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  1. #61
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardkeep View Post
    Yeah, I think there are ways to build his senses into basic game mechanics.
    Yeah, Batman style "detective mode" and Spidey's "radio" stuff would serve well enough for the super-senses. Add in some infrared, and a telescopic "zoom in/out" option and you're basically there. There's no need for Clark's senses to be at "what pretty DNA you have!" levels. I want a fully powered and powerful Superman, but not a Silver Age plot device.

    Yeah, I think the bigger issues emerge because some people are really insistent that you don't nerf him and want to do some kind of city health bar instead of an individual one, which is totally unfeasible and just doesn't sound fun
    Returns did that and it was awful. I'm one of those folks insisting he isn't nerfed and turned into a generic video game character and I support alternative parameters for mission success/failure, but on the old game thread I made the mistake of using Returns as an example of what *a* mission *might* look like with different success/failure parameters, then for several pages had to try to explain that I didn't want another Returns, I just wanted more variety in the kinds of missions you can do and how you get through them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    If we’re setting it in Metropolis then most of the “mooks” should be part of the three gangs which have been created in Superman comics and each given their own theme as it were.
    Agreed. Split the gangs up by borough, give them each different mechanics and abilities and, I say, level ranges. That way you can get an idea of how difficult an area is just by looking at what kind of trash mobs are wandering around. Maybe the 100 are the lowest level gang, so you know you're pretty safe in their territory and will be mostly fighting guys with pistols and Molotov cocktails (little chance of physical defeat) with the occasional tougher foe or mini boss using some street magic (higher chance of physical defeat). Maybe the Invisible Mafia is your mid-range threat, where you know more trash mobs will have a chance of defeating you but it's not much to worry about unless you get stupid, and the tougher foes and mini bosses are folks like Red Mist, where they can put up a solid fight but probably have some kind of Achilles' heel you can exploit to drop them quickly. Then you use Intergang for your high-end zone, where most of them are using high-grade weapons and even the trash mobs can be a problem if you're not careful.

    Then you just work the main story through the city appropriately. When you start the game you're in the Slums, where your low level and inexperience as a player makes those trash mobs more challenging than they should be. Mid-game, you're working through zones controlled by the Invisible Mafia, so you've got a solid grasp on the mechanics and you've earned some levels and skill points (or whatever progression system) but the foes are a little tougher too, so you're still not just steamrolling everything. Endgame you're dealing with Intergang, and it's a good thing you've got those skill points and hours of playtime because the trash mobs are much more dangerous.

    Just something like that, I think, would provide a challenge for players while still making Superman feel like Superman. And since we're talking open world, and presumably you can go anywhere at any time, you can always quest in a different area if you want more or less of a challenge, but don't want to change the entire difficulty setting.

    And I need some world bosses scattered around the map too. Maybe Titano is hanging around on top of the LexCorp building, and you can go fight him whenever you want....but he's a world boss, so if you're not high level and/or really, really good with the combat system you'll just get your ass kicked. DCUO does that, and it's a jumpscare when you walk around a corner in a level 12 zone only to find the level 30 Bizarro hanging around, just waiting for some noob player to get into aggro range.
    Last edited by Ascended; 05-06-2023 at 02:14 PM.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  2. #62
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    I still favor setting the first Superman game outside of Metropolis simply because

    1. Casuals need to see other areas of Superman lore they’re not familiar with, and Superman has some great alternate locations for a game
    2. That Suicide Squad game looks like **** and is using Metropolis (pisses me off but what can you do?).

    Better to put some distance between Superman and what looks like another flop.
    For when my rants on the forums just aren’t enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  3. #63
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I don't think a game "has" to be set in Metropolis, but it *is* part of the expected "Superman experience" and most of his cast and rogues are there.

    Of course, nothing says the game has to be in a single setting/place either. You could start in Metropolis for the tutorial/learning curve stuff and then go elsewhere.

    Always loved Final Fantasy 6, and how the story changes halfway through. You start by trying to stop the villain and save the world, only to fail and spend the back half of the game in a ruined dystopia, seeking revenge. I think something along those lines might make for a fun Super game.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  4. #64
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I don't think a game "has" to be set in Metropolis, but it *is* part of the expected "Superman experience" and most of his cast and rogues are there.

    Of course, nothing says the game has to be in a single setting/place either. You could start in Metropolis for the tutorial/learning curve stuff and then go elsewhere.

    Always loved Final Fantasy 6, and how the story changes halfway through. You start by trying to stop the villain and save the world, only to fail and spend the back half of the game in a ruined dystopia, seeking revenge. I think something along those lines might make for a fun Super game.
    Well, DCUO has you start in Metropolis(or Gotham, if you're bat adjacent, yes this means WW mentor characters start in Metropolis and WW is basically at a Themiscyran embassy) and there's at least a dozen open-world maps to look around in that you later get access to. some are... variants of other world maps. Like you have the regular Washington DC map, and a damaged version from after the evil Batmen from alternate universes showed up. But there's New Genesis, Titans island, Themiscyra, Atlantis, Coast City, Dakota City, Hmm... Lemme check in the Orrery of Worlds.... This list is in "tiers" because the stuff has ascending difficulty. Which is also the order it was added in.

    Tier 1/2:
    Stryker's Island: it sort of exists in the main map, but this is a more detailed version.
    Central City:
    Gotham Wastelands: now with 100% more Trigon.
    Ranx Command Center: This is actually tied to the version of Metropolis with the GL vs Sinestro Corps stuff.
    Gotham under Siege: This is related to Typhon's invasion of Earth. It actually has Circe send an army of Harpies and Minotaurs to help WW and the Amazons.

    Tier 3-4:
    New Genesis: pretty much what you'd expect, but mostly just the relaxing scenery of New Genesis.... if you're a villain you actually have Kalibak and the Parademons on your side... the actual enemies are "Dreggs"... kinda like zombie New Gods.
    Doomed Metropolis: Doomsday is back and... infectious. this is a rather small part of Central Metropolis
    Typhon's Monster invasion: this time you fight Typhon's forces in a different area of Gotham
    War-Torn Village: travel back in time to WW2 and fight in the war... against Vandal Savage.
    Time Torn Area 51: Yeah related to the previous one. But the present with bad guys from the PAST.
    Amusement mile's Gang war: Gotham, but with even more killer clowns.
    Earth 3 Gotham: yeah, CSA Earth.

    Tier 5:
    Central City Starro Deluge Zone: yeah, Central City... infested with Starros.
    Titans Dock: not a large map, just the outside area of the tower and island it's on.
    Atlantis: fully underwater map.
    Chaos Gotham: Some magic stuff related to justice League Dark is attacking Gotham
    Metal Gotham City: something related to the Tenth Metal story is trying to take over Gotham.
    Thanagar: The planet Hawkman and Hawkgirl are from... you go here as part of the Tenth Metal stuff because Barbatos is trying to take over the place.
    BoP: Metropolis: main Metropolis has a bunch of buildings inside Brainiac forcefields.... this one doesn't. It's not really the whole city though.

    Tier 6:
    Patchwork Themiscyra: It's Themiscyra as a persistent open-world and not just an episode map
    31st century: New Earth: Legion of Superheroes future.
    Flashpoint Gotham: small area of Gotham, but no Brainiac domes.
    Washington DC: the non-destroyed one
    Deathmetal Washington DC: the destroyed one
    Infernal Khandaq: Khandaq was previously in queue and story missions, but now it's open world too.

    so... if we take out the dupes... that's still a LOT... also some of the "Gotham" open world maps, such as Earth 3 Gotham... are actually parts of Gotham NOT in the regular map at all. Oh and the game has a bunch of places you can go to that aren't proper lingering open world maps and thus not on this list... like Apokalips, and Zamaron... among others.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    I still favor setting the first Superman game outside of Metropolis simply because

    1. Casuals need to see other areas of Superman lore they’re not familiar with, and Superman has some great alternate locations for a game
    2. That Suicide Squad game looks like **** and is using Metropolis (pisses me off but what can you do?).

    Better to put some distance between Superman and what looks like another flop.
    Or space. Mix up the many planet thrown in pre-crisis and post-crisis for something special. Have Superman in Metropolis in the second half of the game. If players want the full Superman experience on Earth, I guess the best thing there is it have a gauge pop up on the screen in how hard to make Superman fly, run, or punch. So if you fly too fast, it's game over because you wrecked Metropolis. Though I think my other ideas are better than a gauge.

  6. #66
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    My suggestion was a "hold back" ability you could toggle on or off. It'd basically switch the environments from indestructible to breakable.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    My suggestion was a "hold back" ability you could toggle on or off. It'd basically switch the environments from indestructible to breakable.
    I thought about something like that. It could be a "Clark Kent" mode where you can't destroy environment things, or just in general be spotted using super powers.

  8. #68
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    My idea was to do both, actually.

    I figured you'd have the "hold back" toggle available at all times, allowing you to adjust your approach as you go.

    Maybe having the toggle on not only stops you from destroying the environment but also reduces your damage output (but gives you a boost somewhere else), so you need to do a little risk assessment with each encounter and decide how hardcore you need to go? And you'd be able to toggle it in the middle of a fight too, as needed.

    ....in my head this was also tied into a "reputation" metric I had envisioned, where your rewards, quest lines, and NPC interactions are partially based on where you stand in a "Golden Age Outlaw <---> Donner Savior" spectrum (think Fable). With that idea, collateral damage would slide you towards "Outlaw" so the toggle, and the destruction it'd prevent you from causing, would have play style and game experience implications.

    But I also figured you'd need some "Clark Kent" moments in the game too, where you're in disguise investigating stuff. We want the full experience right? Superman's victories are brighter when Clark's struggled through the darkness for them. That could be done in cinematics, and maybe it should be, but I thought some "Clark" play time would ultimately be a good switch-up and help things from getting repetitive.

    I figure you'd still have all your powers as "Clark" but you can't be caught using them, something like that maybe. Insomniac's Spider-Man does those "stealth/investigate" missions in the middle of the story and players didn't seem to enjoy those, so I was thinking you'd do the "Clark" stuff as part of a Daily Planet faction. That way the player decides if and when they do the Clark stuff, which will earn them unique faction-specific rewards.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  9. #69
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    I played Ogre Battle for SNES and N64 and I loved the reputation meter. I briefly mentioned something earlier along these lines before, but I'd like to see a Superman game where death is super rare and whatever good or bad choices you made influenced how the story progressed. If you blow your secret ID, so be it. If you kept it intact, you get "rewarded" with a different story scenario.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    My idea was to do both, actually.

    I figured you'd have the "hold back" toggle available at all times, allowing you to adjust your approach as you go.

    Maybe having the toggle on not only stops you from destroying the environment but also reduces your damage output (but gives you a boost somewhere else), so you need to do a little risk assessment with each encounter and decide how hardcore you need to go? And you'd be able to toggle it in the middle of a fight too, as needed.

    ....in my head this was also tied into a "reputation" metric I had envisioned, where your rewards, quest lines, and NPC interactions are partially based on where you stand in a "Golden Age Outlaw <---> Donner Savior" spectrum (think Fable). With that idea, collateral damage would slide you towards "Outlaw" so the toggle, and the destruction it'd prevent you from causing, would have play style and game experience implications.

    But I also figured you'd need some "Clark Kent" moments in the game too, where you're in disguise investigating stuff. We want the full experience right? Superman's victories are brighter when Clark's struggled through the darkness for them. That could be done in cinematics, and maybe it should be, but I thought some "Clark" play time would ultimately be a good switch-up and help things from getting repetitive.

    I figure you'd still have all your powers as "Clark" but you can't be caught using them, something like that maybe. Insomniac's Spider-Man does those "stealth/investigate" missions in the middle of the story and players didn't seem to enjoy those, so I was thinking you'd do the "Clark" stuff as part of a Daily Planet faction. That way the player decides if and when they do the Clark stuff, which will earn them unique faction-specific rewards.
    A fun gameplay mechanic/storytelling angle that could add to this could be integrating Lois into it in all sorts of ways. Maybe if you get too obvious using Superman powers while dressed as Clark, and if you don't choose the right dialogue options with Lois, she reveals your secret in a non-standard game over. Or maybe Clark can figure out that Lois deduced his secret long ago, and she can be "recruited" as a mission giver thanks to her investigations which she'd otherwise keep from him.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  11. #71
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    I am a fan of the God of War saga, with Kratos I have killed countless gods but I have also died from time to time because of common wolves, and nothing happens, because I understand that one thing is the story and another the gameplay, So could someone please explain to me why Superman's power is a problem.

  12. #72
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaVi View Post
    I am a fan of the God of War saga, with Kratos I have killed countless gods but I have also died from time to time because of common wolves, and nothing happens, because I understand that one thing is the story and another the gameplay, So could someone please explain to me why Superman's power is a problem.
    I'm 100% in the camp that if I'm going to play a Superman game, I want it to have some aspect of Superman simulation. Like, yeah, the Taito arcade game was fun, but it's not a particularly special beat-em-up from the era, nor does it really do a good job of simulating Superman the way another beat-em-up like TMNT does. The holy grail of superhero video games is the one that minimizes compromise between Superman simulation and good gameplay. If you just want a good game, you could slap on Superman stuff into it but I think that's a level of settling I'd rather avoid.

    We've had a handful of decent or even good games that featured Superman but I think they all left something to be desired in the simulation aspect. So for me, it's either do more of the same or find a way to raise the bar. I'm willing to wait.

  13. #73
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    A fun gameplay mechanic/storytelling angle that could add to this could be integrating Lois into it in all sorts of ways. Maybe if you get too obvious using Superman powers while dressed as Clark, and if you don't choose the right dialogue options with Lois, she reveals your secret in a non-standard game over. Or maybe Clark can figure out that Lois deduced his secret long ago, and she can be "recruited" as a mission giver thanks to her investigations which she'd otherwise keep from him.
    Lois absolutely needs to be a big factor in the game, somehow. I figured she'd be good as a non-standard follower, who doesn't engage in combat but provides alternative benefits (like increased reputation gains perhaps?). She could be a primary mission giver, though that feels more like a "Perry" thing to me honestly. And whatever your core story is, Lois needs to play a strong role in that of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by NaVi View Post
    I am a fan of the God of War saga, with Kratos I have killed countless gods but I have also died from time to time because of common wolves, and nothing happens, because I understand that one thing is the story and another the gameplay, So could someone please explain to me why Superman's power is a problem.
    It seems to be a matter of reputation and audience expectation. Kratos had/has no profile outside of the games; no decades-long string of shows, films, etc. to tell audiences what he's about and what he can do. So his setting can be anything, his threats can be anything, and there's no expectation to push against.

    Superman is another matter. That name comes with expectations. When someone sits down to play a Superman game, they're expecting to feel like the character. Past games have failed to do that, because conventional gaming wisdom is that you should be threatened, however marginally, by a "wolf." But audiences know that Superman doesn't get taken down like that. Ergo, the player never truly feels like Superman while playing a Superman game and it leaves them dissatisfied.

    But don't take my word for it. Read some old reviews. Not "every" review ever complains about this stuff, but plenty of them do.

    We've never had a successful Super game, but we've had a *lot* of failed ones. If we don't learn the lessons those failures taught us, we'll never get a good game. Players want to feel like Superman when they play a Super game, just as they want to feel like Spidey or Bats when playing one of their games. They won't get that when a random dude kills them, regardless of whatever in-game excuse is offered. We know this, because older games tried it and people didn't like it.

    Is it not telling that so many people say the best Superman game was Lego Batman? Shouldn't that be a real big hint that "killed by wolves" isn't gonna fly?
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  14. #74
    Extraordinary Member Prime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Lois absolutely needs to be a big factor in the game, somehow. I figured she'd be good as a non-standard follower, who doesn't engage in combat but provides alternative benefits (like increased reputation gains perhaps?). She could be a primary mission giver, though that feels more like a "Perry" thing to me honestly. And whatever your core story is, Lois needs to play a strong role in that of course.



    It seems to be a matter of reputation and audience expectation. Kratos had/has no profile outside of the games; no decades-long string of shows, films, etc. to tell audiences what he's about and what he can do. So his setting can be anything, his threats can be anything, and there's no expectation to push against.

    Superman is another matter. That name comes with expectations. When someone sits down to play a Superman game, they're expecting to feel like the character. Past games have failed to do that, because conventional gaming wisdom is that you should be threatened, however marginally, by a "wolf." But audiences know that Superman doesn't get taken down like that. Ergo, the player never truly feels like Superman while playing a Superman game and it leaves them dissatisfied.

    But don't take my word for it. Read some old reviews. Not "every" review ever complains about this stuff, but plenty of them do.

    We've never had a successful Super game, but we've had a *lot* of failed ones. If we don't learn the lessons those failures taught us, we'll never get a good game. Players want to feel like Superman when they play a Super game, just as they want to feel like Spidey or Bats when playing one of their games. They won't get that when a random dude kills them, regardless of whatever in-game excuse is offered. We know this, because older games tried it and people didn't like it.

    Is it not telling that so many people say the best Superman game was Lego Batman? Shouldn't that be a real big hint that "killed by wolves" isn't gonna fly?
    I think you are thinking to much of it. In DBZ Kakarot Goku could destroy cities if he wanted to as well according to his power level. But he just simply doesn’t do it. Game mechanic and the player doesn’t question it.

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime View Post
    I think you are thinking to much of it. In DBZ Kakarot Goku could destroy cities if he wanted to as well according to his power level. But he just simply doesn’t do it. Game mechanic and the player doesn’t question it.
    This raises a question: do you want your game to be modeled after other good/successful games, or do you want to try to do things a little differently and give the player additional flexibility and freedom? There's no right answer but there's merit either way.

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