New WW Creative Team: Tom King and Daniel Sampere

[VonHammersmark]

How would people being empathetic to a radical degree be "too much of a good thing"? What do you think that would look like to the point it might be worrisome?

Because a lot of bodies are piling up because of a lack of empathy in the world (among other things). And the laws don't always have the peoples' best interests at heart, so sometimes breaking them is the moral choice

Spider Man risked the whole Multiverse out of empathy for Green Goblin which sadly didn’t end well for Aunt May

People were willing to dive headlong into nuclear Armageddon for the sake of Ukraine, that's how dangerous too much empathy can be ie world-endingly dangerous lol

[HotBoy]

The reason for the tug-of-war between the clay-blessed-by-the-goddesses origin and the Zeus-is-the-daddy origin is because behind the scenes, the corporate executives feel as though they need the buy-in of adolescent boys and adult men, who they feel have the greatest access to disposable income, to ensure that the Wonder Woman brand is a success across the globe. They believe that in order to do that, they must give boys and men something that might "legitimize" Wonder Woman in their eyes. An all-female birth, they believe, doesn't do that. But having the king of the Greek gods be Wonder Woman's father? Well, that is something that they think boys and men can relate to, something that gives boys and men an "in" that works against the "ick factor" of Wonder Woman being a woman in society where boys and men are conditioned to not like or embrace anything feminine, girly, or womanly.

Some of you might remember that the first Wonder Woman animated film was the first modern attempt to court this audience, followed a couple of years later by the Azzarello comic book run.

Gail Simone talked about how there was a real corporate/editorial push to make Wonder Woman "male-friendly" by adding more men to the book. That's where ideas like Warkiller, the male Amazons, and Jason come from.

Untitled2.jpg

https://bleedingcool.com/movies/warn...-woman-origin/

Word on the street is that DC/WB was a bit stunned by the overwhelming critical and financial success of Kelly Sue DeConnick's Historia and are now a bit unsure if whether they should continue with the Zeus stuff or return to the clay origin, since the latter is more popular than they initially believed.

If the result is that neither feels definitive or declarative, that's wholly on purpose. They're hedging their bets.

[Gaius]

Spider Man risked the whole Multiverse out of empathy for Green Goblin which sadly didn’t end well for Aunt May

People were willing to dive headlong into nuclear Armageddon for the sake of Ukraine, that's how dangerous too much empathy can be ie world-endingly dangerous lol

Only country willing to risk nuclear Armageddon for Ukraine is the country currently invading Ukraine as a (largely meaningless) way to ward off countries sending supplies for Ukraine to defend itself.

Not exactly a case of radical empathy.

[Agent Z]

The world is increasingly dangerous right now, and I don't view "too much empathy" as one of the causes.

Diana being empathetic is "dangerous" in all the right ways that the world needs.

"Misplaced empathy" might be the proper term.

[SiegePerilous02]

Spider Man risked the whole Multiverse out of empathy for Green Goblin which sadly didn’t end well for Aunt May

People were willing to dive headlong into nuclear Armageddon for the sake of Ukraine, that's how dangerous too much empathy can be ie world-endingly dangerous lol

Only country willing to risk nuclear Armageddon for Ukraine is the country currently invading Ukraine as a (largely meaningless) way to ward off countries sending supplies for Ukraine to defend itself.

Not exactly a case of radical empathy.

What Gaius said.

"Misplaced empathy" might be the proper term.

Yeah that might work better

[Mantis-Ray]

So like how in Gundam Age Kio Asuna was obsessed with seeing the Vagan forces as victims and kept defending them, even fighting his own allies to protect them constantly pleading to "understand each other".

Despite the Vagans being remorseless conquerors who don't give a **** about peace or love, and simply want to kill and conquer and it results in the needless deaths of many of his friends and allies.

Misplaced Empathy indeed.

[Gaius]

The reason for the tug-of-war between the clay-blessed-by-the-goddesses origin and the Zeus-is-the-daddy origin is because behind the scenes, the corporate executives feel as though they need the buy-in of adolescent boys and adult men, who they feel have the greatest access to disposable income, to ensure that the Wonder Woman brand is a success across the globe. They believe that in order to do that, they must give boys and men something that might "legitimize" Wonder Woman in their eyes. An all-female birth, they believe, doesn't do that. But having the king of the Greek gods be Wonder Woman's father? Well, that is something that they think boys and men can relate to, something that gives boys and men an "in" that works against the "ick factor" of Wonder Woman being a woman in society where boys and men are conditioned to not like or embrace anything feminine, girly, or womanly.

Some of you might remember that the first Wonder Woman animated film was the first modern attempt to court this audience, followed a couple of years later by the Azzarello comic book run.

Gail Simone talked about how there was a real corporate/editorial push to make Wonder Woman "male-friendly" by adding more men to the book. That's where ideas like Warkiller, the male Amazons, and Jason come from.

Word on the street is that DC/WB was a bit stunned by the overwhelming critical and financial success of Kelly Sue DeConnick's Historia and are now a bit unsure if whether they should continue with the Zeus stuff or return to the clay origin, since the latter is more popular than they initially believed.

If the result is that neither feels definitive or declarative, that's wholly on purpose. They're hedging their bets.

Tbf to Simone, I actually thought Warkiller and the male Amazons (since there are mythological versions of them) weren't terrible additions. Simone's run was kind of petering out that time and I don't think they're like super integral that should be brought back but I thought it at least they were done better than later stuff like Daddy Zeus or Jason since they never really took away or were needlessly inserted in to WW's origins.

[HotBoy]

Tbf to Simone, I actually thought Warkiller and the male Amazons (since there are mythological versions of them) weren't terrible additions. Simone's run was kind of petering out that time and I don't think they're like super integral that should be brought back but I thought it at least they were done better than later stuff like Daddy Zeus or Jason since they never really took away or were needlessly inserted in to WW's origins.

Oh, I wasn't trying to take a swipe at Simone. I was just reiterated what she, herself, said about working on the book. The idea for Warkiller and the male Amazons came from the edict. That's all I was trying to communicate. Whether they were good ideas or not, I leave that to personal opinion.

Attachment 132115

[Ascended]

I'm really feeling the idea of Diana's radical empathy. I don't recall any writers diving into that and treating it as a negative thing, but it absolutely could be. Pretty interesting idea, and an excellent reading on Diana, I think.

But it still applies and has applied to Clark’s modern depictions for the last 30 years. Probably ever since Byrne had him kill off the Phantom Zoners from the other universe. So much so that it affected Clark mentally. You may not like it but it’s true.

Some runs, yes. And it's not a post-Crisis construct either, it actually can be traced back to the 50's, post-War 40's perhaps. As America entered a conservative phase Superman became much friendlier with authority and much more willing to work with them.

But we shouldn't judge a character off bad writing that gets things wrong. Certainly on Diana's forum we're all aware of how often and easily that can happen. And it has nothing to do with what I 'like,' it has to do with some basic literary analysis. I actually used to think Clark wasn't the type of guy to push back against the system, until I sat down and really looked at him and his history. Clark will do the right thing. No matter what. And that's actually terrifying, because short of taking direct control over the world there aren't a lot of lines he won't cross when push comes to shove.

And I'm fine with Clark struggling after taking a life. That's very well established and consistent, actually. Happens after most killings, unless the person he killed didn't look human. But my issue with King's statement is about Clark being more of an establishment guy, which is incorrect.

Well he did say that he’d probably have a different opinion on Supes when he actually gets to write a Supes book, then Supes will be his favorite and Supes will be the radical.

One can hope. But marketing for your current project doesn't require trying to sell a line of BS either.

Only non-Wonder I’d like to see in Diana’s book right now is Zatanna.

Why not Zee?

Gail Simone talked about how there was a real corporate/editorial push to make Wonder Woman "male-friendly" by adding more men to the book. That's where ideas like Warkiller, the male Amazons, and Jason come from.

Word on the street is that DC/WB was a bit stunned by the overwhelming critical and financial success of Kelly Sue DeConnick's Historia and are now a bit unsure if whether they should continue with the Zeus stuff or return to the clay origin, since the latter is more popular than they initially believed.

If only there was some way they could research their consumer base and find out what those customers really think. Some kind of....consumer marketing research, if you will.

The Zeus origin was never popular, I want to know who these execs were talking to that made them think it was.

[WonderLight789]

Only country willing to risk nuclear Armageddon for Ukraine is the country currently invading Ukraine as a (largely meaningless) way to ward off countries sending supplies for Ukraine to defend itself.

Not exactly a case of radical empathy.

The Politics in USA have always been full of hypocrisy. They have made a history of getting benefits when other countries go to war.

[Will Evans]

I'm really feeling the idea of Diana's radical empathy. I don't recall any writers diving into that and treating it as a negative thing, but it absolutely could be. Pretty interesting idea, and an excellent reading on Diana, I think.



Some runs, yes. And it's not a post-Crisis construct either, it actually can be traced back to the 50's, post-War 40's perhaps. As America entered a conservative phase Superman became much friendlier with authority and much more willing to work with them.

But we shouldn't judge a character off bad writing that gets things wrong. Certainly on Diana's forum we're all aware of how often and easily that can happen. And it has nothing to do with what I 'like,' it has to do with some basic literary analysis. I actually used to think Clark wasn't the type of guy to push back against the system, until I sat down and really looked at him and his history. Clark will do the right thing. No matter what. And that's actually terrifying, because short of taking direct control over the world there aren't a lot of lines he won't cross when push comes to shove.

And I'm fine with Clark struggling after taking a life. That's very well established and consistent, actually. Happens after most killings, unless the person he killed didn't look human. But my issue with King's statement is about Clark being more of an establishment guy, which is incorrect.



One can hope. But marketing for your current project doesn't require trying to sell a line of BS either.



Why not Zee?



If only there was some way they could research their consumer base and find out what those customers really think. Some kind of....consumer marketing research, if you will.

The Zeus origin was never popular, I want to know who these execs were talking to that made them think it was.

Probably from some of the constant complaints about the character during the late 90s, calling her a “golem.”

Which I’m sure the people complaining about it never read her book anyway. And only learned about her clay origin when wiki became popular.

[Gaius]

Probably from some of the constant complaints about the character during the late 90s, calling her a “golem.”

Which I’m sure the people complaining about it never read her book anyway. And only learned about her clay origin when wiki became popular.

@Mark Waid

[Frontier]

@Mark Waid

Now that you mention it I feel like he's turned her back into Clay like two times .

[VonHammersmark]

Only country willing to risk nuclear Armageddon for Ukraine is the country currently invading Ukraine as a (largely meaningless) way to ward off countries sending supplies for Ukraine to defend itself.

Not exactly a case of radical empathy.

Thank God we have (so far) denied some people’s wish for direct NATO involvement in Ukraine, risking nuclear World War out of empathy with Ukraine is definitely pretty reckless in my view. The Russians may or may not be bluffing, I hope to never find out

[Vordan]

The reason for the tug-of-war between the clay-blessed-by-the-goddesses origin and the Zeus-is-the-daddy origin is because behind the scenes, the corporate executives feel as though they need the buy-in of adolescent boys and adult men, who they feel have the greatest access to disposable income, to ensure that the Wonder Woman brand is a success across the globe. They believe that in order to do that, they must give boys and men something that might "legitimize" Wonder Woman in their eyes. An all-female birth, they believe, doesn't do that. But having the king of the Greek gods be Wonder Woman's father? Well, that is something that they think boys and men can relate to, something that gives boys and men an "in" that works against the "ick factor" of Wonder Woman being a woman in society where boys and men are conditioned to not like or embrace anything feminine, girly, or womanly.

Some of you might remember that the first Wonder Woman animated film was the first modern attempt to court this audience, followed a couple of years later by the Azzarello comic book run.

Gail Simone talked about how there was a real corporate/editorial push to make Wonder Woman "male-friendly" by adding more men to the book. That's where ideas like Warkiller, the male Amazons, and Jason come from.

Untitled2.jpg

https://bleedingcool.com/movies/warn...-woman-origin/

Word on the street is that DC/WB was a bit stunned by the overwhelming critical and financial success of Kelly Sue DeConnick's Historia and are now a bit unsure if whether they should continue with the Zeus stuff or return to the clay origin, since the latter is more popular than they initially believed.

If the result is that neither feels definitive or declarative, that's wholly on purpose. They're hedging their bets.

I’d be interested to see the source for said financial success because what numbers we do have aren't encouraging, which unfortunately is probably why we are still waiting to see if DC will greenlight more or not.