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  1. #1951
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Despite that they have different personalities, motivations and backstories. They're slightly different characters with the same names. That's a feature of NEW continuities, and one shouldn't expect them to be exactly like the version that came before. That's why it doesn't make sense to get angry because they're not the same as before, they're NEW.
    People are fine with Steve, Etta and Barbara being new incarnations because the new ones are also good. Or at least, Etta is just sort of there in either incarnation, and nobody ever gave a **** about Perez's Steve to begin with, so there was nowhere to go but up with him.

    Julia and Vanessa were practically the co-leads in the Perez run. Nobody should expect or even want them to be exactly the same, but going from that to glorified extras that Diana barely knows is of course going to annoy people who are fans of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by PopQuezy View Post
    Vanessa is seeing the same reimagining. This is not an attack on Perez. It's simply updating her for the modern mythos. An update that is seemingly successful with DC as they continually use it.
    Is it that successful though? Yeah she's used a lot, but she's just become the default Silver Swan that cameos in generic gatherings of Wonder Woman villain. None of the stories she appeared in have blown anybody away, and Bloodlines didn't sell that well.

  2. #1952
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    What worked by the first time Vanessa became the swan was that it was built both the fact that Vanessa and Julia had been important supporting characters in Perez's run and Jimenez being "meta" in playing off that Vanessa felt "abandoned" by Diana because of the real-world writers giving Diana different supporting casts.

    Rebirth Vanessa and Julia have none of that actual history and if you're annoyed people make the comparisons, than that's kind of unavoidable if you're doing a remake of a specific storyline from WW's history but don't want to put in the actual work that made the first one memorable/good.

    Just look at the film Psycho and the shot-for-shot remake, yeah they're both technically the same film but one is quite obviously better.

  3. #1953
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    If they need Vanessa as Silver Swan, retool her into an antihero or hero.

  4. #1954
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Is it that successful though? Yeah she's used a lot, but she's just become the default Silver Swan that cameos in generic gatherings of Wonder Woman villain. None of the stories she appeared in have blown anybody away, and Bloodlines didn't sell that well.
    She was one of the main villains in Wonder Woman Evolution, and she was featured on several covers. In the Sensational Wonder Woman story, she received a good showing along with every other Wonder villain like Dr. Poison, Giganta, and Blue Snowman. That story seemed well-received here. I'm not certain about outside this forum.

    Last I checked, it was called Wonder Woman Bloodlines. You can't blame Bloodlines for not selling well on Silver Swan. I mean unless you also don't want Dr. Poison, Cheetah, Dr. Cyber, Giganta, Veronica Cale, and Julia to ever be present in Wonder Woman media again.

    Cheetah and Giganta more often than not are the generic Wonder baddies in DC content. What does that mean for them?

    If - I believe when- Silver Swan returns, I'm certain it will be the Robinson version that has the momentum at this time.

  5. #1955
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    Quote Originally Posted by PopQuezy View Post
    Last I checked, it was called Wonder Woman Bloodlines. You can't blame Bloodlines for not selling well on Silver Swan.
    You also can't use it as an example of Vanessa as Silver Swan being a viable direction if the first adaptation it was featured in sold poorly and had mixed reviews at best.


    I mean unless you also don't want Dr. Poison, Cheetah, Dr. Cyber, Giganta, Veronica Cale, and Julia to ever be present in Wonder Woman media again.
    This is a leap of logic worthy of the Hulk. How does not liking this movie mean we never want to see these characters in Wonder Woman media again?

  6. #1956
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    Quote Originally Posted by PopQuezy View Post
    Wonder Woman has a more than 80-year history; of course, there will be missteps.
    Yeah and Robinson's take on the Kapatelis story is one of them.

    I disagree that the Zeus origin harms the Wonder Woman mythos as a franchise. I also disagree that Max Lord harms the Wonder Woman franchise.
    They sure as hell aren't helping it. Especially Max given the reception to 1984 and the Wilson run.

    Etta is nothing like her Holiday Girls self, and no, I am not referring to race. I'm referring to her entire personality and how she is presented - again not race - in the comic book series now. She isn't solely comic relief, and she is given a lot more gravitas.
    Etta's personality may be different but her role and history with Diana is relatively the same. This is not remotely like what Robinson did with Vanessa.

    Even Steven has shown a difference from his original self in Rucka's second run - where he is depicted in a way that is much more friendly to the gay gaze - and this current King run - where he seems to have a more nuanced and complicated relationship with the government.
    Again, this is a false analogy. A more apt comparison would be if Diana met Steve after she left the island, they had a brief relationship that mostly occurred off screen and then he joined an anti-Wonder Woman group offscreen. Even King's run currently depicts him as clearly on Diana's side.

    Diana has had several reimaginings of her character. Even King's Diana feels rather different from the Cloonrad Diana. More assured and a bit more confident and a little dismissive of others.
    King is not the first person to write Diana as self-assured and as far as being dismissive of others, that's mostly in regards to her enemies.

    The biggest change King has made in regards to Diana's personality thus far is writing her as speaking in a way that it's obvious English isn't her first language.

    Barbara has also had a reimagining that improves - I would argue - her 80's self.
    I'd argue that Barbara's depiction in the 80s is more relevant now with discourse of the connection between archaeology and the shadows of colonialism. But that's another story.

    Vanessa is seeing the same reimagining. This is not an attack on Perez. It's simply updating her for the modern mythos. An update that is seemingly successful with DC as they continually use it.
    Again, she was reformed the last time we saw her. She wasn't even used that much as a villain before and most of the stories she was in got a mixed to negative reception. You've basically sited one story villain Vanessa was used that was well received and I highly doubt it wa because of her specifically. This is not what a successful revamp of a beloved character looks like.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 12-03-2023 at 03:56 PM.

  7. #1957
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PopQuezy View Post
    She was one of the main villains in Wonder Woman Evolution, and she was featured on several covers.
    That story seems to have come and went without any fanfare.

    Quote Originally Posted by PopQuezy View Post
    In the Sensational Wonder Woman story, she received a good showing along with every other Wonder villain like Dr. Poison, Giganta, and Blue Snowman. That story seemed well-received here. I'm not certain about outside this forum.
    It was also a generic appearance that could have been filled by any other villain, including the other Swans.

    Quote Originally Posted by PopQuezy View Post
    Last I checked, it was called Wonder Woman Bloodlines. You can't blame Bloodlines for not selling well on Silver Swan.
    We can't, but it's another unsuccessful/meh project that doesn't exactly prove the success of Robinson's Swan beyond the design being used. She even had more of a lengthy relationship with Diana, so she was more like Perez/Jimenez's Diana given Robinson's design. The film was also originally meant to be about Diana and Barbara, but they shifted the focus to Silver Swan because Cheetah was getting the focus in WW84. Narratively, I wouldn't say that creative choice did any of the three characters any favors

    Quote Originally Posted by PopQuezy View Post
    Cheetah and Giganta more often than not are the generic Wonder baddies in DC content. What does that mean for them?
    It says DC sucks at using them, but that doesn't have much to do with how Robinson's take on the Kapatelis women was received.

    Quote Originally Posted by PopQuezy View Post
    If - I believe when- Silver Swan returns, I'm certain it will be the Robinson version that has the momentum at this time.
    King might use the Swan, I believe he has expressed interest. In which case it will most likely be Vanessa. However, he also favors the Perez continuity and is a fan of the Jimenez run. So at most, Vanessa might have her Rebirth design, but I expect her story will lean more towards her pre-Flashpoint canon and Julia might still be alive.

  8. #1958
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Is it that successful though? Yeah she's used a lot, but she's just become the default Silver Swan that cameos in generic gatherings of Wonder Woman villain. None of the stories she appeared in have blown anybody away, and Bloodlines didn't sell that well
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    This is a leap of logic worthy of the Hulk. How does not liking this movie mean we never want to see these characters in Wonder Woman media again?
    And you are taking what I said and what I was responding to completely out of context...you do this several times. Siege was not discussing liking or disliking Wonder Woman Bloodlines. Siege seemed to be saying since Bloodlines and the other stories Silver Swan recently appeared in were not successful, then it is an argument that Vanessa Silver Swan is either not successful or not well received. If that is the argument, then other characters in Bloodlines can presumably be said to not be successful or well-received, too. Especially since my argument is about momentum. No one said anything about someone liking an individual project or not. I don't even like all those projects, but I was talking about the momentum Silver Swan had and Siege responded with the success of that momentum. Neither one of us seemed to be discussing our personal like or dislike for these projects.

    Additionally, as for Wonder Woman 1984, people seemed to dislike the Handsome Man subplot, narrative missteps, and lack of fulfilling action. Pedro Pascal as Maxwell Lord seemed to be mostly well-received. According to your argument, Cheetah/Barbara Minerva is an albatross to the Wonder Woman brand as she was much less well-received and Kristin Wiig received a Razzie Award for the performance/character. Since you're talking about like, I liked Kristin Wiig/Cheetah in the movie, but should she be removed from the Wonder Mythos because how she was received by the general public in the film? I'm certain we both would say no.
    Last edited by PopQuezy; 12-03-2023 at 04:35 PM.

  9. #1959
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PopQuezy View Post
    Additionally, as for Wonder Woman 1984, people seemed to dislike the Handsome Man subplot, narrative missteps, and lack of fulfilling action. Pedro Pascal as Maxwell Lord seemed to be mostly well-received. According to your argument, Cheetah/Barbara Minerva is an albatross to the Wonder Woman brand as she was much less well-received and Kristin Wiig received a Razzie Award for the performance/character. Since you're talking about like, I liked Kristin Wiig/Cheetah in the movie, but should she be removed from the Wonder Mythos because how she was received by the general public in the film? I'm certain we both would say no.
    Pedro Pascal was well received because he's Pedro Pascal and everyone likes him. It doesn't have anything to do with Max Lord, who doesn't even resemble the incarnation that's relevant to the WW comics anyway.

    And Wiig was received well by critics and fans for her performance, it was the writing and dodgy special effects that people disliked. At least according to the TV tropes page for the movie, the reaction to her Razzie nomination has been pretty incredulous.

  10. #1960
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Yeah, I don't like WW84's Cheetah but using the Razzies is meaningless given their track record of awards. They gave The Shining a Razzie.

  11. #1961
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Pedro Pascal was well received because he's Pedro Pascal and everyone likes him. It doesn't have anything to do with Max Lord, who doesn't even resemble the incarnation that's relevant to the WW comics anyway.

    And Wiig was received well by critics and fans for her performance, it was the writing and dodgy special effects that people disliked. At least according to the TV tropes page for the movie, the reaction to her Razzie nomination has been pretty incredulous.
    This seems like splitting hairs. Pedro Pascal as Maxwell Lord was well-received in the film. The Maxwell Lord character obviously had a lot to do with why Pedro Pascal as Maxwell Lord was well received. Apparently, he was more well-received than Kristin Wiig. Isn't she also an actress people love going back to Saturday Night Live and Bridesmaids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Yeah, I don't like WW84's Cheetah but using the Razzies is meaningless given their track record of awards. They gave The Shining a Razzie.
    I'm not a film historian but isn't The Shining one of those movies that received mixed to negative reception upon its initial release, and it became beloved sometime later? A quick Google search shows that the Razzies rescinded Shelley Duvall's nomination.

    Again, the arguments that others are using are of success and reception. Cheetah was seemingly not well-received in a movie that was not critically successful. Should she be abandoned? Of course not. I would say the same for Vanessa's Silver Swan - the original villain being discussed and not Maxwell Lord. She has momentum in comics and an adaptation where she is a main antagonist. That's more than we can say for 98% of Diana's villains.

  12. #1962
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PopQuezy View Post
    This seems like splitting hairs. Pedro Pascal as Maxwell Lord was well-received in the film. The Maxwell Lord character obviously had a lot to do with why Pedro Pascal as Maxwell Lord was well received. Apparently, he was more well-received than Kristin Wiig. Isn't she also an actress people love going back to Saturday Night Live and Bridesmaids?
    People love Kristin Wiig (and it seems that nobody aside from the Razzies disliked her in WW84, more what was done with her), but Pedro Pascal was riding the Mandalorian wave, and people were thirsty for him. People were more hyped for Cheetah as a character than Max Lord pre-release, Pascal drew hype as an actor from his other project. And it's not like it lead to any further momentum with Max in the comics or beyond so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by PopQuezy View Post
    Again, the arguments that others are using are of success and reception. Cheetah was seemingly not well-received in a movie that was not critically successful. Should she be abandoned? Of course not. I would say the same for Vanessa's Silver Swan - the original villain being discussed and not Maxwell Lord. She has momentum in comics and an adaptation where she is a main antagonist. That's more than we can say for 98% of Diana's villains.
    But the adaptation wasn't successful, and she doesn't have any momentum in the comics. Robinson didn't follow up on the Dr. Psycho plot and Ayala had her cured in a one-off story and she hasn't been seen in the ongoing since. Whereas Rebirth Cheetah had momentum that didn't run out of gas as quickly, because Rucka did a better job with her than Robinson did with Vanessa.

  13. #1963
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    People love Kristin Wiig (and it seems that nobody aside from the Razzies disliked her in WW84, more what was done with her), but Pedro Pascal was riding the Mandalorian wave, and people were thirsty for him. People were more hyped for Cheetah as a character than Max Lord pre-release, Pascal drew hype as an actor from his other project. And it's not like it lead to any further momentum with Max in the comics or beyond so far.



    But the adaptation wasn't successful, and she doesn't have any momentum in the comics. Robinson didn't follow up on the Dr. Psycho plot and Ayala had her cured in a one-off story and she hasn't been seen in the ongoing since. Whereas Rebirth Cheetah had momentum that didn't run out of gas as quickly, because Rucka did a better job with her than Robinson did with Vanessa.
    I'm not quite certain who was more hyped pre-release. I agree people were more hyped to see the live-action Cheetah because of their fears that she'll look like Cats from 2019. Maxwell Lord is Maxwell Lord. Once we saw him we knew what he'll look like. There was a more curiosity factor with Cheetah since they took longer - rightfully so - to build suspense for the reveal. Did 1984 lead to further momentum with Cheetah in the comics? I can't think of anything substantial until more than two years later when Cloonrad gave her a transformation. Even then that run seemed to end on a whimper until Tom King gave it an adrenaline rush with the introduction of Trinity.

    Most of Diana's cast doesn't have momentum in the comics. Comparatively speaking, Silver Swan has more than the majority of Diana's rogues. I would also say Blue Snowman has more momentum than most even though they were only in the ongoing once - ironically Robinson's run. I agree Rucka did a tremendous job with Cheetah, but she didn't get another major story until G. Willow Wilson who didn't even finish her run. Then Orlando had to drag that carcass of a storyline over the finish line. This excludes the two times she was held captive. Once by Villainy Inc. with Dr. Poison doing experiments on her and the second time via Cloonrad's run. Again, someone was doing experiments on her. With that said Cheetah still has more momentum than most of Diana's rogues.

    Two things can be true at once. Most of Diana's rogues have no momentum in the comics. Comparatively speaking, some still have more momentum than others right now. Silver Swan, Cheetah, Blue Snowman, Dr. Poison, and Dr. Psycho - because of Harley Quinn - are a few that have gotten some momentum. Vita Ayala's story hardly takes Silver Swan off the potential rogues list forever. If I remember correctly, it was a cute story for Wonder Woman's 750 Edition. It can easily be ignored or explained away.

  14. #1964
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PopQuezy View Post
    I'm not quite certain who was more hyped pre-release. I agree people were more hyped to see the live-action Cheetah because of their fears that she'll look like Cats from 2019. Maxwell Lord is Maxwell Lord. Once we saw him we knew what he'll look like. There was a more curiosity factor with Cheetah since they took longer - rightfully so - to build suspense for the reveal. Did 1984 lead to further momentum with Cheetah in the comics? I can't think of anything substantial until more than two years later when Cloonrad gave her a transformation. Even then that run seemed to end on a whimper until Tom King gave it an adrenaline rush with the introduction of Trinity.

    Most of Diana's cast doesn't have momentum in the comics. Comparatively speaking, Silver Swan has more than the majority of Diana's rogues. I would also say Blue Snowman has more momentum than most even though they were only in the ongoing once - ironically Robinson's run. I agree Rucka did a tremendous job with Cheetah, but she didn't get another major story until G. Willow Wilson who didn't even finish her run. Then Orlando had to drag that carcass of a storyline over the finish line. This excludes the two times she was held captive. Once by Villainy Inc. with Dr. Poison doing experiments on her and the second time via Cloonrad's run. Again, someone was doing experiments on her. With that said Cheetah still has more momentum than most of Diana's rogues.

    Two things can be true at once. Most of Diana's rogues have no momentum in the comics. Comparatively speaking, some still have more momentum than others right now. Silver Swan, Cheetah, Blue Snowman, Dr. Poison, and Dr. Psycho - because of Harley Quinn - are a few that have gotten some momentum. Vita Ayala's story hardly takes Silver Swan off the potential rogues list forever. If I remember correctly, it was a cute story for Wonder Woman's 750 Edition. It can easily be ignored or explained away.
    People were more hyped for Cheetah (if also worried for reasons that proved valid) because she's one of her most popular long running villains from the comics. People weren't as hyped for Max no matter how much DC tries to shove him down out throats because he's not a WW character. The movie didn't help Cheetah that much, but she's had momentum off and on over the years because she's been around for so long. Max not getting momentum after the movie is more of a sign he doesn't have a future for this IP because he isn't a part of it to begin with and isn't well liked.

    Vanessa has even less momentum than Cheetah because her arc was less well received than Cheetah in the first place, and has even less to show for it. Robinson's arc was very poorly written even for a new continuity of an old character. King will likely use her, but I wouldn't expect much adherence to Robinson's reboot beyond the design. He is more likely to base her off of Perez's Vanessa and her dynamic with Diana than Robinson.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 12-03-2023 at 07:36 PM.

  15. #1965
    Moderator Nyssane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PopQuezy View Post
    I'm not quite certain who was more hyped pre-release.
    Speaking from a purely marketing perspective, Cheetah had heaps of tie-in merchandise including t-shirts, dolls, action figures, and the like while Max had virtually nothing beyond a Lego minifigure.

    Ares and Doctor Poison also had very few tie-in merchandise. Cheetah's the only one who was heavily promoted out of Diana's rogues.

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