New WW Creative Team: Tom King and Daniel Sampere

[Guy_McNichts]

I apologise for going off-topic but does anyone else find this "paradox" thing baffling? A warrior who wants peace makes perfect sense. I've said this before but if you'll forgive me repeating myself, a "warrior" by definition is someone who fights. That doesn't necessarily mean that they want to fight. Many warriors consider fighting to be a necessary evil. For example, take Billy and Jimmy Lee in the Double Dragon cartoon. Part of their code states "Do not battle if you can avoid it." Some outright hate fighting and only do it out of a sense of duty.

So I really don't get why anyone would think WW being a warrior who also wants peace doesn't make sense. It does.

There are countless examples of warriors who seek peace. The Jedi in Star Wars are established as warriors who keep the peace. Yoda outright says, "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never attack." Aragorn, from Lord of the Rings, was a warrior. And literally the first thing he does when he's made king is make a speech about the importance of peace.
Why is it so strange for Wonder Woman? What makes her such an outlier?

The heart of it is absolutely writers who not only don't understand Wonder Woman, but won't engage with her as a character or her world or what Marston and creators that do understand are aiming for.

What most creators do when approaching a character is seek some core conflict or contradiction to build the story around. Spider-Man, for instance, has his conflict between his personal life as Peter Parker and his responsibilities as a hero. For Superman, many writers will run with the conflict of a god-like being trying to live among ordinary people. Wolverine, a man trying to be an honorable hero in spite of his killer instincts. And so on.

Wonder Woman has plenty of conflicts and contradictions that can be mined for story potential. But when you have guys who don't get her and/or are unwilling to engage with her, they latch onto the warrior/diplomat conflict because...it's easier? It seems like a juicy conflict? They don't know what else to do? Take your pick.

It's the same way they think making her Zeus' daughter is better than the molded from clay, powers from the gods origin. To them, the latter is weird and confusing, while the former is simpler and easier to get.
Azzarello even said, after they changed it, "We finally defined Wonder Woman."

I think a lot of it also stems from the stigma that Amazons = ancient people with swords and arrows and myth = Conan the Barbarian and Xena, therefore Amazons = warriors = violent brutes stuck in the past. Thus, when you're operating on such a narrow and shallow definition of what a warrior is, the idea such a character would seek peace seems contradictory.

It isn't, and it also completely misrepresents the Amazons and what they were intended to be by Marston, but that's what these writers roll with. It also, to them, makes Diana easier to write because it positions her as "the only good one" among the Amazons.

It comes from creators who aren't looking at Wonder Woman as an individual with her own world and lore, but as a small piece of some greater whole (the DC universe and/or the Justice League). The same way Superman is simplified to "boy scout" and Batman is "the smart loner" and Flash becomes "the funny, fast guy." Diana becomes "the warrior"...which doesn't mean anything, unless you decide "warrior" equals "Conan."

[I'm a Fish]

To quote another comic: “peace is worth fighting for.”

[Stanlos]

There's many fair critiques one can lob at Azzarello's WW but how was she personally characterized wasn't one of them. How she was portrayed in JL is on Johns, not Azz.

Well, Gaius, we just have to agree to disagree. I find the entire affair derivative, reductive, and downright hostile to everything the character is about. Him tossing the word Love in the mix a couple times doesn't offset the putrid, cancerous rot at the core of that affair for me.

[Alpha]

Wonder Woman has plenty of conflicts and contradictions that can be mined for story potential. But when you have guys who don't get her and/or are unwilling to engage with her, they latch onto the warrior/diplomat conflict because...it's easier? It seems like a juicy conflict? They don't know what else to do? Take your pick.

I think she is a fantastic character and easy to write if you just focus on her core fantasy, but I don't know what are the clear conflicts and contradictions that could be mined. Which come to to mind to you?

I think one might be the fact that she loves to emotionally connect with people, and she dislikes havinga relationship with someone without that emotional connection.

[HsssH]

This paradox doesn't have anything to do with WW herself. Lots of people have stupid opinions about how the world works. Peace is always established by fighting ant violence, not by some hippie singing kumbaya.

[Fuzzy Mittens]

Or like Peacemaker who seeks peace through American imperialism and crushing all others for a fascist 'peace'

Personally im not a fan of it simply because the people who use the descriptor typically mean 90% warrior 10% peace and oft portray Wonder Woman as some blood hungry barbarian who CRAVES violence and combat and cannot live with peace. Seeking a 'peace' by killing any who oppose her until none remain.

That said, I enjoy that for all that Wonder Woman has numerous enemies who seek to further never ending war (most of which are under Ares umbrella) you also have villains like Doctor Cyber and Osira who wish for world peace, but in a way that is so wholly opposed to the philosophy which Diana believes in to be antithetical to her.

[Guy_McNichts]

I think she is a fantastic character and easy to write if you just focus on her core fantasy, but I don't know what are the clear conflicts and contradictions that could be mined. Which come to to mind to you?

I think one might be the fact that she loves to emotionally connect with people, and she dislikes havinga relationship with someone without that emotional connection.

For me...a, if not the, core conflict of Wonder Woman is the struggle between idealism and the grim, cynical reality of society. Diana is wide-eyed, loving, compassionate and sees the best in everyone and wants the best for everyone, but that's just not how the world works. She strives to be her best for the sake of everyone, but she has limits and there are some things she can't overcome.

I know people have criticized that "trying to hard" isn't a compelling conflict, but a character overworking herself, setting herself to unrealistic standards, struggling when she occasionally fails to, eventually coming to terms with the fact that, as strong as she is, she's still human, and so on can make for good drama and characterization.

It can manifest in her relationships, where she's too focused on her task to get close to people.
There's a place for Diana to be tempted to resort to violence first and forego diplomacy. But I don't see it as a paradox between being a warrior who wants peace, but rather, another extension of her idealism struggling. If Diana's tempted to just punch and kill her way out of a problem, it's not because she's a Warrior and That's What Warriors Do, it's because she's breaking down inside.

That's just my take on her, and I'll admit, it might not be the most laconic or catchy through-line...at least compared to other characters...or maybe I'm just doing a poor job of articulating it.
And maybe that's the real problem with Wonder Woman? She's harder to adequately sum up in a catchy slogan?

...which reminds me of the elevator pitch thread I started some months back.

[Frontier]

I'm oddly reminded of Wonder Woman: Tempest Tossed.

[Gaius]

https://www.instagram.com/daniel_sampere_art/

[phonogram12]

And Injustice is the poorer Kingdom Come, his Nightwing is just a poorer version of Waid's Daredevil/Fraction’s Hawkeye, Dark Knight of Steel is Game of Thrones fanfic, and Zombie fiction is the most repetitive genre in the history of fiction so DCeasesd is pretty crap there too.

Oh, I'm not going to argue Injustice or DCeased in the least. Supposedly Taylor did Injustice entirely for the money and hated every second of it. As for DCeased, I never said I enjoy every one of my favorite writer's stories. For example, I love Waid, but vastly prefer Taylor's Nighwing.

All this said, I stand by my point about Johns because it is (indeed) an entirely valid one.

I saw praise for Tom Taylor in a WW forum and then I saw red.

Same way I feel about Johns, btw lol

[Gaius]

Oh, I'm not going to argue Injustice or DCeased in the least. Supposedly Taylor did Injustice entirely for the money and hated every second of it. As for DCeased, I never said I enjoy every one of my favorite writer's stories. For example, I love Waid, but vastly prefer Taylor's Nighwing.

All this said, I stand by my point about Johns because it is (indeed) an entirely valid one.



Same way I feel about Johns, btw lol

I mean Taylor can say what he wants about the first Injustice series when he was a nobody but that he came back for Injustice 2, Injustice Year Zero, and brought Injustice into his Jon Kent mini, all when he was firmly established at DC and Marvel, speaks far louder than how many times he crows about "that's not how I would write them".

In regards to Johns, than I don't know what to tell you. All writers got tropes that they'll spread across their work. If you don't like Johns particular bag of tricks than fine but he's far from the only one.

Or in regards to Johns re-writing stuff he likes from his childhood? Than sorry, but that's every comic writer who grew up a fan who got into the industry. Mark Waid, currently writing the most throwback book DC's currently publishing, thinks Superman gaslighting his girlfriend should be his permanent status quo entirely because that's what he read when he was a kid, Tim Drake's only the Robin in Zdarsky's Batman stuff because he was 90s comic reader, Venom got his big resurgence over at Marvel because 90s kids are finally running the show over there.

[Mantis-Ray]

Oh yeah on a funny subject since it was mentioned I'm reminded of this scene from Dark Knights of Steel, where Batman winds up encountering the Teen Titans who in that universe are ostracized orphan youths hiding out on the Kent farm. They hate him cause he's been waging a campaign locking up all metahumans because he fears they may threaten the El royal family which is understandable enough.

What got comical is they also hate him cause he's a noble so he tells people what to do leading to a scene where the teens literally explain the concept of democracy and democratic systems to him, "We're better than you because we can vote and listen to each other's opinions". With the Game of Thrones comparisons I would say DKoS is akin to the post-season 4 era of GoT instead of the ones based on Martin's work which uh yeah not the best comparison to Taylor's writing ability.

[Guy_McNichts]

I remember that. It was pretty much this scene from Monty Python & the Holy Grail:




...except played straight.

[Gaius]

Oh yeah on a funny subject since it was mentioned I'm reminded of this scene from Dark Knights of Steel, where Batman winds up encountering the Teen Titans who in that universe are ostracized orphan youths hiding out on the Kent farm. They hate him cause he's been waging a campaign locking up all metahumans because he fears they may threaten the El royal family which is understandable enough.

What got comical is they also hate him cause he's a noble so he tells people what to do leading to a scene where the teens literally explain the concept of democracy and democratic systems to him, "We're better than you because we can vote and listen to each other's opinions". With the Game of Thrones comparisons I would say DKoS is akin to the post-season 4 era of GoT instead of the ones based on Martin's work which uh yeah not the best comparison to Taylor's writing ability.

I remember that. It was pretty much this scene from Monty Python & the Holy Grail:

...except played straight.

Damn, Taylor making me an ardent defender of the divine right of kings.

[Frontier]

As if a "vote" is an entirely foreign concept to a Prince .

(Also I just find it funny how Raven's expression doesn't change at all between panels).