New WW Creative Team: Tom King and Daniel Sampere

[Sebastianne]

I have read Supergirl WoT and Superman UitS and I see that the treatment is the same, it takes them out of the confines of space, surrounds them with new characters, with long and boring narratives.
What is good about it is that it understands and brings out the best in the characters, but to do so it is based on lowering their power and not surrounding them with their usual friends and villains.
If this is the tone that is expected for Wonder Woman, it is not what I like, I prefer its other kind of narrative like in Adam Stranger or Mr Miracle, but I do not see that that is the best for an ongoing series either.
By the way, those two mini series are a "copy" of what was already done by the master Messner Loebs at the beginning of his run in WW, in what is one of my favorite story arcs.

[Mantis-Ray]

The thing I think is key of whether he gets Diana right is the avoidance of 2 things in his Batman run.

1. Avoiding her being broken. Thats really the issue with the portrayal of Batman, he focused too much on Bruce being fundamentally broken and unwell, which really is a reoccurring issue with Batman writers portraying him as this irreparably broken shell of a person but King did get pretty bad about it. His Superman and Supergirl avoided it because it was more preserving in the face of adversity or trauma in Supergirl's case. Like WoT does go into Supergirl's horrific origin watching all her friends, family, and entire world die but its used to showcase her strength of character because she doesn't let it completely dominate her. Meanwhile Catwoman leaves Bruce at the alter and he loses his fucking mind.

Which leads into 2. No Catwoman figure. Every writer has those characters that brings the worst out of them and Selina is King's. He was really obsessed with the Catwoman romance to the stories detriment and the result was various issues like Batman can only be happy when he's with Selina at basically the expense of the rest of his family or Selina becoming hypercompetent overpowered in the story to the point while Thomas Wayne can easily thrash the entire Batfam, Selina can easily thrash him despite how little sense that makes.

So if King can avoid portraying Diana as fundamentally damaged or having a creator's pet, we might avoid the worst excesses of his Batman run.

Plus since the book's not bi-monthly the pacing will prolly be better. King's Batman could be really glacial in pacing because he was contracted for a hundred issues and he obviously did not have enough story to fill in that many issues, especially on a 2 issue per month deadline leading him to drag things out to fit in the books. Hopefully the pacing will be healthier here.

[Frontier]

If Diana's fighting against the government does that mean she's opposing Steve/Etta in Checkmate or will they end up helping her from the inside?

Assuming King even cares about her supporting cast.

[Avi]

Well, this can be part of "struggle to win" lol.

And honestly, even a character losing isn't necessarily a loser, and you can look at Born again as an example.

In there Kingpin basically completely fucks over Matt's life, and while Matt has low points (Such as trying to attack Fisk with absolutely no plans), he's still trying, and when he finally puts his costume back, his triumphs start coming back.

So yeah, I agree with your point, villains can only be super threatening if they get to win once in a while (Or at the very least, get really close to it while being a big threat during the story), but they'll only look that competent if the hero is also competent, 'cause if Cheetah defeats Diana if Diana gives up as soon as a nail is broken, neither one will look impressive.

It's can be in a weird way, a symbiotic relationship, Diana still has to look competent enough even when losing so her villains can be elevated in believable ways that doesn't make them into boring Villain Sues, 'cause anyone can write a villain who casually defeats any hero, no matter how overpowered the hero is, but to defeat the hero and look interesting, that is what has to be done to properly elevate the villain.

Of course, it doesn't have to be always like that, villains can also get casual wins and still be believable threats, and you mentioned **** like Killing Joke, and Batman is a fucking failure in that one, and **** like that happens, it just has to have a proper balance, 'cause if King makes every Diana villain be invincible with her barely scratching them, they'll go from jobbers to too overpowered, meaning boring in the opposite way.

Or at least that's how I see it.

That's a good way of putting it and something I feel a lot of writers fail at. The heroes we read about and especially Diana have seen so much and are so competent. Defeating them needs to take some creativity.

[WonderScott]

Sign me up for all the comments that mention that Diana and her villains needing to be shown as competent… the stakes need to raised for all of them to make things dramatic.

[WonderScott]

The thing I think is key of whether he gets Diana right is the avoidance of 2 things in his Batman run.

1. Avoiding her being broken. Thats really the issue with the portrayal of Batman, he focused too much on Bruce being fundamentally broken and unwell, which really is a reoccurring issue with Batman writers portraying him as this irreparably broken shell of a person but King did get pretty bad about it. His Superman and Supergirl avoided it because it was more preserving in the face of adversity or trauma in Supergirl's case. Like WoT does go into Supergirl's horrific origin watching all her friends, family, and entire world die but its used to showcase her strength of character because she doesn't let it completely dominate her. Meanwhile Catwoman leaves Bruce at the alter and he loses his fucking mind.

Which leads into 2. No Catwoman figure. Every writer has those characters that brings the worst out of them and Selina is King's. He was really obsessed with the Catwoman romance to the stories detriment and the result was various issues like Batman can only be happy when he's with Selina at basically the expense of the rest of his family or Selina becoming hypercompetent overpowered in the story to the point while Thomas Wayne can easily thrash the entire Batfam, Selina can easily thrash him despite how little sense that makes.

So if King can avoid portraying Diana as fundamentally damaged or having a creator's pet, we might avoid the worst excesses of his Batman run.

Plus since the book's not bi-monthly the pacing will prolly be better. King's Batman could be really glacial in pacing because he was contracted for a hundred issues and he obviously did not have enough story to fill in that many issues, especially on a 2 issue per month deadline leading him to drag things out to fit in the books. Hopefully the pacing will be healthier here.

I think Diana can be shown as “broken” at times as a hero as natural aspect of what happens, who it happens to, what she does and what’s that impact, but she’s fundamentally such a different character than Bruce, so I’d expect it’d play out with her in a ver different way. The “how” of how she pushes through it would be very different. Similar to how you described Superman and Supergirl dealing with it.

Diana doesn’t really have a Catwoman figure. I would be up for more romance and drama with Steve though, as we really haven’t seen that in a long time. It might be more interesting to show them together and the challenges they face at being a strong couple with Diana and Steve’s actions in the world.

I’m a Bat and Cat fan, so I enjoyed King’s exploration of and drama in their relationship. Giving Bruce some psychological and emotional challenges in admitting his love and caring for Selina “unbroke” him in a way, before she “broke” from him suddenly. “Broken” “engagements” all around. If they’re going to portray Joker and Riddler and other characters as masterminds and threats, Catwoman deserves at least as much cred, being a longtime foe and ally-in-conflict. I’ve long thought/said that Catwoman deserves to be a superb fighter and combatant alongside some of her other specific skills. You don’t survive in Gotham and challenge the likes of Batman, Nightwing and Batgirl without learning how to hold your own, physically and mentally. (At least that’s what I think about and like about her. She’s not perfect and neither is Batman.)

To bring it back around to Wonder Woman and Steve, it be great to see Steve challenged, grow and have an interesting character arc be King. He definitely could use his intel background to develop him in comparison/contrast to Diana. I’d love to see more of him in the field and what looks like when you’re a human, whose skills are just on the other side of becoming a costumed hero yourself, and you’re throwing down against Cheetah, Circe, Ares, Eros, Doctor Poison, Doctor Psycho, Doctor Cyber, Giganta, Hypnota, Inversion, Queen Clea, Kung, etc with your wondrous girlfriend. There’s an opportunity to tell a different style of Lois and Clark dynamic in the title.

[Vordan]

If Diana's fighting against the government does that mean she's opposing Steve/Etta in Checkmate or will they end up helping her from the inside?

Assuming King even cares about her supporting cast.

Are either of those two still military? I thought they both left. Rucka’s Etta is the one revamp he did that I grow more and more dissatisfied with. He left a great foundation with the rest of the Wonder Mythos, but with her he made a misstep.

[bardkeep]

I have read Supergirl WoT and Superman UitS and I see that the treatment is the same, it takes them out of the confines of space, surrounds them with new characters, with long and boring narratives.
What is good about it is that it understands and brings out the best in the characters, but to do so it is based on lowering their power and not surrounding them with their usual friends and villains.
If this is the tone that is expected for Wonder Woman, it is not what I like, I prefer its other kind of narrative like in Adam Stranger or Mr Miracle, but I do not see that that is the best for an ongoing series either.
By the way, those two mini series are a "copy" of what was already done by the master Messner Loebs at the beginning of his run in WW, in what is one of my favorite story arcs.

It sounds like the first arc is definitely gonna be more along the lines of WoT and UitS - he's said that it's gonna be pretty singularly Diana-focused - but it is an ongoing (whereas the other 2 are limited series) so he can't just do that forever. He also specifically cited WML as an example of a writer who's told great WW stories and I immediately knew he was talking about that first space pirates arc.

But honestly? I get that a lot of fans will be bothered but I'm very open to something like that to start out. The only post-Rebirth run that hasn't been afraid to get really "close" to Diana was Orlando's (even Rucka's Rebirth felt like it spent more time with Veronica Cale, Barbara, and Steve than Diana outside of Y1), and in the Cloonan/Conrad run she's kinda felt more like a participant than the emotional or narrative center of the book. I'm ready for a story that really feels like it's hers, and in general I'm just desperate for something that feels fresh.

I absolutely love TK's Mister Miracle, possibly in my top 5 comics of the last decade, but I can't think of any writers who have both the chops and understanding of the character to pull that kind of deconstruction off with WW. And as you said, it's not the move for an ongoing.

If Diana's fighting against the government does that mean she's opposing Steve/Etta in Checkmate or will they end up helping her from the inside?

Assuming King even cares about her supporting cast.

I would be so, so happy if everything with the Amazons vs. the law got Steve and Etta tf out of the ARGUS stuff, but I'd honestly rather they totally sideline them than keep them as military stooges that tether Diana to the government.

This is a HOT take, but if it's between a generic, uninspired arc that brings out Diana's entire supporting cast and rogues gallery and an arc with nothing but OCs that really understands what the character's about and tells a great, unique story...give me the latter, 10 times out of 10. As long as he doesn't retcon out her entire supporting cast and rogues gallery like Azzarello did (which he won't, since this isn't a hard reboot) I'm open to anything. A blend of the two is obviously ideal, but Cloonan and Conrad have really focused on highlighting her supporting cast and bringing in old villains and it's done absolutely nothing to improve their quality.

[Frontier]

Are either of those two still military? I thought they both left. Rucka’s Etta is the one revamp he did that I grow more and more dissatisfied with. He left a great foundation with the rest of the Wonder Mythos, but with her he made a misstep.

Is Checkmate military? That's what they were doing during Cloonan/Conrad's run.

I would be so, so happy if everything with the Amazons vs. the law got Steve and Etta tf out of the ARGUS stuff, but I'd honestly rather they totally sideline them than keep them as military stooges that tether Diana to the government.

This is a HOT take, but if it's between a generic, uninspired arc that brings out Diana's entire supporting cast and rogues gallery and an arc with nothing but OCs that really understands what the character's about and tells a great, unique story...give me the latter, 10 times out of 10. As long as he doesn't retcon out her entire supporting cast and rogues gallery like Azzarello did (which he won't, since this isn't a hard reboot) I'm open to anything. A blend of the two is obviously ideal, but Cloonan and Conrad have really focused on highlighting her supporting cast and bringing in old villains and it's done absolutely nothing to improve their quality.

I swear the prior run mentioned how they were both not working for Argus any more (is Argus even still a thing?) but I don't think they went that deeply into it.

[OBrianTallent]

It sounds like the first arc is definitely gonna be more along the lines of WoT and UitS - he's said that it's gonna be pretty singularly Diana-focused - but it is an ongoing (whereas the other 2 are limited series) so he can't just do that forever. He also specifically cited WML as an example of a writer who's told great WW stories and I immediately knew he was talking about that first space pirates arc.

But honestly? I get that a lot of fans will be bothered but I'm very open to something like that to start out. The only post-Rebirth run that hasn't been afraid to get really "close" to Diana was Orlando's (even Rucka's Rebirth felt like it spent more time with Veronica Cale, Barbara, and Steve than Diana outside of Y1), and in the Cloonan/Conrad run she's kinda felt more like a participant than the emotional or narrative center of the book. I'm ready for a story that really feels like it's hers, and in general I'm just desperate for something that feels fresh.

I absolutely love TK's Mister Miracle, possibly in my top 5 comics of the last decade, but I can't think of any writers who have both the chops and understanding of the character to pull that kind of deconstruction off with WW. And as you said, it's not the move for an ongoing.



I would be so, so happy if everything with the Amazons vs. the law got Steve and Etta tf out of the ARGUS stuff, but I'd honestly rather they totally sideline them than keep them as military stooges that tether Diana to the government.

This is a HOT take, but if it's between a generic, uninspired arc that brings out Diana's entire supporting cast and rogues gallery and an arc with nothing but OCs that really understands what the character's about and tells a great, unique story...give me the latter, 10 times out of 10. As long as he doesn't retcon out her entire supporting cast and rogues gallery like Azzarello did (which he won't, since this isn't a hard reboot) I'm open to anything. A blend of the two is obviously ideal, but Cloonan and Conrad have really focused on highlighting her supporting cast and bringing in old villains and it's done absolutely nothing to improve their quality.

The problem with Wonder Woman is literally for decades we have had stories that every single time a new creator has come onto the book, they have jettisoned the prior cast. Even WML started over with a completely new supporting cast and then when he left, he took his cast with him (not really, but you get the idea.) Then John Byrne came on then Eric Luke came on, then we got Phil Jimenez....granted it's not always the writer's fault as I have mentioned before, several writers noted they were specifically told to not bring anyone from the previous runs. We get to a point though where a book needs a grounding, the normal guys, someone the reader can relate to. If those keep changing, it makes it harder for readers to find themselves in the stories. When someone takes over a Superman book they dont jettison Lois and Jimmy and Perry. Same with Batman...well, they did kill off Alfred (still think that was a huge mistake.)
Even if Steve and Etta are working with military or paramilitary, there's no reason they can't still be a positive part of the story. It can help with conflict both internal and external as they have to weigh what they do with and for or against Diana or the government. I agree I would rather have an excellent story over a poor one with the same cast, but it is more than possible to make an excellent story with her cast and that is something the writer (King) should be able to manage. If Diana is taking a stand against the government, Steve and Etta absolutely should be a part of that story even if they are moral support. Taking them out of the story to insert original characters is a sign of sloppy and poor writing.

[HotBoy]

Did anyone else get the Daniel Sampere Lazarus Planet Wonder Woman variant? I did it. And it is absolutely stunning!

Here's Daniel showing it off: https://twitter.com/Sampere_art/stat...30903397982209

[OBrianTallent]

Did anyone else get the Daniel Sampere Lazarus Planet Wonder Woman variant? I did it. And it is absolutely stunning!

Here's Daniel showing it off: https://twitter.com/Sampere_art/stat...30903397982209

That's the ONE thing I am not concerned about at all....this book will look glorious.

[Gaius]

Is Checkmate military? That's what they were doing during Cloonan/Conrad's run.

I swear the prior run mentioned how they were both not working for Argus any more (is Argus even still a thing?) but I don't think they went that deeply into it.

Argus was removed with that Bendis Leviathan event (along with most of DC's other spy/spy-like organizations). I can't exactly recall what/who they work for now.

Personally at this rate I echo Bardkeep, I'm willing to go with any WW story so long as it's decently written and Diana's in-character. The real work elevating the WW mythos is being done with stuff like Historia which we won't see in mainline books.

[HotBoy]

That's the ONE thing I am not concerned about at all....this book will look glorious.

Daniel Sampere draws a magnificent "lasso in action."

[DABellWrites]

The difference is just that when in doubt, you can just riff on BTAS Batman or Donner Superman. No one's gonna complain about a Superman story where he's just an impossibly nice, wholesome guy who can do anything. Every version of Wonder Woman is completely different and there's no go-to characterization. Some people are hardcore Marston purists, some are all Lynda Carter nostalgia, some are firm on the Perez blueprint, some are into the n52/Zack Snyder warrior thing, and all of those versions have completely different supporting casts, personalities, values, powers/weapons, origins, etc. People aren't just looking for different nuances, they're looking for totally different characters, and some of them are such extreme deviations that they're impossible to reconcile with the others.

I cringe whenever I see Donner nostalgia in Superman. Not that I dislike what Richard Donner did in the movie (I did dislike many things, but that's not relevant), but it shows me that Superman can't out run nostalgia. The vast majority of his adaptations are nostalgic. While Batman had a steady supply of recent adaptations. Superman's only two modern solo live-action movies are old. Superman Returns will hit twenty-years in 2025. Man of Steel twelve. Superman is trying to outrace nostalgia and trying to keep relevant, but I don't see him winning. Superman 1978 is going to defeat him. And, I think the majority of Superman fans are okay with it. They'll be okay with their 1978, post-crisis, Smallville Superman.

I think beyond that he just sorted out his take on the character. He didn't really seem to know what to do with her before, but his most recent shot at WW was the Mod Era story he wrote in 2021 and it makes a lot of sense in hindsight - he didn't make her an Emma Peel type, he made her a free-spirited hippie and contrasted her with a more uptight, law-abiding Clark (also the Doc Shaner art is glorious). It's an exaggerated, stylized version of his take on the characters, but it's definitely consistent with everything he's said in recent interviews.

Makes you wonder what'll he'll do with Steve Trevor.



Anyway, I really hope he pulls off what he's trying to do and makes something really great. It could easily wind up being a swing and a miss but as I've said, I really like the stuff of his that I've read and everything he's been saying has me feeling really optimistic. He's honestly in the best position since Perez to create a definitive version of the character - tons of fresh eyes are gonna be on this run plus he's one of the architects of the new movie/TV universe.[/QUOTE]

I gagged. Diana read him. It wasn't shade, but shade came from reading. And I live. LOL!

How was that shade? am I missing something?