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  1. #1936
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    Quote Originally Posted by PopQuezy View Post
    I really like Grail, and I think including her in the Children of the Gods arc made sense. Unfortunately, I think Robinson didn't know how to do anything interesting with Grail or the connection that she herself is a child of a (new) God that could have given her an even stronger link to Diana.



    I agree. I didn't need another year-long arc connecting Vanessa to Diana. We just had that with Barbara. I liked turning Silver Swan into a Cyborg (Justice League character) like threat, and I liked having her target the people saved by Wonder Woman. I thought it gave her an interesting motive, and I hope King uses her as a villain.
    She's no longer a villain. Vita Ayala had her reformed. The only people that seem to like Vanessa as Silver Swan are those who never liked her to begin with. It's just more of DC pissing on Perez's contributions to Wonder Woman.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 12-02-2023 at 11:16 PM.

  2. #1937
    Spectacular Member Angleman70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    She's no longer a villain. Vita Ayala had her reformed. The only people that seem to like Vanessa as Silver Swan are those who never liked her to begin with. It's just more of DC pissing on Perez's contributions to Wonder Woman.
    Thank you for saying that! I am so sick and tired of a lot of negative posts ‘pissing’ on Pérez! It doesn’t matter what particular topic that is brought up but it all boils down to is this passive aggressive hate for what GP has done for this character. The brutal way some on the WW forum have expressed and dissected the details of his run is damning! If it wasn’t for George we wouldn’t have this conversation because he put so much effort on defining and defending Diana as a character with the love and determination to make her relevant after the first Crisis. So again, thanks for saying that.

  3. #1938
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angleman70 View Post
    Thank you for saying that! I am so sick and tired of a lot of negative posts ‘pissing’ on Pérez! It doesn’t matter what particular topic that is brought up but it all boils down to is this passive aggressive hate for what GP has done for this character. The brutal way some on the WW forum have expressed and dissected the details of his run is damning! If it wasn’t for George we wouldn’t have this conversation because he put so much effort on defining and defending Diana as a character with the love and determination to make her relevant after the first Crisis. So again, thanks for saying that.
    I haven't seen much hate towards the Perez run here. At least, not since the earlier years of the New 52. My complaint was more towards DC's practices regarding that run.

  4. #1939
    Mighty Member Fuzzy Mittens's Avatar
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    Regarding Silver Swan, I certainly agree that Vanessa was the least interesting of those.
    I confess im also....Really baffled by people applauding Robinsons Silver Swan as being good?
    Like the one positive one can say about Vanessa becoming Silver Swan in post crisis is that given her history, it created a tragedy that two characters who were practically sisters were now mortal enemies. Someone who had an ongoing years long thread of being harassed and manipulated by Doctor Psycho who was freely rewriting her thoughts.

    Robinsons take? "Herp a derp! This random girl who got injured during a super fight is angry at Wonder Woman who she had never met before her injury all because Diana only visits her once every couple of months despite being barely aquaintances! So nanomachines son! Shes gonna be EVULZ because EVULZ!"
    No history with Wonder Woman. Nothing impressive about her motivations. Were straight up told that her powers are just a copy of Cyborgs meaning shes not even the first WW villain with that sort of origin. (Cyborgirl)

    Vanessa was already the least interesting of the Silver Swan iterations for how she only worked as a manipulated puppet without any free will. The addition just makes her into a bland Cheetah knockoff.


    ---

    As for Grail, I will give the character some credit and say Geoff Johns for his faults as a writer genuinly set up some interesting plot hooks with the character in his Justice League run. We have a girl who was raised to hate Darkseid and desire nothing less than his destruction. A woman who has been around for three thousand years and raised by Marina Black who was a griffin riding Amazon that we are informed has been operating in the shadows hunting down evil and raising her daughter to do the same. A woman taught to embrace villainy if it meant bringing an end to even greater evils.
    She was the daughter of Darkseid and was trained to believe she was better than that and nurture over nature meant she was not her father.
    She winds up taking a babyfied Darkseid....And not killing him because she believes she can somehow do for Darkseid what was done for herself. Raise him to not be the absolute worst.
    This sets up some interesting potential! It gives the villain some possible layers that could be explored. Makes her more than just a one note villain but someone with a complicated moral code.

    .....Then Robinson took the character, made her another blind follower of Darkseid whose killing people for baby food to restore him to full power, and by the end of things shes just another mindless minion who shows up in background scenes of meandering Apokolips mooks alongside Kalibak. Last I heard shes a minion of Orion whose the current ruler of Apokolips.

  5. #1940
    Astonishing Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    The only thing I like about Robinson's Silver Swan is her design. But the actual story is a desecration of Vanessa and Julia and should be ignored forever (along with the rest of the run).

  6. #1941
    Astonishing Member Mantis-Ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Please, people would have been apathetic at best. Robinson's handling of that arc wouldn't be better received if it was someone else. At least Rucka put actual effort into showing Diana and Barbara's friendship developing and falling apart across several issues, instead of one. If that's Robinson's best, the guy clearly peaked at Starman.
    Having recently read Starman, that is such a funny and interesting thing to say.

    Cause with Starman you can clearly feel the love he has for the character and general Starman line. This is the same guy who took the various disparate Starman characters (Mikaal Thomas, Prince Gavyn, Will Payton, the unnamed Starman II) and managed to connect them all in a true single legacy line along with the history of the JSA related characters.

    You can tell the love he has for those characters since he has great knowledge of their history. Which from the looks of it the same can't be said for his Wonder Woman run......

  7. #1942
    Astonishing Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Mittens View Post
    Regarding Silver Swan, I certainly agree that Vanessa was the least interesting of those.
    I confess im also....Really baffled by people applauding Robinsons Silver Swan as being good?
    Like the one positive one can say about Vanessa becoming Silver Swan in post crisis is that given her history, it created a tragedy that two characters who were practically sisters were now mortal enemies. Someone who had an ongoing years long thread of being harassed and manipulated by Doctor Psycho who was freely rewriting her thoughts.

    Robinsons take? "Herp a derp! This random girl who got injured during a super fight is angry at Wonder Woman who she had never met before her injury all because Diana only visits her once every couple of months despite being barely aquaintances! So nanomachines son! Shes gonna be EVULZ because EVULZ!"
    No history with Wonder Woman. Nothing impressive about her motivations. Were straight up told that her powers are just a copy of Cyborgs meaning shes not even the first WW villain with that sort of origin. (Cyborgirl)

    Vanessa was already the least interesting of the Silver Swan iterations for how she only worked as a manipulated puppet without any free will. The addition just makes her into a bland Cheetah knockoff.
    What you all aren't picking up on is that they're SUPPOSED to be acquaintances, not sisters, or long time friends.

    It happens in the real world, you're nice to someone, they're grateful, they become enamored with you because of that and start to think there's more to the relationship than there really is. They're then needy and cling to you, as if you really were life long friends, when your only endeavor was to be nice. That's a sticky situation, ripe for confrontation and uncomfortable conversation.

    Besides being paralyzed by Major Disaster this Vanessa also apparently had brain damage, because Robinson makes a point of telling us her head was hit hard in the initial attack. Dr. Psycho saw the hero worship happening between a victim and her rescuer and utilized it to his own ends. He started by introducing nano technology to "heal" Vanessa, while simultaneously destroying her mind. He then murdered her mother in a "freak accident" so she'd be entirely alone. As her "doctor" he probably kept the death from Wonder Woman who was busy dealing with Jason, while he continued warping Vanessa's mind until she lost herself and only the Silver Swan remained. This was a girl who was a ballerina, a singer and an artist and he turned her into a monster that literally kills babies and massacres a whole hospital floor, including helpless patients. She then removed all records of her miraculous recovery process, so no other paraplegics could use it to walk again.

    I just re-read the arc and it really is good. It touches on friendship, grief, abandonment, anger, recklessness (there's a meta scene of Silver Swan slitting Jason's throat and throwing him in the garbage) and loss. Robinson tied in elements of other Silver Swans for his revamp and wrote a genuinely moving story.

    I'm sorry it goes underappreciated, but it still resonates emotionally with me.
    Last edited by Koriand'r; 12-03-2023 at 09:30 AM. Reason: typos...I just woke up

  8. #1943
    Astonishing Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    What you all aren't picking up on is that they're SUPPOSED to be acquaintances, not sisters, or long time friends.

    It happens in the real world, you're nice to someone, they're grateful, they become enamored with you because of that and start to think there's more to the relationship than there really is. They're then needy and cling to you, as if you really were life long friends, when your only endeavor was to be nice. That's a sticky situation, ripe for confrontation and uncomfortable conversation.

    Besides being paralyzed by Major Disaster this Vanessa also apparently had brain damage, because Robinson makes a point of telling us her head was hit hard in the initial attack. Dr. Psycho saw the hero worship happening between a victim and her rescuer and utilized it to his own ends. He started by introducing nano technology to "heal" Vanessa, while simultaneously destroying her mind. He then murdered her mother in a "freak accident" so she'd be entirely alone. As her "doctor" he probably kept the death from Wonder Woman who was busy dealing with Jason, while he continued warping Vanessa's mind until she lost herself and only the Silver Swan remained. This was a girl who was a ballerina, a singer and an artist and he turned her into a monster that literally kills babies and massacres a whole hospital floor, including helpless patients. She then removed all records of her miraculous recovery process, so no other paraplegics could use it to walk again.

    I just re-read the arc and it really is good. It touches on friendship, grief, abandonment, anger, recklessness (there's a meta scene of Silver Swan slitting Jason's throat and throwing him in the garbage) and loss. Robinson tied in elements of other Silver Swans for his revamp and wrote a genuinely moving story.

    I'm sorry it goes underappreciated, but it's still resonates emotionally with me.
    All that is fine. For an original character. There was no need to bring back the Kapatelis family just to kill off Julia and downgrade Vanessa from Diana's little sister to an acquaintance. Jason's presence also doesn't help the story, though at least he's not entirely Robinson's fault.

  9. #1944
    Astonishing Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psy-lock View Post
    All that is fine. For an original character. There was no need to bring back the Kapatelis family just to kill off Julia and downgrade Vanessa from Diana's little sister to an acquaintance. Jason's presence also doesn't help the story, though at least he's not entirely Robinson's fault.
    That's why I said he should have used a different name, calling her Vanessa Kapatelis caused too many unnecessary expectations, and her mother wasn't Julia so she's not the same character she was Post-Crisis.

  10. #1945
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    I just re-read the arc and it really is good. It touches on friendship, grief, abandonment, anger, recklessness (there's a meta scene of Silver Swan slitting Jason's throat and throwing him in the garbage) and loss. Robinson tied in elements of other Silver Swans for his revamp and wrote a genuinely moving story.

    I'm sorry it goes underappreciated, but it still resonates emotionally with me.
    I agree with everything you wrote. However, I think it's appreciated by DC as Robinson's Silver Swan has shown up in Wonder Woman Evolution, Sensational Wonder Woman, and her design was used for Wonder Woman Bloodlines. This is obviously Robinson's most successful Wonder Woman story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psy-lock View Post
    All that is fine. For an original character. There was no need to bring back the Kapatelis family just to kill off Julia and downgrade Vanessa from Diana's little sister to an acquaintance. Jason's presence also doesn't help the story, though at least he's not entirely Robinson's fault.
    Why does it need to be a new character? This is a new continuity, and Robinson is paying homage to Perez while remixing his work for a modern audience. Vanessa is obviously the Silver Swan character that DC is investing in.

    As for Vita reforming Vanessa, it's been a while since I read that story, but there's no reason to think it'll stick. Silver Swan is a great villain, and she needs to continue to be a thorn at Diana's side.

  11. #1946
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PopQuezy View Post
    Why does it need to be a new character? This is a new continuity, and Robinson is paying homage to Perez while remixing his work for a modern audience. Vanessa is obviously the Silver Swan character that DC is investing in.
    It being a new continuity is irrelevant. That doesn't inherently make the story good or bad by itself. Rucka was able to pay homage to Perez in Rebirth while remixing things for a modern way, that ended up with some improvements (or at least ideas that were comparably good in their own way). He kept Hippolyta, Steve and Etta as the important figures in her life and elevated Barbara Minerva to cement her as a key figure. Meanwhile, Robinson took two major characters from that era and made them into strangers for Diana (and killed one of them off).

    Quote Originally Posted by PopQuezy View Post
    As for Vita reforming Vanessa, it's been a while since I read that story, but there's no reason to think it'll stick. Silver Swan is a great villain, and she needs to continue to be a thorn at Diana's side.
    Vanessa has a limited shelf life as the Swan. If Diana can't permanently save this traumatized teenage girl, she's an ineffectual superhero. She's already failing to save the Cheetah, so giving her two such cases makes her look bad at her job. Vanessa as the Swan really only worked under the specific circumstances Jimenez and Rucka wrote it under. Outside of that context, if DC wants a permanent Swan as a villain, Alexandros is the better option. Yeah DC is invested in Vanessa, but it wouldn't be the first time DC was invested in bad ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    That's why I said he should have used a different name, calling her Vanessa Kapatelis caused too many unnecessary expectations, and her mother wasn't Julia so she's not the same character she was Post-Crisis.
    Did her mother get a name other than Julia? If not, it's just Julia getting killed off.

    The black hair doesn't change that. Barbara is blonde, Etta is black and Steve is young and hot again. All of them are visually different from their Perez counterparts (so is Vanessa), and they all kept their names.

  12. #1947
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    Quote Originally Posted by PopQuezy View Post
    I agree with everything you wrote. However, I think it's appreciated by DC as Robinson's Silver Swan has shown up in Wonder Woman Evolution, Sensational Wonder Woman, and her design was used for Wonder Woman Bloodlines. This is obviously Robinson's most successful Wonder Woman story.
    Talk about damning with faint praise.

    Also, here's a list of things that have been featured in Wonder Woman comics and/or related media:

    * Sex pirates and "gendercidal" Amazons.

    * Diana being a kill-happy maniac.

    * Max Lord.

    * The entire "handsome man" plot beat from Wonder Woman 1984.

    * The first Amazons Attack.

    * Wonder Woman being turned into a pig for an entire episode while Batman and Zatanna fight Circe.

    * The Zeus origin.

    Something being used more than once doesn't make it a good idea. And Vanessa being Silver Swan was controversial enough the first time.

    Quote Originally Posted by PopQuezy View Post
    Why does it need to be a new character? This is a new continuity, and Robinson is paying homage to Perez while remixing his work for a modern audience. Vanessa is obviously the Silver Swan character that DC is investing in.

    Perez wasn't the one who made Vanessa the Silver Swan.
    Steve and Etta are written more or less in line with their original selves so why shouldn't we expect the same of Vanessa?
    Last edited by Agent Z; 12-03-2023 at 12:18 PM.

  13. #1948
    Astonishing Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The black hair doesn't change that. Barbara is blonde, Etta is black and Steve is young and hot again. All of them are visually different from their Perez counterparts (so is Vanessa), and they all kept their names.
    Despite that they have different personalities, motivations and backstories. They're slightly different characters with the same names. That's a feature of NEW continuities, and one shouldn't expect them to be exactly like the version that came before. That's why it doesn't make sense to get angry because they're not the same as before, they're NEW.

  14. #1949
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Everything is Canon now so the Post-Crisis background is probably back.

    At least if the writer wants it to be.

  15. #1950
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Talk about damning with faint praise.

    Also, here's a list of things that have been featured in Wonder Woman comics and/or related media:

    * Sex pirates and "gendercidal" Amazons.

    * Diana being a kill-happy maniac.

    * Max Lord.

    * The entire "handsome man" plot beat from Wonder Woman 1984.

    * The first Amazons Attack.

    * Wonder Woman being turned into a pig for an entire episode while Batman and Zatanna fight Circe.

    * The Zeus origin.

    Something being used more than once doesn't make it a good idea. And Vanessa being Silver Swan was controversial enough the first time.



    Steve and Etta are written more or less in line with their original selves so why shouldn't we expect the same of Vanessa?

    Wonder Woman has a more than 80-year history; of course, there will be missteps. However, some of the things you listed DC is moving away or moved away from. Sex pirates and kill-happy Diana are two such things. You can even look at how Wonder Woman Bloodlines moved away from Diana's original depiction in that animated universe and realigned her closer to the Wonder Woman live-action films. WB/DC is also moving away from WW1984; hence no Wonder Woman 3 with Patty Jenkins, so they are moving away from Handsome Man, too.

    I disagree that the Zeus origin harms the Wonder Woman mythos as a franchise. I also disagree that Max Lord harms the Wonder Woman franchise.

    As for Vanessa, it is a reimagining of the character that happens in all long-running comic book series. Etta is nothing like her Holiday Girls self, and no, I am not referring to race. I'm referring to her entire personality and how she is presented - again not race - in the comic book series now. She isn't solely comic relief, and she is given a lot more gravitas.

    Even Steven has shown a difference from his original self in Rucka's second run - where he is depicted in a way that is much more friendly to the gay gaze - and this current King run - where he seems to have a more nuanced and complicated relationship with the government.

    Diana has had several reimaginings of her character. Even King's Diana feels rather different from the Cloonrad Diana. More assured and a bit more confident and a little dismissive of others.

    Barbara has also had a reimagining that improves - I would argue - her 80's self.

    Vanessa is seeing the same reimagining. This is not an attack on Perez. It's simply updating her for the modern mythos. An update that is seemingly successful with DC as they continually use it.

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