Superman in the Public Domain Discussion Thread

[Jeffrey2]

Good article on problems WB will be facing when their IPs start going public.

This is the issue - it's basically a zero-sum game.

Once the DC characters enter the public domain, other studios will be able to create imitations and knockoffs, resulting in a saturated market, less money for everyone involved, and a lack of investment in the characters. Marvel may also face similar challenges in the future.

https://movieweb.com/dcu-warner-bros...public-domain/

[Ascended]

Good article on problems WB will be facing when their IPs start going public.

This is the issue - it's basically a zero-sum game.

Once the DC characters enter the public domain, other studios will be able to create imitations and knockoffs, resulting in a saturated market, less money for everyone involved, and a lack of investment in the characters. Marvel may also face similar challenges in the future.

https://movieweb.com/dcu-warner-bros...public-domain/

I don’t buy the argument. Sounds like ‘DC doesn’t want the competition’ to me. Less money for everyone is really just less potential money for them. WB just don’t want to run the off risk that another version might, against the odds, cut into their profits.

Who knows what the law will say in ten years but odds are DC will still hold all the advantage, just as Disney does now with Steamboat Willie. I suspect that in a decade if you have a Superman story to tell and you take it to a major entertainment company you’ll find gentlemen’s agreements with WB baring your way. Sony won’t make your film, Netflix won’t stream your show, Tor won’t publish your novel, because they all get generous deals with WB if they only support the ‘real’ versions. You’ll be forced to self fund, so you’ll turn to social media and kickstarters, only to find your videos buried at the bottom of people’s feeds, or locked down by an ‘accidental’ copyright flag they never quite get around to removing. If you persist the lawyers will come with bribes and intimidation. If that doesn’t work, lawsuits. They’ll request, quite reasonably, that you hold off on your project until the judge makes a ruling. Then they’ll delay, and appeal, and delay and appeal. They’re on retainer and get paid regardless but every day you spend in court is a day not working on your project, every dollar spent in legal fees is a dollar taken from your story. You’ll go broke before they do, your project will die, and it doesn’t even matter if they don’t have a winning case. This sounds cynical but it’s what’s happened with Winnie the Poo and Steamboat Willie. Just a few examples of each that I’ve heard of, not a ton of people have tried to take advantage of these guys being public yet.

And when you do force a project through, you’ll still be competing against the version with all the history, characters, and trappings that people associate with the ‘classic and true’ Superman, with all the corporate muscle of Warners behind it.

Which isn’t to say we won’t get some great domain stuff. We will. And again, we’re talking a decade from now and a lot of new precedent is gonna be set by then. But we’re not going to be buried under so much content the entire character dies from over exposure.

[Gaius]

Thought I'd post this here but I did a breakdown of notable comic character/concepts that begin to enter the PD starting with Superman and going for about 10 years. Relevant parts in bold.

2034 - Superman, Lois Lane, Krpyton, The Addams family

2035 - Batman, Jim Gordon, Namor, the original Human Torch, Metropolis, Batmobile, The Kents, Jor and Lara-El, Ultra-Humanite

2036 - Captain America, Robin (Dick Grayson), Bucky Barnes, Jimmy Olsen (radio show), Perry White (radio show), The Spirit, Joker, Lex Luthor, Captain Marvel, Catwoman (as "the Cat"), Green Lantern (Alan Scott), Flash (Jay Garrick), Doctor Fate, Hugo Strange, Hawkman and Hawkgirl, Justice Society, Gotham, Daily Planet

2037 - Wonder Woman, Steve Trevor, Aquaman, Archie Andrews, Jughead, Betty Cooper, Green Arrow, Penguin

2038 - Mary Marvel, Captain Marvel Jr, Two-Face

2039 - Alfred, Kryptonite, Batcave

2040 - Mister Mxyzptlk

2041 - Superboy, Black Adam

2043 - Scrooge McDuck, Black Canary

2044 - Riddler

[Thor-Ul]

Thought I'd post this here but I did a breakdown of notable comic character/concepts that begin to enter the PD starting with Superman and going for about 10 years. Relevant parts in bold.

2034 - Superman, Lois Lane, Krpyton, The Addams family

2035 - Batman, Jim Gordon, Namor, the original Human Torch, Metropolis, Batmobile, The Kents, Jor and Lara-El, Ultra-Humanite

2036 - Captain America, Robin (Dick Grayson), Bucky Barnes, Jimmy Olsen (radio show), Perry White (radio show), The Spirit, Joker, Lex Luthor, Captain Marvel, Catwoman (as "the Cat"), Green Lantern (Alan Scott), Flash (Jay Garrick), Doctor Fate, Hugo Strange, Hawkman and Hawkgirl, Justice Society, Gotham, Daily Planet

2037 - Wonder Woman, Steve Trevor, Aquaman, Archie Andrews, Jughead, Betty Cooper, Green Arrow, Penguin

2038 - Mary Marvel, Captain Marvel Jr, Two-Face

2039 - Alfred, Kryptonite, Batcave

2040 - Mister Mxyzptlk

2041 - Superboy, Black Adam

2043 - Scrooge McDuck, Black Canary

2044 - Riddler

From what I learned recently copyrights become public, but trademarks are forever... as the company still renovates it.

[DABellWrites]

Thought I'd post this here but I did a breakdown of notable comic character/concepts that begin to enter the PD starting with Superman and going for about 10 years. Relevant parts in bold.

2034 - Superman, Lois Lane, Krpyton, The Addams family

2035 - Batman, Jim Gordon, Namor, the original Human Torch, Metropolis, Batmobile, The Kents, Jor and Lara-El, Ultra-Humanite

2036 - Captain America, Robin (Dick Grayson), Bucky Barnes, Jimmy Olsen (radio show), Perry White (radio show), The Spirit, Joker, Lex Luthor, Captain Marvel, Catwoman (as "the Cat"), Green Lantern (Alan Scott), Flash (Jay Garrick), Doctor Fate, Hugo Strange, Hawkman and Hawkgirl, Justice Society, Gotham, Daily Planet

2037 - Wonder Woman, Steve Trevor, Aquaman, Archie Andrews, Jughead, Betty Cooper, Green Arrow, Penguin

2038 - Mary Marvel, Captain Marvel Jr, Two-Face

2039 - Alfred, Kryptonite, Batcave

2040 - Mister Mxyzptlk

2041 - Superboy, Black Adam

2043 - Scrooge McDuck, Black Canary

2044 - Riddler

You forgot Looney Tunes. Porky Pig debuted in 1935, Bugs Bunny followed in 1938. While LT don't mean much anymore, I'm starting to see a resurgence in LT merch on clothes.

[Gaius]

You forgot Looney Tunes. Porky Pig debuted in 1935, Bugs Bunny followed in 1938. While LT don't mean much anymore, I'm starting to see a resurgence in LT merch on clothes.

I didn't forget, I was concerned with characters who either debuted as comic or newstrip characters or are mainly comic characters.

[thwhtGuardian]

I don’t buy the argument. Sounds like ‘DC doesn’t want the competition’ to me. Less money for everyone is really just less potential money for them. WB just don’t want to run the off risk that another version might, against the odds, cut into their profits.

Who knows what the law will say in ten years but odds are DC will still hold all the advantage, just as Disney does now with Steamboat Willie. I suspect that in a decade if you have a Superman story to tell and you take it to a major entertainment company you’ll find gentlemen’s agreements with WB baring your way. Sony won’t make your film, Netflix won’t stream your show, Tor won’t publish your novel, because they all get generous deals with WB if they only support the ‘real’ versions. You’ll be forced to self fund, so you’ll turn to social media and kickstarters, only to find your videos buried at the bottom of people’s feeds, or locked down by an ‘accidental’ copyright flag they never quite get around to removing. If you persist the lawyers will come with bribes and intimidation. If that doesn’t work, lawsuits. They’ll request, quite reasonably, that you hold off on your project until the judge makes a ruling. Then they’ll delay, and appeal, and delay and appeal. They’re on retainer and get paid regardless but every day you spend in court is a day not working on your project, every dollar spent in legal fees is a dollar taken from your story. You’ll go broke before they do, your project will die, and it doesn’t even matter if they don’t have a winning case. This sounds cynical but it’s what’s happened with Winnie the Poo and Steamboat Willie. Just a few examples of each that I’ve heard of, not a ton of people have tried to take advantage of these guys being public yet.

And when you do force a project through, you’ll still be competing against the version with all the history, characters, and trappings that people associate with the ‘classic and true’ Superman, with all the corporate muscle of Warners behind it.

Which isn’t to say we won’t get some great domain stuff. We will. And again, we’re talking a decade from now and a lot of new precedent is gonna be set by then. But we’re not going to be buried under so much content the entire character dies from over exposure.

Eh, you don't need back room conspiracies to explain anything. The truth of the matter is that you're not going to see Disney or Sony doing Superman movies or shows not because of any "gentlemanly" back room deals but rather because the juice isn't worth the squeeze. It's all about incentives and it just isn't there for big studios.

The draw of using a public domain character like Superman is that the name itself has value so it means you're going to get more attention for your project if it's about Superman instead of Alienguy. The thing is though, big studios like Disney or Sony already have that kind of cultural cache to their names with people checking out their films and getting interested in them just because it's a new film by Disney, and they have the money to widely promote their projects so they don't need a stunt to draw eyes to them so it really only behooves studious like Altitude(the guys who did the Winnie the Pooh horror film) to take on public domain characters.

Could there be a legitimately talented creator who has always wanted to do their own take on Superman but was previously unable to?

Sure, but it's also just as likely that said creator if they were actually talented would rather take that idea and turn it into their own original creation like George Lucas did with Star Wars when his pitch for Flash Gordon was rejected. So it's not likely you're going to see a big name talent take a stab at it either.

So in the end, WB/DC doesn't need any shady conspiracies to keep them being the company that makes the most money off Superman, but rather it's just something that will naturally occur on its own simply because WB/DC has been the company most people associate Superman with and that's why there weren't any big pushes to force for longer extensions on rights this time around.

[thwhtGuardian]

I think a more important question than who's putting out a public domain Superman story is what would they call it?

I'm betting WB/DC own copywrites on titles like Superman, Man of Steel or Adventures of Superman so those would be out. Kal L: Last Son of Krypton?

[Jeffrey2]

AI is going to transform everything in the coming decade. By the time Superman goes into the public domain small scale operators will be able to make good knock off Superman films. For their own entertainment or to make money. No one can predict how this will impact WBD for better or worse but the corporation has been preparing for al options. Tom Welling as Superman - AI generated.

Screenshot_11-2-2024_9556_www.instagram.com.jpg

[thwhtGuardian]

AI is going to transform everything in the coming decade. By the time Superman goes into the public domain small scale operators will be able to make good knock off Superman films. For their own entertainment or to make money. No one can predict how this will impact WBD for better or worse but the corporation has been preparing for al options. Tom Welling as Superman - AI generated.

Screenshot_11-2-2024_9556_www.instagram.com.jpg

People may be able to make some AI Superman creations but I still don't see them getting mass distribution.

[DABellWrites]

I didn't forget, I was concerned with characters who either debuted as comic or newstrip characters or are mainly comic characters.

Ah, I see.

[DABellWrites]

People may be able to make some AI Superman creations but I still don't see them getting mass distribution.

Currently, AI cannot be copyrighted, so there's no real incentive to do a Superman AI movie.

[Vordan]

I think a more important question than who's putting out a public domain Superman story is what would they call it?

I'm betting WB/DC own copywrites on titles like Superman, Man of Steel or Adventures of Superman so those would be out. Kal L: Last Son of Krypton?

They’ve also trademarked all the “monikers” as far as I know.

[Jeffrey2]

Currently, AI cannot be copyrighted, so there's no real incentive to do a Superman AI movie.

This is true but that may change as AI spreads and is used by artists to supplement their creations. Technology is leaping ahead of the law. The incentive for some like me will be to bring to life Superman stories they've written or thought of and share them with friends. But the potential financial windfall is there and how it plays out is TBD. The guys over at Superboy Legacy do a season 5 where they create new eps and narrate them while showing photos of the story. Pretty primitive but with AI imagine what they will be able to do. I've written several stories based on the Superboy series and posted them at fanfiction with my dream being to bring them to life and with AI that may be possible.

[DABellWrites]

They’ve also trademarked all the “monikers” as far as I know.

DC/WB has all the major Superman stuff trademarked. So, the idea of a Superman movie once he enters the public domain is next to impossible.

This is true but that may change as AI spreads and is used by artists to supplement their creations. Technology is leaping ahead of the law. The incentive for some like me will be to bring to life Superman stories they've written or thought of and share them with friends. But the potential financial windfall is there and how it plays out is TBD. The guys over at Superboy Legacy do a season 5 where they create new eps and narrate them while showing photos of the story. Pretty primitive but with AI imagine what they will be able to do. I've written several stories based on the Superboy series and posted them at fanfiction with my dream being to bring them to life and with AI that may be possible.

We'll see as AI becomes more integral into the creative process. I know the Copyright Office was at one point doing a survey about AI.