Golly, Iris! Sorry I'm late! The Flash (Barry Allen) Appreciation 2023

[Johnny]

I think you’re being paranoid. Everyone knows the failure of this movie is not the fault of the character more the fault of Wb’s incompetence. Along with the actor being problematic in real life (and that’s putting it lightly).

The Green Lantern movie's failure wasn't the fault of its main character either. Yet hasn't that character suffered for it for more than a decade since? There are good reasons for people to be "paranoid" about stuff like this.

[Garlador]

The Green Lantern movie's failure wasn't the fault of its main character either. Yet hasn't that character suffered for it for more than a decade since? There are good reasons for people to be "paranoid" about stuff like this.

Green Lantern also didn’t just end a 9 season run with an actor people loved playing the role for nearly a decade.

[Dred]

I'm a Wally fan too, but I'm terrified of some of his fans because there's a number of them whose whole mission in life (it seems) is to bury (no pun intended) Barry forever. They actually, really hate the character, and it's not always just a passive hate.

In an ideal universe, we'd get a trilogy of trilogies of FLASH movies: three about Jay Garrick; three about Barry Allen; three about Wally West. The end of each trilogy would begin the transition to the next Flash in line and the third and final movie of Barry's tenure (sixth movie overall) would lead into a DC-wide COIE movie, with Wally taking the mantle at the end of the COIE movie (much as he did in the comics) and then becoming the focus of the final three films, with all the Flashes reunited in the finale of the ninth movie.

This will never happen because DC/WB is struggling to put out just one decent FLASH movie (let alone nine), but it's a dream of mine.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

My friend you've gotten several different Barry flash adaptations over the last 20 years. If you think Wally fans had any way to affect anyone's decision making on this process, then they've utterly failed for longer than these forums have been around. Every single comic Wally fan could make it their mission to downvote, review bomb, and scream about how bad Barry is every day for the rest of their life and it'd be a drop in the bucket.

The most you're going to get is disenfranchised people like me, who have to live our lives as major Wally fans without ever seeing him star as The Flash, seeing multiple different versions of Flashpoint before we ever get a Born to Run or Terminal Velocity. At this point I'm just defeated and depressed about it. It's a dead end to even bother with -- Wally won't ever matter outside of being Kid Flash, and I'd bet you my life savings that even when they adapt that in the future it's just going to be Wallace.

And no, in an ideal world Wally could just get his own movies like Miles Morales does. Movies don't translate to long form storytelling like comics and this idea that even a great Flash trilogy featuring Barry would successfully lead into Wally is not just a pipe dream, but delusional. If Barry was successful enough to get a trilogy of movies, they would not kill him off to set up a new character. They'd just reboot it with more Barry. Movie production cycles and audience catering aren't fitted to this, which is why characters like Ant-Man and Miles Morales needed to get their own movies instead of following up after some trilogy of stories or whatever. It's why we get Jaime as Blue Beetle instead of setting up Ted first.

After all, the only reason Wally was ever The Flash in the first place was hardly from the monumental success of Barry -- it was from the slow decline and failure. It's a sad fact, but companies don't often kill the golden goose to take a risk. They put an old dog out to pasture. This is one of the things that is true between both comics and movies.

This perception that we need to establish a series of Barry movies first is just saying we should never have a Wally movie. Which is what will happen, regardless. Hell dude, we can't even get Wally as The Flash in animation anymore.

Your worry should be just that they don't care to do anything major with the Flash in general going forward if this turns out a disappointment for the studio. Wally is less than irrelevant.

[Frontier]

My friend you've gotten several different Barry flash adaptations over the last 20 years. If you think Wally fans had any way to affect anyone's decision making on this process, then they've utterly failed for longer than these forums have been around. Every single comic Wally fan could make it their mission to downvote, review bomb, and scream about how bad Barry is every day for the rest of their life and it'd be a drop in the bucket.

The most you're going to get is disenfranchised people like me, who have to live our lives as major Wally fans without ever seeing him star as The Flash, seeing multiple different versions of Flashpoint before we ever get a Born to Run or Terminal Velocity. At this point I'm just defeated and depressed about it. It's a dead end to even bother with -- Wally won't ever matter outside of being Kid Flash, and I'd bet you my life savings that even when they adapt that in the future it's just going to be Wallace.

And no, in an ideal world Wally could just get his own movies like Miles Morales does. Movies don't translate to long form storytelling like comics and this idea that even a great Flash trilogy featuring Barry would successfully lead into Wally is not just a pipe dream, but delusional. If Barry was successful enough to get a trilogy of movies, they would not kill him off to set up a new character. They'd just reboot it with more Barry. Movie production cycles and audience catering aren't fitted to this, which is why characters like Ant-Man and Miles Morales needed to get their own movies instead of following up after some trilogy of stories or whatever. It's why we get Jaime as Blue Beetle instead of setting up Ted first.

After all, the only reason Wally was ever The Flash in the first place was hardly from the monumental success of Barry -- it was from the slow decline and failure. It's a sad fact, but companies don't often kill the golden goose to take a risk. They put an old dog out to pasture. This is one of the things that is true between both comics and movies.

This perception that we need to establish a series of Barry movies first is just saying we should never have a Wally movie. Which is what will happen, regardless. Hell dude, we can't even get Wally as The Flash in animation anymore.

Your worry should be just that they don't care to do anything major with the Flash in general going forward if this turns out a disappointment for the studio. Wally is less than irrelevant.

I'm not sure if I would go that far. I do feel like executive/editorial feelings about Wally have been shifting a bit recently.

[Dred]

The comics do not matter. As we see when they adapt things. They didn't even give Mark Waid a thank you credit in the movie, you think they even know Wally West's name in the movie offices?

It's Barry, it's been Barry, and it will continue to be Barry. Barry fans have nothing to worry about.

[Frontier]

The comics do not matter. As we see when they adapt things. They didn't even give Mark Waid a thank you credit in the movie, you think they even know Wally West's name in the movie offices?

It's Barry, it's been Barry, and it will continue to be Barry. Barry fans have nothing to worry about.

I'm not even just talking about the comics, I just feel like even someone like Gunn might want to have Wally in the movies at some point, but it's probably too early to say.

[bat39]

I'm not even just talking about the comics, I just feel like even someone like Gunn might want to have Wally in the movies at some point, but it's probably too early to say.

Yeah it's possible. Especially since he's a DCAU fan apparently.

Barry and Wally are admittedly interchangeable when it comes to adaptations. The one we get is usually the one who's in the comics at that point. When JL/JLU was airing Wally was Flash in the comics, so he was Flash on the show (they didn't really make a big deal about it though). The CW show and the DCEU had Barry because he was Flash in the comics. Ditto for most of the animated DTV's.

One notable exception is the 90's Flash show with JWS as Barry, made a few years into Wally's tenure as the Flash in the comics, but that's because the producer specifically did not want Wally as he found the character obnoxious.

Right now, you kinda have both Barry and Wally around in the comics, but Wally is the 'main' Flash. It may be possible that Wally is the Flash in future movies, or they might prefer to build on the brand recognition of Barry Allen thanks to the show and the DCEU.

If not the live-action movies, I kinda want them to make Wally the Flash in the current animated movie-verse...especially if there's a COIE adaptation down the line.

[Buried Alien]

Yeah it's possible. Especially since he's a DCAU fan apparently.

Barry and Wally are admittedly interchangeable when it comes to adaptations. The one we get is usually the one who's in the comics at that point. When JL/JLU was airing Wally was Flash in the comics, so he was Flash on the show (they didn't really make a big deal about it though). The CW show and the DCEU had Barry because he was Flash in the comics. Ditto for most of the animated DTV's.

One notable exception is the 90's Flash show with JWS as Barry, made a few years into Wally's tenure as the Flash in the comics, but that's because the producer specifically did not want Wally as he found the character obnoxious.

Right now, you kinda have both Barry and Wally around in the comics, but Wally is the 'main' Flash. It may be possible that Wally is the Flash in future movies, or they might prefer to build on the brand recognition of Barry Allen thanks to the show and the DCEU.

If not the live-action movies, I kinda want them to make Wally the Flash in the current animated movie-verse...especially if there's a COIE adaptation down the line.

I'm down for Wally as the Flash in live action, but there needs to be a transition from Barry to Wally. What I would rather not see is Wally just dropped into the role without much of a backstory, a la the Timmverse. Wally as the Flash means something precisely *because* he had been Kid Flash and Barry's protege before taking the mantle after Barry dies or disappears. It wouldn't make sense for Wally to be the default Flash, any more than it would for a new Batman continuity to start with Dick Grayson or Damian Wayne as the first and only Batman.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Dred]

There does not need to be any major transition. It's like saying you have to read a bunch of Barry comics before you read Born To Run. Of course you don't. Hell they're starting with Damian in the new lineup of movies, skipping over 3 different Robins. This idea that to use Wally you're beholden to setting up Wally over the course of some long term exposure to Barry is silly. Miles Morales has his own trilogy.

[Buried Alien]

There does not need to be any major transition. It's like saying you have to read a bunch of Barry comics before you read Born To Run. Of course you don't. Hell they're starting with Damian in the new lineup of movies, skipping over 3 different Robins. This idea that to use Wally you're beholden to setting up Wally over the course of some long term exposure to Barry is silly. Miles Morales has his own trilogy.

Wally without Barry being a huge part of his background isn't really Wally. Wally's claim to fame is that he's the ultimate legacy character. Take that legacy away, and you're not left with much. The Timmverse Flash was a hoot, but other than humor, his character was kind of hollow. He lacked most of the qualities that made comics Wally compelling.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Dred]

You're left with plenty. Do you think someone can't read Terminal Velocity? Most people who get recommended Wally comics do not read Barry first, or at least have no need to. You can set Barry up very easily in a background setup, the same way every Spider-man movie series starts with Ben dying.

[James Cameron]

I'd rather be declared crazy/paranoid than right on this one, but I can't help but feeling a barely concealed undercurrent of glee that the film isn't doing as well as hoped. I get a sense of "Hah! Knew the movie would fail, and am glad it is! In fact, let's make it fail harder by anti-hyping it as much as possible on social media (including this forum/thread) so that it kills off Barry from pop culture forever and Wally can take over as the Flash when a new movie gets made at some point in the future! Serves him (Barry) right!"

Declaring me paranoid/wrong/crazy would be much more comforting right now than telling me that I'm right and hit the nail on the head. I DON'T want to be right about this one, but I feel disturbingly assured.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!

It seems fairly simple to me:

The people making this movie were not fans of Flash. They barely did their research, and even if they did, they didn't care. I disagree that it was a deliberate attempt to kill off Barry Allen from pop culture, it was simply a complete and utter misunderstanding of the character. WB proved that the only Flash story they care about is Flashpoint because of Flash's ability to time travel and change events traveling through the multiverse, giving them avenues for cameos, crossovers, and ways to set up other films. They essentially turned Barry Allen into an advertising tool, using one of the most divisive and controversial stories in his history (despite its popularity) as a blueprint when decades of material that do a far better job of showcasing the character exist.

They think, "we don't have to read these books! let's just do our own thing! who the hell's Iris? the rogues? huh?"

[Waterfall]

Wally without Barry being a huge part of his background isn't really Wally. Wally's claim to fame is that he's the ultimate legacy character. Take that legacy away, and you're not left with much. The Timmverse Flash was a hoot, but other than humor, his character was kind of hollow. He lacked most of the qualities that made comics Wally compelling.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

You can Star Trek your way into it; the movie starts with Barry dying/disappearing and the rest is about coming to age story for Wally. You get Barry in flashbacks or in Speed Force. We don't need 20 more years of Barry to get to that point lol.

However I don't care about the lead of the movie, I'm just glad the flop means Flashpoint will be put on the back burner as a "go to Flash story" for Barry. He deserves better than being associated to that trash.

[Dataweaver]

Getting back to the comics:

I'm tired of Barry having a dead mom. He went all through the Silver and Bronze Ages, from his creation in the 1950s to his death in the Crisis on Infinite Earths, without a dead mom; and he did fine. As well, the idea that attempting to go back in time to save her necessarily makes a mess of the timeline doesn't sit well for me: in addition to the fact that there used to be a timeline where she was alive and well and the universe wasn't a mess (the pre-Final Crisis timeline), there's also the fact that the Flashpoint changed things about the timeline that saving the life of one middle-class housewife had no business changing.

And if Wally can be salvaged from the train wreck that was Heroes in Crisis, Barry can be rescued from the Flashpoint.

That said, these are comics; and as such, you don't just change it. You tell a compelling story that changes it. Here's how I'd do it:

Start with a Second Flashpoint: something in Barry's past inexplicably changes for the worst, in some outrageous manner. Killing Iris would be the obvious move here, but perhaps that would be too obvious. Whatever it is, Thawne shows up and taunts Barry about it, saying that he caused the change, and that because the Negative Speed Force was involved, Barry can't undo it without shattering the timeline like he did when he tried to save his mother. He then gloats, saying that he's going to do it again and again until Barry's life is a total shambles; and that there's nothing that Barry can do to stop him.

This sets Barry off on a quest to do exactly what Thawne says that he can't. After some investigation, he finds that there's something unnatural that entered into the Negative Speed Force at some point and imbued it with the additional ability to freeze time, which is what Thawne was talking about: attempts to change frozen time will instead trigger a Flashpoint, shattering the timeline in wholely unpredictable ways. But if that thing that entered the Negative Speed Force can be dealt with, the pockets of frozen time will unfreeze, and Barry will be able to set right what Thawne made wrong.

Barry then enters the Negative Speed Force, confronts whatever it is that has been causing the “time freezing” effect to manifest, and defeats it. When he returns from the Negative Speed Force, he then follows through by visiting each of the “frozen time” events that Thawne created and undoing them — notably including his mom's murder. This time, without the artificially frozen time in play, the timeline doesn't shatter, and is instead put right.

Barry then nabs Thawne, throws him in prison, and tells him that there's nothing that he can do that Barry can't undo; his days of screwing up the timeline are over. Maybe even reveal that Thawne is now unable to access Barry's past at all.

Finally, Barry returns home to enjoy his life as his parents stop by for a visit; or some other final event that shows the new status quo that Barry has earned.

[Frontier]

I'm happy to just not bring up the dead mom for several years now...although it's kind of funny how Barry's dad is still alive but barely appears, I think he only appeared in, like, 3-4 issues of Williamson's run.