New WW Creative Team: Tom King and Daniel Sampere

[Vordan]

Christ, the whinging already.

Sampere’s WW is pretty great actually. Nice change of pace from the Paquette covers and rotating artists we’ve had for the past year.

More than anything Historia’s greatest accomplishment is being the only WW related thing to come out that this subforum didn’t nitpick to death . I’m sure King will step on some toes but from what I’m seeing in the Cloonrad thread, Wonder Woman as a franchise needs a shot of adrenaline right now. It needs a big creator taking big swings because her book hasn’t attracted much interest or excitement since Rucka left around five years ago.

[Frontier]

More than anything Historia’s greatest accomplishment is being the only WW related thing to come out that this subforum didn’t nitpick to death . I’m sure King will step on some toes but from what I’m seeing in the Cloonrad thread, Wonder Woman as a franchise needs a shot of adrenaline right now. It needs a big creator taking big swings because her book hasn’t attracted much interest or excitement since Rucka left around five years ago.

I feel like it lost a lot of goodwill and momentum when Trial of the Amazon kind of turned into a hot mess.

[Vordan]

I feel like it lost a lot of goodwill and momentum when Trial of the Amazon kind of turned into a hot mess.

For me the run peaked with the first arc. Nothing was as enjoyable and I ended up dropping the book again not long after. Hersey to say on this forum but the only two post-Flashpoint WW mainline runs I’ve enjoyed start to finish are Azz and Rucka. May King be the third.

[Frontier]

For me the run peaked with the first arc. Nothing was as enjoyable and I ended up dropping the book again not long after. Hersey to say on this forum but the only two post-Flashpoint WW mainline runs I’ve enjoyed start to finish are Azz and Rucka. May King be the third.

I liked the stuff with Diana re-integrating back into Man's World and Image-Maker.

They also delivered probably one of the best Trinity stories, so there is that .

[Agent Z]

I don't think "masculine" is the right adjective, "unglamorous" fits better. There are no frills, no thrills and she looks like a corn-fed volleyball player from Idaho. She doesn't go to Coachella or drink dirty martinis, she goes to Branson, Missouri for country/western music and Bud Light.

In this post-Instagram world we live in with rampant BBL's and boob jobs, where cashiers at the grocery store wear contoured make-up, lace front wigs and fake eyelashes so long they can barely see past them, it's a little jarring and overly quaint.

So in other words, she looks like a person and not a living mannequin.

[Koriand'r]

So in other words, she looks like a person and not a living mannequin.

She looks like a person named Becky with squinty eyes and a pinhead, not Diana of Themyscira.

[Shimbo]

She looks like a person named Becky with squinty eyes and a pinhead, not Diana of Themyscira.

While I agree that Diana should be a paragon of beauty, I can't say I agree with your personal assessment of Sampere's Diana. I like a feminine Diana, but she was not raised in Man's World and shouldn't share their ideas of beauty, hair, makeup and fashion. Don't get me wrong, she should look fabulous, but her idea of fabulous would be effortless and not necessarily grounded in women's socialization of the past century....

Regardless, he's on like his first few issues. He'll settle into her aesthetic soon enough, considering he's an incredibly high caliber artist. I also am more concerned with how he portrays her powers and her gravitas than if she looks particularly dolled up. Not that it has to be an either or. It shouldn't...but if I had to pick which one I cared about more....

You did make me snort though, haha.

[Koriand'r]

While I agree that Diana should be a paragon of beauty, I can't say I agree with your personal assessment of Sampere's Diana. I like a feminine Diana, but she was not raised in Man's World and shouldn't share their ideas of beauty, hair, makeup and fashion. Don't get me wrong, she should look fabulous, but her idea of fabulous would be effortless and not necessarily grounded in women's socialization of the past century....

Regardless, he's on like his first few issues. He'll settle into her aesthetic soon enough, considering he's an incredibly high caliber artist. I also am more concerned with how he portrays her powers and her gravitas than if she looks particularly dolled up. Not that it has to be an either or. It shouldn't...but if I had to pick which one I cared about more....

I'm from the "It's better to look good than to feel good" school of thought so I'm all about the visuals. I also care deeply about Wonder Woman's ideals and how they're portrayed, but a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down. I'm not asking for a whole lot here, when I say sugar this is sweet enough.

WW ALT REVENGE OF THE GODS.jpg

Also I have to disagree about Diana having knowledge of Man's World fashion and beauty, she's a quick study. One of the things that endeared me to her first issue in the Marston era was her commentary on then contemporary fashion and how much she liked it. If DC's decree that "everything happened" is correct, this is a woman who ran her own clothing boutique and gave out fashion advice. We can't pretend like glamour isn't a part of her overall packaging, it's featured prominently in every live action version of the character.

[Mantis-Ray]

While I agree that Diana should be a paragon of beauty, I can't say I agree with your personal assessment of Sampere's Diana. I like a feminine Diana, but she was not raised in Man's World and shouldn't share their ideas of beauty, hair, makeup and fashion. Don't get me wrong, she should look fabulous, but her idea of fabulous would be effortless and not necessarily grounded in women's socialization of the past century....

Regardless, he's on like his first few issues. He'll settle into her aesthetic soon enough, considering he's an incredibly high caliber artist. I also am more concerned with how he portrays her powers and her gravitas than if she looks particularly dolled up. Not that it has to be an either or. It shouldn't...but if I had to pick which one I cared about more....

You did make me snort though, haha.

He presumably drew her in Dark Crisis. Probably not to too much of a major capacity since I don't think Diana was a big part of that event but we can prolly use any scenes there as a potential preview of how he'll handle Diana's powers.

[SiegePerilous02]

I'm from the "It's better to look good than to feel good" school of thought so I'm all about the visuals. I also care deeply about Wonder Woman's ideals and how they're portrayed, but a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down. I'm not asking for a whole lot here, when I say sugar this is sweet enough.

WW ALT REVENGE OF THE GODS.jpg

Also I have to disagree about Diana having knowledge of Man's World fashion and beauty, she's a quick study. One of the things that endeared me to her first issue in the Marston era was her commentary on then contemporary fashion and how much she liked it. If DC's decree that "everything happened" is correct, this is a woman who ran her own clothing boutique and gave out fashion advice. We can't pretend like glamour isn't a part of her overall packaging, it's featured prominently in every live action version of the character.

Doesn't the run where she runs a boutique also include her not getting behind the Feminist movement because she "wasn't a joiner" and in fact generally didn't like hanging around other women?

Not everything old needs to be adhered to. I think Diana would both have fun with Man's World fashion and make up on a personal level, but not share all of the ideas of beauty or it being rigidly pushed on society

[Pallas71]

Screenshot 2023-04-20 141047.jpg
I think Daniel's WW is beautiful...

[bardkeep]

I don't think "masculine" is the right adjective, "unglamorous" fits better. There are no frills, no thrills and she looks like a corn-fed volleyball player from Idaho. She doesn't go to Coachella or drink dirty martinis, she goes to Branson, Missouri for country/western music and Bud Light.

In this post-Instagram world we live in with rampant BBL's and boob jobs, where cashiers at the grocery store wear contoured make-up, lace front wigs and fake eyelashes so long they can barely see past them, it's a little jarring and overly quaint.

Hooooo boy. A lot to unpack here, but the point is positive femininity (kindness, compassion, warmth, solidarity), not restrictive or exclusionary femininity. Saying someone can't be feminine or elegant if she's tall and muscular is absolutely the latter. Plus she's an Amazon who can bench press a mountain, why wouldn't she look tall and athletic? (and the "she's magic" excuse doesn't quite hold when all of the male powerhouses look like bodybuilders...)

I'm loving Sampere's Diana, personally. I think she's gorgeous and has gravitas and I love that she looks super strong in a way that's functional and realistic rather than over-the-top. The only complaint I see is "he sometimes draws her head too small" and that's such a minor grievance.

More than anything Historia’s greatest accomplishment is being the only WW related thing to come out that this subforum didn’t nitpick to death . I’m sure King will step on some toes but from what I’m seeing in the Cloonrad thread, Wonder Woman as a franchise needs a shot of adrenaline right now. It needs a big creator taking big swings because her book hasn’t attracted much interest or excitement since Rucka left around five years ago.

Tbh I think that's partially because Historia's readership was self-selecting...fans who are more traditional and/or concerned with things like aesthetics, power scaling, and continuity were never gonna be interested in a prestige series about the Amazons. I've seen plenty of nonsense elsewhere about how it's "anti-male," "promoting a woke agenda," or "ruining Wonder Woman."

Obviously we can't know what to expect from King, but I already know we'll see loads of complaints about him under-utilizing her existing villains/supporting cast or changing things. Personally I'm totally cool with new characters and rogues as long as he sets up enough stuff for future writers to explore and I can rock with big changes as long as they're not regressive (thematically or narratively) like the ones in n52 or the Heinboot.

For me the run peaked with the first arc. Nothing was as enjoyable and I ended up dropping the book again not long after. Hersey to say on this forum but the only two post-Flashpoint WW mainline runs I’ve enjoyed start to finish are Azz and Rucka. May King be the third.

I get why you put Azz in there. I would've liked his run if it weren't WW and I'd just been looking for a good story - it was exciting and action-packed and featured gorgeous art from Cliff Chiang. I'm not a purist by any means (I enjoyed Dead Earth for what it was, I got a kick out of WML's Taco Whiz arc, obviously I loved Historia...), but I couldn't get past the fact that it used the definitive feminist icon in fiction to tell an aggressively anti-feminist story and set that as the status quo.

But yeah, otherwise agree. In fact, I'd take an extra step...other than Rucka, I'd say the only decent to good mainline runs post-Infinite Crisis were Gail Simone and Steve Orlando, both of which were seriously flawed. Gail's run had a brilliant first arc followed by a huge mixed bag and Orlando's run (a) was a short fill-in and (b) amounted to a pretty meh overall story elevated by some great moments and individual issues.

[Gaius]

But yeah, otherwise agree. In fact, I'd take an extra step...other than Rucka, I'd say the only decent to good mainline runs post-Infinite Crisis were Gail Simone and Steve Orlando, both of which were seriously flawed. Gail's run had a brilliant first arc followed by a huge mixed bag and Orlando's run (a) was a short fill-in and (b) amounted to a pretty meh overall story elevated by some great moments and individual issues.

Yeah, I've thought this quite a bit overlooking the years since Infinite Crisis. It's why I think the story and Max Lord's forced inclusion into WW media deserves more scorn than it gets given how it thoroughly derailed the character in a way not seen since Kanigher.

[Zagre]

I liked Sampere's Diana as well. The guy's a potent ilustrator.

[Alpha]

She looks like a person named Becky with squinty eyes and a pinhead, not Diana of Themyscira.

Have you ever thought that maybe your fashion sense is specific enough that some Wonder Woman fans would prefer something entirely different?

Because for me Diana should dress in multiple ways, but above all else, in a bohemian style, not anything you suggested.

And we have to find some way to talk about this subject without being restrictive.

For example, I'm really cold on most Wonder Woman haircuts, and I deeply dislike the one Perez gave her in the 80s. But I'm well aware others do not