Are the days of creativity and innovation over for Spider-Man?

[TinkerSpider]

I mean, what exactly are Superior or Parker Industries rehashing?

Superior is a bombastic and IMO an inferior Kraven’s Last Hunt.

Parker Industries is a rehash of Horizon, which is a remix of Peter working in labs as a grad student/Norman wanting Peter to work for him, and we’re seeing yet another iteration of Pete the lab jockey in Wells’s run. Basically, it’s just giving Peter shiny toys to play with (so shiny real world toys can be made out of the new costumes/action figure accessories) and then taking them away, only to rinse and repeat.

Or, for that matter, how are they different from Krakoa, a bigger, shinier Asteroid M with a tropical theme?

The X-Men are immortal, for one.

[marhawkman]

Sal's right about that. (much as I'd love everyone to buy the current run so it may run longer). Also, I practice what I preach, having dropped the book in 2019 and picked it back up with Beyond.

"Creativity" is vague, as Mr. Mets noted. Everything listed below can be labeled under creative ideas

>Symbiote suit
>Marriage
>Clone Saga
>Spider-Totems
>Aunt May finds out Peter's Spidey
>The Other
>Peter dates a Cop
>Firing from the Bugle
>Science Gig at Horizon
>Superior Spider-Man
>Spider-Verse
>Parker Industries
>Roommates with Boomerang
>JJJ finds out Peter's Spidey
>Peter dates a Thief

I guess you can make an argument that the few of these developments lasted, but that's true of older stuff, too. Nathan Lubensky's nowhere to be found. Nestled within the unending story that is Spider-Man are many finite stories: some reverberate stronger, and some don't.

Again, personal tastes are king here. One man's innovation is another's Out Of Character(TM) behavior. IMHO, Krakoa's the best thing that's happened to the X-Men in forever, but snoop around, and you'll find folks who disdain it wholeheartedly. My yum's their yuck!

I'mma add to that list "Peter acts as surrogate father to Gwen's daughter." I didn't hate that story NEARLY as much as a lot of people did. yeah I get the whole "but why would Gwen...." angle... the rest of the story was actually GOOD IMO.

[bob.schoonover]

They treated Kraven and Sin-Eater seriously and dangerously, whether you bought into it or not is probably a your mileage may vary situation. Boomerang was meant to be comedic and heartfelt.

Some of the Team focus episodes in season 2 were good (mostly White Tiger's) but it still had some fairly lackluster ones. I think it was season 3 were it became more solidly decent.

But yeah the show didn't quite know what to do with the team most of the time.

I mean, he died trying to do right by Peter and make up for his mistakes. How does that not count as a redemption?

He didn't use his dying breath to mention any of the three evil plots he'd already enacted to mess with Peter, MJ, Norman, and Normie?

Harry, I suppose, met the Darth Vader standard for one redemptive act contemporaneous with death, but I don't think it's absurd to think saving the people he put in danger one time fully redeems him for a litany of bad acts*

*Granted, most of the bad acts are retcons (robot parents, Legacy of Evil, the Sins Past retcon Rube Goldberg project), and it's entirely fair to say (like Anakin and Vader) that Harry saved Peter while the Goblin formula (mental illness or Mephisto also apply) was responsible for the bad acts

[Frontier]

Superior is a bombastic and IMO an inferior Kraven’s Last Hunt.

Parker Industries is a rehash of Horizon, which is a remix of Peter working in labs as a grad student/Norman wanting Peter to work for him, and we’re seeing yet another iteration of Pete the lab jockey in Wells’s run. Basically, it’s just giving Peter shiny toys to play with (so shiny real world toys can be made out of the new costumes/action figure accessories) and then taking them away, only to rinse and repeat.

On a base level there's the "villain dresses up as the hero after "killing" them and trying to prove they're better" but in practice they were completely different.

I mean, I think Kraven's Last Hunt was a more concise and better told story but a lot of people enjoyed Doc Ock applying Supervillain logic to being a Superhero.

I'm personally not big on Peter's science jobs, though I know some prefer it.

The X-Men are immortal, for one.

And die so often you wonder how they avoided death for so many years.

[TinkerSpider]

On a base level there's the "villain dresses up as the hero after "killing" them and trying to prove they're better" but in practice they were completely different.

I mean, I think Kraven's Last Hunt was a more concise and better told story but a lot of people enjoyed Doc Ock applying Supervillain logic to being a Superhero.

Right, that’s why I wouldn’t call either story incredibly innovative. They are both playing with the same trope, only IMO Kraven is the far superior adaptation of that trope.

I’m not saying people can’t enjoy Superior :-), it has its moments especially when Gage was writing SpOck - just that as a story, in my opinion Kraven’s Last Hunt is the far better told one.

I'm personally not big on Peter's science jobs, though I know some prefer it.

Me either - I think it takes away from the fun of seeing Peter use his smarts and quick thinking to outwit the bad guys instead of relying on gadgets or requiring rescue - but gotta sell new toys! LOL

And die so often you wonder how they avoided death for so many years.

Maybe they take more risks knowing there is no downside? Kinda like having a money back guarantee when you try new things LOL.

[Daibhidh]

And die so often you wonder how they avoided death for so many years.

These are the X-Men we're talking about? How many of them haven't come back from the dead at least once? Kurt even came back from officially definitely actually the afterlife.

[Frontier]

Right, that’s why I wouldn’t call either story incredibly innovative. They are both playing with the same trope, only IMO Kraven is the far superior adaptation of that trope.

I’m not saying people can’t enjoy Superior :-), it has its moments especially when Gage was writing SpOck - just that as a story, in my opinion Kraven’s Last Hunt is the far better told one.

I definitely think from a writing and conveying the overall message perspective, Kraven is the superior (heh) story, but I also just think it's important to keep in mind that in practice the stories were very different in terms of what they were trying to accomplish.

Me either - I think it takes away from the fun of seeing Peter use his smarts and quick thinking to outwit the bad guys instead of relying on gadgets or requiring rescue - but gotta sell new toys! LOL

Agreed, but I at least understand if people want his science side emphasized more even if I don't care for his science jobs myself.

Maybe they take more risks knowing there is no downside? Kinda like having a money back guarantee when you try new things LOL.

These are the X-Men we're talking about? How many of them haven't come back from the dead at least once? Kurt even came back from officially definitely actually the afterlife.

But it feels like they die and get brought back every month or so now. Or dying within multiple months in multiple titles. It just gets to be a bit much.

[Username taken]

I'm still trying to figure out how Marvel not retelling one story it already did and telling different stories instead means they're not being creative anymore.

Seems like the opposite of being creative to me.

My thoughts exactly.

[Agent Z]

Me either - I think it takes away from the fun of seeing Peter use his smarts and quick thinking to outwit the bad guys instead of relying on gadgets or requiring rescue - but gotta sell new toys! LOL

Is there really a difference? He still built them and it requires brains to know when and how to use them.

[Frontier]

Is there really a difference? He still built them and it requires brains to know when and how to use them.

Yeah, but I feel like there's a preference for Peter using his wits and environment in the field to stop a bad guy rather than a gadget of the week.

[PCN24454]

They treated Kraven and Sin-Eater seriously and dangerously, whether you bought into it or not is probably a your mileage may vary situation. Boomerang was meant to be comedic and heartfelt.

Some of the Team focus episodes in season 2 were good (mostly White Tiger's) but it still had some fairly lackluster ones. I think it was season 3 were it became more solidly decent.

But yeah the show didn't quite know what to do with the team most of the time.

I mean, he died trying to do right by Peter and make up for his mistakes. How does that not count as a redemption?

Can you imagine Harry and Peter going out to drinks and being friendly with each other? If not, then don’t consider that to be redemption. That’s why he had to die at the end; he wasn’t really redeemed.

[WebLurker]

Most importantly, he urged people to stop buying this book if they are unhappy with the content. DC and Marvel do not respond to online controversy. They only respond to changes in sales. He said after this issue, he's finished with it.

Second most important thing is to replace the Spider-Man issues you buy with something else published from Marvel; as I understand it, has more of an impact how the sales are read by the bean counters and highlights the embargoed series as performing less than it used to. (Not sure if replacing ASM with alternate Spider-Man series, like Lost Hunt, would or would not have the same effect as a completely different series, but there it is.)

[Frontier]

Can you imagine Harry and Peter going out to drinks and being friendly with each other? If not, then don’t consider that to be redemption. That’s why he had to die at the end; he wasn’t really redeemed.

Under what context? Even if he redeemed himself it doesn't mean they would 100% be okay with each other again, that's really up to the individual or the circumstance.

[exile001]

Can you imagine Harry and Peter going out to drinks and being friendly with each other? If not, then don’t consider that to be redemption. That’s why he had to die at the end; he wasn’t really redeemed.

Peter literally holds his hand as he dies, an expression of his forgiveness and love for his friend. The intention and staging shows that Harry is redeemed.



...of course, this ignores the hell he put his wife through. The comics don't dwell on that, and she eventually wound up with clone Harry anyway so it's just cool, I guess? I do wish Spider-writers would realise Liz is an interesting character outside of being abused by Harry/Norman.

[PanicPixieDreamGirl]

Can you imagine Harry and Peter going out to drinks and being friendly with each other? If not, then don’t consider that to be redemption. That’s why he had to die at the end; he wasn’t really redeemed.

JM DeMatteis wrote that very story! (without the drinks)

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