New WW Creative Team: Tom King and Daniel Sampere

[HotBoy]

But, then, it kills what Paradise Island should be about. I use should be because in All-Star Comics #8, Marston wrote Hippolyte mentioning that their weapons are better than the men's world. If you're going to constantly show the Amazons are in some form of strife or is basically hypocrites, what's even the point anymore? Like, I'm okay showing them having a troubles every so often, only for them to overcome it. Proving that Paradise Island is a beacon of hope, that humanity can reach this point. But yeah, there's no point in creating these ideas of that this is what humanity can do if we strive for it. I guess this a casualty of writers wanting the Amazons more like the myths instead of keeping them aligned with Marston's vision (minus the weapons).

You actually have a great point.

But it seems that many human beings reject the idea of a utopia as "boring." Other analyses say that the idea of a utopia is distinctly discriminatory (because in order to be a utopia, it always has to exclude someone). We see this play out in real life via xenophobic impulses.

The idea of a utopia held a lot of sway in earlier eras. But in contemporary times, artists and thinkers seem to be more interest in interrogating, critiquing, and problematizing them. Ursula LeGuin did in "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas." Toni Morrison did in Paradise. Marvel is currently doing it with Wakanda--which is also annoying some fans. And clearly DC has been doing it over and over with Themyscira.

I think that it points to a particular lack of imagination. If readers crave conflict, it seems clear to me that the Amazons can have it vis-à-vis the gods, demons, and outsiders.

But to DC's defense, utopias don't just materialize out of thin air. In order to attain a utopian society, a lot of bloodshed is necessary beforehand because everyone who wants to be a part of it might not have the best intentions and you have to find a way to weed them out/exclude them and that inevitably leads to some kind of war.

Then again, these are comic books and those concerns can be completely ignored for the larger purpose of depicting a utopia.

Unfortunately though, the modern reader would be suspicious or bored, and tune out. And at the end of the day, these publishers are trying to sell books, so for better or for worse: Game of Thrones Amazons it is!

[HotBoy]

It took YEARS to get that out of my head and out of my nightmares. Thanks, HotBoy!

LOL! And you were rightfully terrified. The nightmarishness is on TEN. LOL!

[Hypo]

Wonder Woman #800 DC Pride Variant by Ted Brandt and Ro Stein

[bardkeep]

You actually have a great point.

But it seems that many human beings reject the idea of a utopia as "boring." Other analyses say that the idea of a utopia is distinctly discriminatory (because in order to be a utopia, it always has to exclude someone). We see this play out in real life via xenophobic impulses.

The idea of a utopia held a lot of sway in earlier eras. But in contemporary times, artists and thinkers seem to be more interest in interrogating, critiquing, and problematizing them. Ursula LeGuin did in "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas." Toni Morrison did in Paradise. Marvel is currently doing it with Wakanda--which is also annoying some fans. And clearly DC has been doing it over and over with Themyscira.

I think that it points to a particular lack of imagination. If readers crave conflict, it seems clear to me that the Amazons can have it vis-à-vis the gods, demons, and outsiders.

But to DC's defense, utopias don't just materialize out of thin air. In order to attain a utopian society, a lot of bloodshed is necessary beforehand because everyone who wants to be a part of it might not have the best intentions and you have to find a way to weed them out/exclude them and that inevitably leads to some kind of war.

Then again, these are comic books and those concerns can be completely ignored for the larger purpose of depicting a utopia.

Unfortunately though, the modern reader would be suspicious or bored, and tune out. And at the end of the day, these publishers are trying to sell books, so for better or for worse: Game of Thrones Amazons it is!

I'll also draw on something Kelly Sue DeConnick said about the Amazons in her critique of Marston that I think rings true - "a pedestal is just a different type of box." I'm not interested in perfect Amazons.

Comics don't serve the same purpose as they did back in Marston's day - they aren't primarily instructive anymore and the kid focus in mainline comics really just depends on the writer (e.g. Rucka's first run was clearly adult-minded, the current run is clearly more kid-minded, Perez's run felt like a mature 13+, most runs have sadly just been like most "adult" mainline comics written by and for manchildren). As you said, the modern reader wants a compelling story above all else, and perfection doesn't yield that...which is kinda why it makes sense that Rucka had to destroy Jimenez's reimagined Themyscira.

And there have been lots of stories that have dug into Amazon conflicts without demonizing them. Phil Jimenez's Paradise Lost was all about an Amazon war but he still very much saw them as an inspirational ideal. The Circle was about a fringe group of psycho Amazons who literally tried to kill a baby but it didn't reflect poorly on the whole island. WML's The Contest was definitely unflattering (especially to Hippolyta) but they didn't come across as bloodthirsty monsters. Trial of the Amazons, clumsily executed as it was, showed the Amazons' capacity for both conflict and cooperation. Even YA/all-ages stories often explore Amazon political conflict (see: Legend of WW, Young Diana).

Then there's the fact that the Amazons as set up by Perez fight the monsters in Doom's Doorway for thousands of years. Or you can look to Historia, which was framed around a big war with the gods - and I suspect the next books (fingers crossed) will be all about the conflict that emerges on the island.

I'm probably giving TK too much credit but I can't really see him going full Azzarello if he (a) has already said multiple times that the character doesn't need to be fixed, (b) has the editor who worked on both Nubia series keeping him in check, and (c) is evidently writing a "Diana is awesome and fighting The Man" story that begins with her fighting the US government because they're vilifying the Amazons.

Wonder Woman #800 DC Pride Variant by Ted Brandt and Ro Stein

Oh I just love this, that Artemis is gorgeous. Telling myself she's trying to catch up with Diana :P

[Gaius]

You know one pro of King is that given he's given he's given a lot of leeway on his other, book might get dragged down by editorial edicts that go above just the WW editor like Brittany Holtzer.

[HotBoy]

I'm surprised no one has gone on Twitter to ask Tom King if he has plans to update/revitalize some of Diana's existing Rogues Gallery given that it's often said a hero is only as good as their villains.

[Perseus]

House of the Dragon shows you dont need outside conflict. Hell most of the conflict in GoT took place between the 7 kingdoms.

If they approach The Amazons having different houses like in Historia or LoWW, the basic concept can work.

No, I agree with the HOTD comparison, but that requires, at least to me, Diana making controversial decisions as princess that her mother backs her up on, upsetting a prominet figure in their government. Which would again require outside interference to explain Diana's controversial decision because where else would she find something to cause that disruption of Themyscira's status quo?

Problem with the houses is that the island holds maybe 4000 amazons, not a massive population to justify different tribes. If/When the Bana and Esquesita come in then maybe I can see it but again, it would be a max of 3 major factions to worry about.

I do hope there is a massive Historia influence, not a 1/1 adaptation, but it was such a great title that it should serve as a benchmark for future reference.

[PopQuezy]

I agree about Doctor Poison, but more important than her design, it's the gimmick from that run that matters. She created liquid curses by using science to dissect the cadaver of gods and mythical creatures.

I would love a Pandora Virus adaptation in animation. To keep this on topic, I wouldn't mind if King used that story as inspiration for a Dr. Poison or Villiany Inc arc.

[Alpha]

You actually have a great point.

But it seems that many human beings reject the idea of a utopia as "boring." Other analyses say that the idea of a utopia is distinctly discriminatory (because in order to be a utopia, it always has to exclude someone). We see this play out in real life via xenophobic impulses.

The idea of a utopia held a lot of sway in earlier eras. But in contemporary times, artists and thinkers seem to be more interest in interrogating, critiquing, and problematizing them. Ursula LeGuin did in "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas." Toni Morrison did in Paradise. Marvel is currently doing it with Wakanda--which is also annoying some fans. And clearly DC has been doing it over and over with Themyscira.

I think that it points to a particular lack of imagination. If readers crave conflict, it seems clear to me that the Amazons can have it vis-à-vis the gods, demons, and outsiders.

But to DC's defense, utopias don't just materialize out of thin air. In order to attain a utopian society, a lot of bloodshed is necessary beforehand because everyone who wants to be a part of it might not have the best intentions and you have to find a way to weed them out/exclude them and that inevitably leads to some kind of war.

Then again, these are comic books and those concerns can be completely ignored for the larger purpose of depicting a utopia.

Unfortunately though, the modern reader would be suspicious or bored, and tune out. And at the end of the day, these publishers are trying to sell books, so for better or for worse: Game of Thrones Amazons it is!

And being an Utopia doesn't mean it isn't a dynamic society with various conflicting agendas that are resolved in hard ways. Peace isn't easy, and it doesn't have to be mellow, the creative ways they find peace over the centuries and millenia can be quite exciting.

[Guy_McNichts]

It's reasonable to believe that the Amazons have had their share of conflicts on the island over the centuries. I don't think anyone wants them to be monolithic.

But I also think it's easy to feel antsy about this when we've seen many times over the years writers' attempt to inject conflict and dissenting points of views within Themyscira turns them into hypocrites or backwards thinking or worse. Something that Diana must reject or renounce in favor of the Man's World...what I referred to earlier as making her "the only good Amazon."
The obvious extreme of this would be the New 52's Azzarellazons.

It's fine line to inject nuance and depth into something without undermining its core purpose.
I think an apt comparison would be how they've handled Wakanda in the Black Panther movies, particularly the first one. A big part of that film is that Wakanda, as great as it is, isn't without flaws and mistakes that T'Challa must confront.

But it still never loses sight of the idea that Wakanda is meant to be an idealized and empowering place. Hopefully, whatever comes of this Paradise Lost and Tom King's upcoming run, they don't lose sight of the notion that Themyscira and her Amazons are supposed to be something and a people to be looked up to and inspired by.

Also, from a narrative perspective, Themyscira is supposed to be the easy, safe paradise that Diana gives up to be a hero. I think writers, too eager to play up the "a warrior since birth" tend to forget that part of the reason she leaves against her mother's wishes is because she's sheltered and has little to do there.

[Dougbauer]

By Tom king
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[Dr. Poison]

I'm surprised no one has gone on Twitter to ask Tom King if he has plans to update/revitalize some of Diana's existing Rogues Gallery given that it's often said a hero is only as good as their villains.

I did but he didn't respond to that besides liking my tweet.

[Vordan]

Big Dawn of DC interview coming out tomorrow and King is also going to be on Word Balloon this week. Maybe we’ll get more insight into his plans for the Rogues there, but I expect his opinion right now is that her villains mostly suck and it’s a challenge for him to write them but he’s working on it.

[Nyssane]

I'm fully expecting 3+ years of "Wonder Woman's brand new archenemy" who will 99% likely be a straight white dude.

[PopQuezy]

I'm fully expecting 3+ years of "Wonder Woman's brand new archenemy" who will 99% likely be a straight white dude.

I am also terrified this may happen. However, I do have a modicum of hope that we bypass this future because someone in D.C.'s offices - either editorial or executives - seems to have a renewed investment in rogue galleries. Every Wonder Woman writer since Rucka has used established villains, established villains have been used on D.C. promo art, and even out-of-continuity Wonder Woman comics like Sensational Wonder Woman and Wonder Woman Evolution have used established villains.

That may not mean anything, but I'm hoping the editor, Brittany Holtzer, strongly encourages the use of established rogues.