Pete. lol

[Astroman]

I wish Marvel evidenced that they understood or even attempted to understand the parasocial relationship between fans and narrative worlds - Dr. Jennifer Barnes's TEDx talk is a great place to start - and also how psychological identification plays into how audiences relate to characters, especially when it comes to shipping (here's a Twitter thread, also from Dr. Barnes).

And I wish that Marvel understood that shipping (this article starts with Peter and MJ but he leaves out the hyphen in Spider-Man, for shame!) goes back hundreds of years, long before the X-Files caused the term "shipping" to be coined. From the article, "As fans, people may not be the author of the fictional worlds they love to inhabit, but when they ship, they can momentarily grab the wheel in the most exhilarating of ways—envisioning and championing relationships that demonstrate their own mastery of a created universe, and their true feelings about how love should exist in that world, if not indeed in their own. ... As much as we fans pull for our favorite characters to get together, when we ship we are ultimately rooting for love itself, and for the triumph of these two rare elements, grace and will. Whether real or fictional, our ships represent our faith in our fellow humans to take the leap of imagination necessary to connect with another human being. To take off our masks; to succeed in the heroic act of accepting love, and to have the courage to risk offering it."

And I wish Marvel would not come across as viewing fans as occupying the opposite corner in a puglistic cage match to the death, but would rather appear to consider them as partners in storytelling, seeking to delight the audience instead of promising to anger and upset them. There are ways to de-emphasize a ship; but the ship needs to be acknowledged as mattering to the narrative and to the audience first, and treated with respect.

Until then, I don't think we will see much creativity and innovation in Spider-Man. He's stuck in a weird limbo of resentment on both sides.

Those are great points. One of the things I do in my meatspace world is study folkloristics and mythological functions within oral cultures. One thing that oral storytellers (by whatever cultural name) do is they *have* to tailor the tales to meet the needs/wants of the listeners - while still staying within the parameters of the oral tale (as recognized by the tribe/village/etc.). They can lean into the elements that resonate while avoiding those that might be discordant with the body politic.

This is one of the ways that regional variants of tales originate.

Bringing this back to comics and Spider-Editorial, "partnering" with their readership, in ways you suggest, might be a great way to go. I'm a big supporter of authorial rights and the vision of the auteur, but with characters like these, that are over decades written by a rotating team of writers, the situation is closer to a collective mythological base than an auteur one.

And if the audience has an emotional stake (in that they are somewhat involved, or at least listened to in good faith) they will be even more invested in participating, buying, etc.

It would be far closer to a Win-Win than the current model.

[Scott Taylor]

As the boy at the Oracle's house says, “Do not try and bend the spoon, that’s impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth… there is no spoon. Then you’ll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself."

Spider-Man only seems stagnant when the reader or writer can't come up with new stories to tell. Regardless, there are new stories to tell. And there are old stories that can be told better. Since most stories are old stories, the two are one and the same. In other words, the stagnancy is in us, not in the fictional character.

tl:dr version: no

[WebLurker]

If I have one legit criticism of the Spider-Office its the fact that, as much as they trumpet the whole "an angry customer is a paying customer" mantra, they've constantly danced around actually writing a proper breakup issue between Pete and MJ. People unsurprisingly raged at that issue of Pete telling Felicia that he's no longer in love with MJ but in hindsight I'm more scratching my head over why Pete and MJ just can't have that simple conversation instead of this rigmarole of MJ ending up in this apocalyptic New York where time advances and now she has (maybe biological) kids with another guy because so much time has passed since she last saw Pete. lol

But that would ruin the mystery box!