Golly, Iris! Sorry I'm late! The Flash (Barry Allen) Appreciation 2023

[bat39]

Wally West is a character from the Barry Allen Flash mythos.

The Silver Age Flash and Green Lantern were clean reboots, separate from the Golden Age versions. Wally's Flash series was a sequel to Barry's Flash series, with his history as the former Flash's sidekick at the forefront.

This.

I appreciate that the Speed Force, and a lot of other characters, concepts and ideas were introduced during Wally's run. But Wally's run was a continuation of Barry's run. It was building upon the foundations that Barry established.

[Refrax5]

I would say modern Flash mythos is undoubtedly rooted in what Wally established these days far more than what Barry did. If you want to say Hal is mythology defining character because of the GL Corps, Wally certainly takes the cake with the Speed Force as far as mythology. Though Barry originated a lot of other things besides mythos.

As far as the Speed Force, yes. But the costume, the Rogues, Reverse Flash and even Wally himself came from Barry. I'm not trying to diminish Wally. I like Wally. But Barry is incredibly significant not just to the Flash, but to superhero comics in general. His creation essentially revived the superhero genre, which was almost dead.

[Refrax5]

Yeah honestly, if it makes sense for any characters to remember other timelines/realities, its the Flashes. It kinda goes with the territory



Bruce, Clark and Diana are a rung above Barry and Hal when it comes to their timelessness. With Flash and GL, it's the mantles that survived the Golden Age, not the original characters. Barry and Hal themselves are not the originals.

That said, the Flash and GL mythos and franchises as we know them are built largely on the backs of Barry and Hal. The entire GLC mythos, which John, Kyle, Guy, Jessica, Simon etc. are all part of started with Hal. The Flash mythos that Wally, Bart, Ace etc. are part of started with Barry (though on the Flash side, they've done a better job retrofitting Jay into the larger mythos than the GL side has done with Hal...it helps that Jay has a presence of sorts in Barry's very first issue).

And nostalgia is not necessarily a bad thing. It tends to be circular in pop-culture anyway, and especially in Big Two superhero comics. Barry coming back may be Silver Age nostalgia, but Wally's recent return is also Modern Age nostalgia. Hell, Jay's return in the 60's and the start of the Multiverse was Golden Age nostalgia!

They've also done a lot to modernize Barry, for better or worse, to make him a viable character in today's landscape, and the CW show has been a big part of that. Remember, Flash's big Post-Crisis reboot was Wally West taking the mantle, allowing Barry to remain this figure of Silver Age nostalgia. It's only in the past decade, with Barry's return that they've had to finally reinvent him the way his other Jusice League peers were back in the 80's...

I don't consider timelessness as being reliant on how popular or mainstream a character is. Like I said, I think Tony Stark as Iron Man is timeless, too, even before the movies. I've always been uneasy with the idea of destroying classic characters to put someone else in their costume and calling it a progression. Even as a kid growing up with legacy characters that I very much liked, it always felt disrespectful.

And like I said, my affection for Barry and Hal wasn't nostalgia and I think that's somewhat unfair to write it off as such. I was reading Kyle and Wally in the main books at the same time as being introduced to Hal and Barry in stuff like JLA Year One and Brave and the Bold and I just liked the latter more because of who they were. So to me, Barry coming back was less about nostalgia and more just about seeing a character I like getting the spotlight after years of fans and creators calling him boring and antiquated.

[Buried Alien]

I don't consider timelessness as being reliant on how popular or mainstream a character is. Like I said, I think Tony Stark as Iron Man is timeless, too, even before the movies. I've always been uneasy with the idea of destroying classic characters to put someone else in their costume and calling it a progression. Even as a kid growing up with legacy characters that I very much liked, it always felt disrespectful.

And like I said, my affection for Barry and Hal wasn't nostalgia and I think that's somewhat unfair to write it off as such. I was reading Kyle and Wally in the main books at the same time as being introduced to Hal and Barry in stuff like JLA Year One and Brave and the Bold and I just liked the latter more because of who they were. So to me, Barry coming back was less about nostalgia and more just about seeing a character I like getting the spotlight after years of fans and creators calling him boring and antiquated.

Not only that, but when Barry and Hal were first removed from the scene in the 80s and 90s, it wasn't done in response to fan demand or with fan consent. DC wasn't receiving tons of letters from fans complaining that Barry and Hal were boring and demanding replacements. The changes happened without fan demand or consent, but fortunately for DC, fans (for the most part) took to the replacement characters and accepted them. It was never foreordained that it would have worked out that way. Barry and Hal could have carried their franchises through the 80s and 90s if DC had decided to take that path. There was nothing innately wrong with or incompatible about those characters that would have made them unviable for the times when they were absent.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Lee]

Not only that, when Barry and Hal were first removed from the scene in the 80s and 90s, it wasn't done in response to fan demand or with fan consent. DC wasn't receiving tons of letters from fans complaining that Barry and Hal were boring and demanding replacements. The changes happened without fan demand or consent, but fortunately for DC, fans (for the most part) took to the replacement characters and accepted them. It was never foreordained that it would have worked out that way. Barry and Hal could have carried their franchises through the 80s and 90s if DC had decided to take that path. There was nothing innately wrong with or incompatible about those characters that would have made them unviable for the times when they were absent.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

In the case of The Flash, DC kind of just gave up on the series. Sales weren't as strong as they used to be, so they decided to cancel it kill the character. At the time of cancellation Cary Bates had been writing the series for 14 years and Carmine Infantino had been back on art duties for over 4 years. Infantino's art wasn't as strong as his first run, and it was quite old fashioned looking compared to other titles at the time, but DC didn't consider trying out a new artist, or even a new writer.

It wasn't even a case of "Let's freshen the book up with a new lead character", since there was an almost 2 year gap between the end of Barry's series and the start of Wally's series (and over 1 year between Crisis on Infinite Earths #12 and the start of Wally's Flash series).

[Refrax5]

Not only that, when Barry and Hal were first removed from the scene in the 80s and 90s, it wasn't done in response to fan demand or with fan consent. DC wasn't receiving tons of letters from fans complaining that Barry and Hal were boring and demanding replacements. The changes happened without fan demand or consent, but fortunately for DC, fans (for the most part) took to the replacement characters and accepted them. It was never foreordained that it would have worked out that way. Barry and Hal could have carried their franchises through the 80s and 90s if DC had decided to take that path. There was nothing innately wrong with or incompatible about those characters that would have made them unviable for the times when they were absent.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

That's a good point. And I don't want to start the same old fan debates because I like Wally (and Bart and Jay) and Kyle and John. They're all great characters, honestly. We all have different characters that we prefer and that resonate with us and I don't want to see anyone lose their favorite, you know?

[Tomkatie]

Does it apply to their significant others and kids, even when those significant others are not speedsters?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

It's weird, cuz I dunno if the "speedsters are immune to timeline changes" is as ubiquitous across the Flash Family as people have been saying?

We know for sure that Barry, Wally, and Bart are "unmoored" from timeline changes so far, so Barry and Wally should remember pre-Crisis to now while Bart should remember post-Crisis to now (idk if Bart counts pre-Crisis?). The rest of the Flash Fam though is much more questionable.

Iris and Linda both remember post-Crisis continuity, and Iris might remember pre-Crisis, but that'll probably never be clarified because Daniel West exists and Ira West is a tangled web of time travel nonsense.

Jay might remember pre-Crisis, he should definitely remember post-Crisis, but I haven't been keeping up with Geoff Johns' corner of the DCU, so please anyone correct me if I'm wrong.

Jesse Quick seems to remember post-Crisis continuity up to the birth of her child? Which doesn't make sense, since she was stuck in the Speed Force from Flashpoint until Finish Line, but maybe her child only being born right before Flashpoint messed something up? Really not sure, she's where everyone's favorite "everything happened, so pick and choose whatever" DC mandate comes into play.

Max Mercury's the best bet to remember everything, since he's the Speed Force guru. That being said, there's been no confirmation because he's shown up only in Finish Line and One Minute War so far. Maybe he and Impulse will get a mini coming up to clarify? (por favor)

Then there's Wallace West. Ace not only remembers New 52 exclusively, he knows he didn't exist in the post-Crisis timeline. I dunno where that fits in here, but holy hell get this kid some therapy

[Tomkatie]

I'm only half sorry for reviving the "reboot memory" topic of discussion that I know was everyone's favorite

[bat39]

In the case of The Flash, DC kind of just gave up on the series. Sales weren't as strong as they used to be, so they decided to cancel it kill the character. At the time of cancellation Cary Bates had been writing the series for 14 years and Carmine Infantino had been back on art duties for over 4 years. Infantino's art wasn't as strong as his first run, and it was quite old fashioned looking compared to other titles at the time, but DC didn't consider trying out a new artist, or even a new writer.

It wasn't even a case of "Let's freshen the book up with a new lead character", since there was an almost 2 year gap between the end of Barry's series and the start of Wally's series (and over 1 year between Crisis on Infinite Earths #12 and the start of Wally's Flash series).

True enough.

I still maintain though that Wally essentially became the Post-Crisis Flash 'reboot'. Superman got MOS. Batman got Year One. Wonder Woman got the Perez run. GL got Emerald Dawn. Flash got the Baron run starring Wally (to be followed by Waid's run, and so on).

It's only once Barry returned in 2009-10 that he personally needed to get a modern reinvention.

It's weird, cuz I dunno if the "speedsters are immune to timeline changes" is as ubiquitous across the Flash Family as people have been saying?

We know for sure that Barry, Wally, and Bart are "unmoored" from timeline changes so far, so Barry and Wally should remember pre-Crisis to now while Bart should remember post-Crisis to now (idk if Bart counts pre-Crisis?). The rest of the Flash Fam though is much more questionable.

Iris and Linda both remember post-Crisis continuity, and Iris might remember pre-Crisis, but that'll probably never be clarified because Daniel West exists and Ira West is a tangled web of time travel nonsense.

Jay might remember pre-Crisis, he should definitely remember post-Crisis, but I haven't been keeping up with Geoff Johns' corner of the DCU, so please anyone correct me if I'm wrong.

Jesse Quick seems to remember post-Crisis continuity up to the birth of her child? Which doesn't make sense, since she was stuck in the Speed Force from Flashpoint until Finish Line, but maybe her child only being born right before Flashpoint messed something up? Really not sure, she's where everyone's favorite "everything happened, so pick and choose whatever" DC mandate comes into play.

Max Mercury's the best bet to remember everything, since he's the Speed Force guru. That being said, there's been no confirmation because he's shown up only in Finish Line and One Minute War so far. Maybe he and Impulse will get a mini coming up to clarify? (por favor)

Then there's Wallace West. Ace not only remembers New 52 exclusively, he knows he didn't exist in the post-Crisis timeline. I dunno where that fits in here, but holy hell get this kid some therapy

I don't think Barry and Wally necessarily remember Pre-Crisis. Barry might have remembered it while he was in the Speed Force after his death, but it's likely he only remembers the Post-Crisis timeline since his resurrection. In Flash Rebirth, he remembers rescuing Jay from Keystone City being put in Limbo, rather than traveling to Earth 2. Hell, in Flash Rebirth, he only remembers a timeline where his mom was killed...so if he remembered Pre-Crisis, he would remember a reality where she was alive.

Also, when we see Wally in the Speed Force during the Rebirth special, he remembers the Post-Crisis timeline. IIRC, didn't he remember Wallace too? At least back then, I guess the idea was that Wallace existed even before Flashpoint...he just wasn't a speedster.

Post-Crisis is the base on which the current continuity is built. The conceit is that Flashpoint messed with the Post-Crisis timeline, and then Rebirth fixed it...to an extent.

[Digifiend]

It's weird, cuz I dunno if the "speedsters are immune to timeline changes" is as ubiquitous across the Flash Family as people have been saying?

We know for sure that Barry, Wally, and Bart are "unmoored" from timeline changes so far, so Barry and Wally should remember pre-Crisis to now while Bart should remember post-Crisis to now (idk if Bart counts pre-Crisis?). The rest of the Flash Fam though is much more questionable.

Iris and Linda both remember post-Crisis continuity, and Iris might remember pre-Crisis, but that'll probably never be clarified because Daniel West exists and Ira West is a tangled web of time travel nonsense.

Jay might remember pre-Crisis, he should definitely remember post-Crisis, but I haven't been keeping up with Geoff Johns' corner of the DCU, so please anyone correct me if I'm wrong.

Jesse Quick seems to remember post-Crisis continuity up to the birth of her child? Which doesn't make sense, since she was stuck in the Speed Force from Flashpoint until Finish Line, but maybe her child only being born right before Flashpoint messed something up? Really not sure, she's where everyone's favorite "everything happened, so pick and choose whatever" DC mandate comes into play.

Max Mercury's the best bet to remember everything, since he's the Speed Force guru. That being said, there's been no confirmation because he's shown up only in Finish Line and One Minute War so far. Maybe he and Impulse will get a mini coming up to clarify? (por favor)

Then there's Wallace West. Ace not only remembers New 52 exclusively, he knows he didn't exist in the post-Crisis timeline. I dunno where that fits in here, but holy hell get this kid some therapy

Bart wasn't born yet pre-Crisis but would be the grandson of pre-Crisis Iris, so while he is technically part of pre-Crisis continuity, no he wouldn't remember it.

Wasn't Jesse pregnant when Flashpoint happened, and the kid was born in Convergeance? That would explain it - it would mean being trapped in the Speed Force killed the baby.

[NeathBlue]

In the case of The Flash, DC kind of just gave up on the series. Sales weren't as strong as they used to be, so they decided to cancel it kill the character. At the time of cancellation Cary Bates had been writing the series for 14 years and Carmine Infantino had been back on art duties for over 4 years. Infantino's art wasn't as strong as his first run, and it was quite old fashioned looking compared to other titles at the time, but DC didn't consider trying out a new artist, or even a new writer.

It wasn't even a case of "Let's freshen the book up with a new lead character", since there was an almost 2 year gap between the end of Barry's series and the start of Wally's series (and over 1 year between Crisis on Infinite Earths #12 and the start of Wally's Flash series).

Sales dropped because for some reason deadlines weren’t being hit with regards storylines not being ready… The Trial of The Flash storyline went on for what seemed an eternity from when Zoom was killed up to the eventual finale.
COIE’S was the worst thing DC ever did imo… It allowed writers to become lazy with new storylines not having any connections to the past, the treatment Hal and Barry received was nothing short of criminal, seeing as both and especially Barry, were probably the only reason comic books survived like they did.
Making Wally look almost identical was also a big mistake, it took away any real individuality of the character, and as others have said, it was just a continuation of Barry’s character in many ways.

[Tzigone]

COIE’S was the worst thing DC ever did imo… It allowed writers to become lazy with new storylines not having any connections to the past

I definitely think COIE had bad long-term effects. I don't know enough about the economic/business situation to know if DC could have survived/thrived without it.

It's not the connection to the past that's the issue with me -comics had gone a long time without that before they started actually caring about continuity, so I'm not keen to blame COIE for that. It's the medium has become way too event-driven. Events sell, and so that's most of what they do now (and, indeed, there were numerous events in the 1980s right after COIE, so that's not a 21st century phenomenon). Sometimes it feels like they just stagger from event to event with nothing in between. I will say it seems like 21st century events have become increasingly reality-altering, making any sense of continuity impossible. And #1s well, so many titles seem to get reset every few years (I don't even know if they bother with even the soft reboots before renumbering now).

I do find Flashpoint to be a particularly heinous one, because Barry is made the "guilty party" for simply trying to undo a villain's evil machinations, which is what heroes should be doing. In an ideal world, if Zoom had to do that, then Barry should have succeeded and that set the world right. I'm just not keen on the heroes being bad for the world/universe. And I am still so not on-board with the murdered mom, which really is so tedious me. Because every hero does not need tons of angst - there were already plenty of heroes with suffering backgrounds. Barry becoming a hero because he had those values and wanted to make the world better was better to me.

[Tomkatie]

Bart wasn't born yet pre-Crisis but would be the grandson of pre-Crisis Iris, so while he is technically part of pre-Crisis continuity, no he wouldn't remember it.

Wasn't Jesse pregnant when Flashpoint happened, and the kid was born in Convergeance? That would explain it - it would mean being trapped in the Speed Force killed the baby.

Oh my goodness, you might be right. Now I hope DC brings back the baby, cuz that is rather morbid

[Frontier]

I definitely think COIE had bad long-term effects. I don't know enough about the economic/business situation to know if DC could have survived/thrived without it.

It's not the connection to the past that's the issue with me -comics had gone a long time without that before they started actually caring about continuity, so I'm not keen to blame COIE for that. It's the medium has become way too event-driven. Events sell, and so that's most of what they do now (and, indeed, there were numerous events in the 1980s right after COIE, so that's not a 21st century phenomenon). Sometimes it feels like they just stagger from event to event with nothing in between. I will say it seems like 21st century events have become increasingly reality-altering, making any sense of continuity impossible. And #1s well, so many titles seem to get reset every few years (I don't even know if they bother with even the soft reboots before renumbering now).

I do find Flashpoint to be a particularly heinous one, because Barry is made the "guilty party" for simply trying to undo a villain's evil machinations, which is what heroes should be doing. In an ideal world, if Zoom had to do that, then Barry should have succeded and that set the world right. I'm just not keen on the heroes being bad for the world/universe. And I am still so not on-board with the murdered mom, which really is so tedious me. Because every hero does not need tons of angst - there were already plenty of heroes with suffering backgrounds. Barry becoming a hero because he had those values and wanted to make the world better was better to me.

At the very least I don't think DC was as event heavy Post-Crisis as they were wayyyyy later down the line...but that's true for the Big Two in general.

[Buried Alien]

Bart wasn't born yet pre-Crisis but would be the grandson of pre-Crisis Iris, so while he is technically part of pre-Crisis continuity, no he wouldn't remember it.

Wasn't Jesse pregnant when Flashpoint happened, and the kid was born in Convergeance? That would explain it - it would mean being trapped in the Speed Force killed the baby.

I think Bart would only remember the Post-COIE continuity. As a general rule, I think if the character was created after COIE was published, that character only knows the Post-COIE universe and timeline. Only characters who first appeared Pre-COIE would have any chance of remembering the Pre-COIE Multiverse and timeline.

Geoff Johns (or was it Mark Waid?) once posited an Earth-8, however, where characters created after COIE such as Tim Drake, Doomsday, Bane, Kyle Rayner, Bart Allen, would have existed had COIE not done away with the Multiverse.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)