Innovations in Spider-Man comics

[Mister Mets]

Kevinroc started a thread based on a youtuber's concerns that the days of creativity and innovation are over in the Spider-Man comics.

This does beg a question about what counts as innovative and creative Spider-Man comics. This isn't necessarily a proxy for what's good, since you could have a story that is well-told and familiar.

It's kinda counterintuitive to look backwards when thinking about innovation, since writers and artists bringing that stuff back wouldn't technically be innovative. A story about a full-issue conversation could be really good, but we saw it before in Ultimate Spider-Man and JMS/ Romita Jr's Amazing Spider-Man. There was earlier precedent in independent comics like Zot! or Cerebus, although the decision to apply it to Spider-Man was novel.

But what are innovations you enjoyed? What are stories that you read and thought that it was new or different from what you've seen before?

[Alex_Of_X]

Love it, miss it, would totally kiss it

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[Kevinroc]

Love it, miss it, would totally kiss it

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That's a good looking spread, but that's not exactly an innovative one.

[Alex_Of_X]

Spider-Fu is surely innovative!

...tho Kang did do it first
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[spiderlink]

I will have to agree with another user that point out that people only call “innovation” when is something they like, if we are being honest Peter and MJ getting back together is not innovation we have 30 years of that pairing neither Peter and Felicia being together is innovation
Maybe we can try moving Peter to another city meet new people and build a new supporting cast and new villains, but I don’t think people would like it (I would hate it lol)
But we can’t sit and say that we want new concepts and innovation for Spider-Man while demanding the status quo that lasted the most in all the history of publication

[Kevinroc]

I will have to agree with another user that point out that people only call “innovation” when is something they like, if we are being honest Peter and MJ getting back together is not innovation we have 30 years of that pairing neither Peter and Felicia being together is innovation
Maybe we can try moving Peter to another city meet new people and build a new supporting cast and new villains, but I don’t think people would like it (I would hate it lol)
But we can’t sit and say that we want new concepts and innovation for Spider-Man while demanding the status quo that lasted the most in all the history of publication

Peter and Felicia is not innovation. We've seen tons of superheroes hook up with other people in costumes. Even heroes who hooked up with villains. (Alan Scott was once married to Rose Cathorn, aka Thorn, who gave birth to Jade and Obsidian.)

[spiderlink]

Peter and Felicia is not innovation. We've seen tons of superheroes hook up with other people in costumes. Even heroes who hooked up with villains. (Alan Scott was once married to Rose Cathorn, aka Thorn, who gave birth to Jade and Obsidian.)

I never said it was lol

[Kevinroc]

I never said it was lol

The problem with Peter and MJ is, at the time, they were innovative because MJ was never created to be the love interest. She was created to be a comic relief side character. She eventually became the love interest through story, but she was always the fan favorite pick for Peter's partner. The pairing just happened to become canon.

The problem is you really can't do that kind of thing again.

But if you're looking to innovate within Spider-Man, you're not really going to get it from his love life at this point.

[spiderlink]

The problem with Peter and MJ is, at the time, they were innovative because MJ was never created to be the love interest. She was created to be a comic relief side character. She eventually became the love interest through story, but she was always the fan favorite pick for Peter's partner. The pairing just happened to become canon.

The problem is you really can't do that kind of thing again.

But if you're looking to innovate within Spider-Man, you're not really going to get it from his love life at this point.

I don’t want to derail another thread to MJ again (we have like 5 of those) but she was definitely created to be a love interest, Stan Lee just liked Gwen more
And I’m not the one who bring the topic of innovation so I’m not looking to do anything lol

[Daibhidh]

I suppose when I think of innovation I think of something like Fraction's Hawkeye, with the sign language issue and the Lucky Pizza Dog POV issue. Or in Spider-man something like To Have and To Hold (*), or Chip Zdarsky's final Spider-man issue in his Peter Parker, or his Life Story. Those are stories that aren't just doing things in story that haven't happened before, but are doing things with comics that haven't quite been done before to my knowledge. That makes it sound like I think innovation is just technical rather than subject matter. Older things that are innovative: well, Spider-man as such was innovative as a superhero, and I suppose the Death of Gwen Stacy (much as I think fridging is a trail that has been followed too much over the years), and I think Mary Jane as love interest was innovative in both the seventies and the eighties (I don't know if there was anything like her in DC). Kraven's Last Hunt is clearly a well that people have been drawing on consciously or unconsciously ever since. Was Peter trying to stop the Juggernaut the first time a major superhero went up against someone clearly out of his power class?

(*) or Parallel Lives, though to me Parallel Lives reads like an attempt to copy To Have and To Hold by someone who doesn't quite understand it, which for obvious reasons is more impressive than I make it sound.

[PCN24454]

Love it, miss it, would totally kiss it

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The problem is that Western Comics tend to have very static power levels. Upgrades and training really don’t matter.

[Mister Mets]

I suppose when I think of innovation I think of something like Fraction's Hawkeye, with the sign language issue and the Lucky Pizza Dog POV issue. Or in Spider-man something like To Have and To Hold (*), or Chip Zdarsky's final Spider-man issue in his Peter Parker, or his Life Story. Those are stories that aren't just doing things in story that haven't happened before, but are doing things with comics that haven't quite been done before to my knowledge. That makes it sound like I think innovation is just technical rather than subject matter. Older things that are innovative: well, Spider-man as such was innovative as a superhero, and I suppose the Death of Gwen Stacy (much as I think fridging is a trail that has been followed too much over the years), and I think Mary Jane as love interest was innovative in both the seventies and the eighties (I don't know if there was anything like her in DC). Kraven's Last Hunt is clearly a well that people have been drawing on consciously or unconsciously ever since. Was Peter trying to stop the Juggernaut the first time a major superhero went up against someone clearly out of his power class?

(*) or Parallel Lives, though to me Parallel Lives reads like an attempt to copy To Have and To Hold by someone who doesn't quite understand it, which for obvious reasons is more impressive than I make it sound.

It's a good point that much of what we think of as innovations are technical, and we sometimes overlook that. But there are still some innovations that are character based. The symbiote lore and clones were different from what we've seen before.

One point on innovations is how things build on what's been done before. So the great weight scene in Amazing Spider-Man #33 led to iconic scenes in other runs. Roger Stern wanted the Juggernaut to be his version of that scene, which became a template for a certain type of Spider-Man fight scene. And then JMS and Mike Zeck do their own version.

"Life Story" borrowed an approach from John Byrne's Batman/ Superman: Generations mini-series, though Zdarsky and Bagley added their own twists, including an appreciation of the historical context and a love of all eras of the comics.

[DanMad1977]

Innovativ?

Hm...kill Aunt May forever and let Peter grow.

Get MJ out of the picture. They totally botched it. For me, there is no turning back anymore. Before the current run, I thought ok let them be together again for good, but now...nope. But get her far away.

Peter and Black Cat is an old hat, so not innovativ at all. But getting together and staying together, living in the same house? That would be a challenge. Not gonna happen, though.

maybe these are not innovations, I am not good at this

[Vegan]

I think it would be very innovative if, in the next run, Peter got a super cool tech suit. I don’t think that’s been done before.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I think "innovative" is the wrong word because it implies originality. And you can make the case that nothing is original, therefore nothing counts.

A better question is what adds values, brings new perspectives, and expands the mythos. Into The Spider-Verse was pretty "innovative" by that standard. It took a character that historically had no precedent for legacy characters (not like the Flash Family or the Green Lantern Corp), and made an argument as to why someone other than Peter can be Spider-Man. Miles and the Spider-Verse comic debuted prior to that, sure, but their arguments were never as convincing as the arguments made by that movie.

Prior to that, the last "innovative" run was JMS. He deconstructed all the reasons why Peter didn't tell Aunt May he is Spider-Man. Ever since then, every adaptation and new version has hinted on Aunt May being in on the secret. He also canonized Aunt May as a more woman than the Silver Age issues let on. I mean... that's pretty innovative stuff.

As is the idea that Peter is a great teacher. It's something that wasn't a thing prior to JMS, and it never left Post-OMD. Honestly, it's lowkey one of the reasons why OMD will never be accepted: To accept that Spider-Man is a teen or a screwup, you have to let go of the idea that he is one of the best teachers we've seen in the Marvel Universe. And the statement "Peter is a great teacher" is too engrained in your average reader at this point. It's why portrayals of Peter in a mentor role never left with OMD, and it's something the current adaptations (ITSV and Insomniac specifically) are flirting with. And given Feige's comments about how teaching is the perfect job for Peter, the MCU will presumably eventually show it too. JMS gave Peter a job that is now his second most iconic job after photography. I would call that "innovative".