New WW Creative Team: Tom King and Daniel Sampere

[SiegePerilous02]

And Cheetah had WW84.

Don't dislike Barbara at all and don't disagree Circe has her fair share of lame moments but find it silly when the only way some try to build up Cheetah is by tearing down others.

Tbf, Cheetah also gets **** on by proponents of Circe and Ares. Or whoever the new temporary flavor of the month tends to be.

[Gaius]

Tbf, Cheetah also gets **** on by proponents of Circe and Ares. Or whoever the new temporary flavor of the month tends to be.

Natural enemies.

[Frontier]

I'd love to see them team-up provided Circe finally got a redesign .

[Vordan]

That is cold Likelihood of TK actually doing something like this?

Like someone else said, King likes Cheetah as a “frenemy” and the odds of him and Sampere murdering the lovable sickly child who adores WW are slim to none. But if I was going to play my hand at elevating one Wonder Rogue above the rest, that’s what I would.

Hmmmm I don’t think you have to get rid of the sympathetic element. Callisto was Xenia’s arch enemy for almost the entire series and she had sympathetic motives while simultaneously being bat-sh*t crazy, dangerous and an awful person. And every bad thing she did she was able to justify to herself by spouting “Xena killed my family”, which in her eyes totally absolved her of her terrible acts.

So I don’t really agree that an arc nemesis can’t be sympathetic.

Lex goes back and forth on being sympathetic and for the most part it works. Perhaps you’re right, but with Lex they’re also not shy about portraying him as an evil bastard in a way they haven’t really done with Cheetah yet. Lex is ultimately so selfish that he’s willing to murder innocents to get what he wants, and I think establishing that Cheetah has that trait in common would do wonders to sell her as the arch.

Oh, wow. You don't mess around, lol.

Hmm, I'd be pretty surprised. I think King's said that's not what he's going for in more of his current stories.

I said it was edgy! But it’s not really even that edgy compared to what Lex and Joker routinely do.

I’ll always remember reading Azz/Bermejo Luthor for the first time in which Lex builds a synthetic superhuman to be a hero, establishes a sexual relationship with her, and then at the end he callously murders her and multiple civilians merely to make Superman look bad. That was the story that made me *get* why Lex was the arch: because he’s utterly selfish and hate filled towards Superman, to the point that nothing and nobody else has value to him except with regards to how he can use them in his war. Reading 52, I had the same experience when Lex turns off the powers of the Everyman after being told he can’t get powers himself. Dozens of people die because Lex has a temper tantrum over not getting what he wants, and also he hopes it will make Superman look bad for not saving everyone.

I’m still waiting for that kind of Cheetah story. The one that knocks you off your feet with how evil Cheetah is, how willing she is to cross the line to get what she wants.

Tbf, Cheetah also gets **** on by proponents of Circe and Ares. Or whoever the new temporary flavor of the month tends to be.

Heh, guilty. It’s not that I can’t see why Cheetah is deserving of the arch status, but it seems like it’s based more on her real life publication history than on her stories. Ultra-Humanite was the first supervillain and was intended by Siegel to be Superman’s archnemesis. But Lex took the role because he was simply more interesting and cooler. Joker was intended as a one off villain who died at the end of his first appearance - instead he stuck around because editorial realized they had something there. I need a story for Cheetah that sells me on her, in any medium.

Even if Cheetah does win me over, I’ll always love Circe the most simply because I love the undercurrent of Wonder Woman as a Paladin vs. Circe the Evil Sorceress. It appeals to the fantasy fan in me.

[SiegePerilous02]

Heh, guilty. It’s not that I can’t see why Cheetah is deserving of the arch status, but it seems like it’s based more on her real life publication history than on her stories. Ultra-Humanite was the first supervillain and was intended by Siegel to be Superman’s archnemesis. But Lex took the role because he was simply more interesting and cooler. Joker was intended as a one off villain who died at the end of his first appearance - instead he stuck around because editorial realized they had something there. I need a story for Cheetah that sells me on her, in any medium.

Lol trust me, you're not the worst offender.

I actually think Cheetah already has a similar history as Lex publication and media wise. Marston intended Paula von Gunther to be the recurring arch nemesis, and then reformed her. He appears to have created Cheetah to fill the void, because she has the distinction of being the only Golden Age villain who became a villain out of hatred for Diana specifically. In addition to him bringing her back and using her in the newspaper strip, everyone else on his team (Hummel, Kanigher and even Peter) used her at least once in a story. She would have been left in the vault if not for Superfriends, but Lex also owes some early other media forays for why he overtook Humanite as the arch.

Of course, all of this is Priscilla, but DC has decided to stick with Barbara. But as far as a petty female arch nemesis is concerned, Priscilla walked so Barbara, Circe and pre-Rebirth Veronica could run. Jimenez came the closest to selling Circe as the #1 arch enemy, because he sold the hatred between her and Diana in a well plotted story. Otherwise, Circe's motivations are pretty all over the place, same as Barbara's. Since Perez's Minerva lost reason for doing much of anything related to Diana and only Rucka and Orlando could do Rebirth Barbara right, it might be time to retire Barbara and bring back the original. Unlike Circe, they nailed a classic and easy to understand motivation for her right from jump. I think her envy motivation even predates Lex.

Even if Cheetah does win me over, I’ll always love Circe the most simply because I love the undercurrent of Wonder Woman as a Paladin vs. Circe the Evil Sorceress. It appeals to the fantasy fan in me.

I do love that stuff too, which is why Circe is my #2 WW villain

[I'm a Fish]

Circe having more consistently good stories than Cheetah is the better reason.

Circe not being dragged into Catwoman books and movies is the best reason.

[Dr. Poison]

Cheetah has also been defeated in one punch by Batman. And in DCAU, she was just a lackey who was there to be seduced by Batman.

Writers generally don't treat WW villains with any respect.

I'm aware. That's why I said "just about every Wonder Woman adversary has a bunch of bad moments in their history." Lazy and/or uneducated creators tend to treat the Wonder-rogues like they're jokes regardless of which villain it is.

[MarquisAsh]

Let’s remember Circe did have a great showing in the Justice league action series.

[Agent Z]

Cheetah in general only seems to be considered Wonder Woman's archenemy because they are the Wonder Woman villain with the most exposure in comics and related media. Other than that, there is nothing that really makes her deserving of that status. She has no major stories that make her rivalry with Wonder Woman as compelling as Cale under Rucka or Circe under Perez and later Jiminez (I'd even say Messner-Loebs had an interesting take on Circe, in concept if not execution). Even leaving out their respective capabilities, Circe simply has more going for her as a dark mirror for Diana.

"We were both born by whom of god. I am your reflection in a warped mirror. This world is not big enough for the two of us" (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #19)

[Koriand'r]

I don't see Circe as "a dark mirror to Diana", that would be Devastation or Grail. Circe is more the dark mirror of Endora on Bewitched.

Historically she's been more colorful than Cheetah and that combined with her better stories is what makes her more popular.

[Fuzzy Mittens]

I wouldn't say Cheetah is bad, but I wouldn't really say shes biggest Wonder Woman villain material either.
I mean the Priscilla Rich Cheetah of the 40s was hot stuff as an evil mastermind with a gimmick but Deborah Domaine? Barbara Minerva? Sebastian Ballasteros? They usually answer to other villains. This is hardly a bad thing. Having villains who can be inserted into other villains schemes makes for some great story potential.

But well just to use Post Crisis as an example and focusing on Barbara Minerva for a moment we had her major story appearances be....
1. Pops up in the Perez era to try killing Wonder Woman and stealing the lasso in the hopes it would save her life.
2. Forced to become a minion for Circe during her epic villian scheme. Would betray Circe to help Wonder Woman.
3. Captured by demons and rescued by Wonder Woman before choosing to leap into hell to battle more demons.
4. Pops up to help Wonder Woman fight the White Magician before being turned into a demon minion by said White Magician
5. Gets her soul taken by Necron and becomes a savage monster of pure evil
6. Becoming a minion for Circe during that period wherin Circe becomes Wonder Woman
7. Going on a killing spree during Ruckas run to try killing an imprisoned Wonder Woman
8. Gaining control of the Secret Society of Supervillains and being mind controlled by Ares to create Genocide

To be fair in new 52 and Rebirth shes had more stuff. Fought the Justice League, became Veronica Cales minion, was given a god killing weapon by Lex Luthor, allied against Wonder Woman to fight the gods.....

But overall most of Cheetahs stories are those of following someone elses lead, helping Wonder Woman, or being manipulated by someone else.
And when she IS acting on her own as an antagonist it pretty much boils down to trying to eat Wonder Womans face or kill people on the way towards trying to kill Wonder Woman.
She makes for a wonderful physical threat. But threat to the entire world she aint.

[HsssH]

To some extent it probably goes back to public domain thing. Ares and Circe have more interesting, successful and well regarded WW/DC stories than Cheetah, but we try again and again to position Cheetah as the main bad or main rival or whatever else because she is WW original.

[SiegePerilous02]

I wouldn't say Cheetah is bad, but I wouldn't really say shes biggest Wonder Woman villain material either.
I mean the Priscilla Rich Cheetah of the 40s was hot stuff as an evil mastermind with a gimmick but Deborah Domaine? Barbara Minerva? Sebastian Ballasteros? They usually answer to other villains. This is hardly a bad thing. Having villains who can be inserted into other villains schemes makes for some great story potential.

But well just to use Post Crisis as an example and focusing on Barbara Minerva for a moment we had her major story appearances be....
1. Pops up in the Perez era to try killing Wonder Woman and stealing the lasso in the hopes it would save her life.
2. Forced to become a minion for Circe during her epic villian scheme. Would betray Circe to help Wonder Woman.
3. Captured by demons and rescued by Wonder Woman before choosing to leap into hell to battle more demons.
4. Pops up to help Wonder Woman fight the White Magician before being turned into a demon minion by said White Magician
5. Gets her soul taken by Necron and becomes a savage monster of pure evil
6. Becoming a minion for Circe during that period wherin Circe becomes Wonder Woman
7. Going on a killing spree during Ruckas run to try killing an imprisoned Wonder Woman
8. Gaining control of the Secret Society of Supervillains and being mind controlled by Ares to create Genocide

To be fair in new 52 and Rebirth shes had more stuff. Fought the Justice League, became Veronica Cales minion, was given a god killing weapon by Lex Luthor, allied against Wonder Woman to fight the gods.....

But overall most of Cheetahs stories are those of following someone elses lead, helping Wonder Woman, or being manipulated by someone else.
And when she IS acting on her own as an antagonist it pretty much boils down to trying to eat Wonder Womans face or kill people on the way towards trying to kill Wonder Woman.
She makes for a wonderful physical threat. But threat to the entire world she aint.

These are all pretty compelling reasons to bring Priscilla back.

She's nobodies minion.

[Psy-lock]

Priscilla might be back soon...in the public domain.

[The I.A.D.C.]

I'm happy to see that I'm not the only person who has been thinking about retiring Barbara and bringing Priscilla back. I recently re-read the "Justice" book by Alex Ross and was reminded how much I loved his take on the character. I get so tired of writers coming on the book and saying they are going to give Diana her equivalent of Lex Luthor. She already has one. It's Priscilla Rich. Unfortunately, Perez chose not to use her and created a new character to be "The Cheetah". Then Rucka created Veronica Cale, a blonde mogul whose motivations for hating Diana were very similar to Priscilla's. Combine them. Make Priscilla the billionaire business woman, dressing in leopard/cheetah prints, using her wealth and influence to undermine Diana's mission. And like Lex uses his power suits when he wants to fight Superman physically, Priscilla can become The Cheetah when she has to do the same with Diana. And there should be no point in her history where she was ever friends with Diana. One day WW shows up in our world and Priscilla hates her.

One of the reasons Lex and Joker have the status they do is their longevity with the character. Both of them were there from the '40s as was Priscilla. The fact the she hasn't been used in decades makes her ripe for a huge comeback. She could have the money and influence almost equal to Lex but then she's also bat-crap crazy like The Joker. That makes her a huge WW-level threat. Even the other villains are kinda scared of her, but Lex thinks he can control and manipulate her and Joker is intrigued by her level of insanity. I think in order to make Priscilla work in today's DCU, you'd have to get rid of Barbara Minerva and Veronica Cale and I don't think DC would do that... at least not until the next Crisis/reboot!