Amazing Spider-man 22 Preview

[TinkerSpider]

I almost never hear about Norman stuff but this doesn't even make sense to me lol.

It’s been a key criticism since Wells’s run started. All over the internet, not just here.

What is "problematic" supposed to even mean in this context? The relationship is supposed to be Rocky and off putting, that's the entire point. But it’s the only option Peter has right now. This is kinda what I'm getting at. Why is it disliked for being problematic when it’s supposed to be a dubious situation that Peter is more in by necessity than choice? This isn't the first "hero and his archenemy are forced to work together" storyline we've gotten, not even with spider man. I have no idea that the "problematic" moniker is supposed to indicate but that just boils down to complaining that Peter is in a tough spot, which again I can't get behind.

But it isn’t presented as Peter is in a tough spot. And Peter has choices - like not working for Norman, no matter how bad things are for Peter.

Instead, it’s presented as Norman is Peter’s sugar daddy and Peter is perfectly happy being Norman’s kept man. Peter has barely pushed back or had second thoughts about the ethics and optics of working for Norman. (Frankly, working for Norman is why the superhero community should not trust Peter/a Spider-Man wearing an Oscorp suit - but that hasn’t even come up.)

The problem isn’t the situation, it’s the execution. Because Wells’s first priority as a writer was to keep his precious little mystery boxes sealed tight, he walled off the characters from the reader. The characters all know what happened, the only person in the dark is the reader. Therefore, Wells has had to keep the characters speaking in vague allusions and silenced their inner dialogue, which means the reader has very little insight into Peter’s thought processes or inner emotions.

This storyline could absolutely work but not the way Wells is writing it. Because of Wells’s writing choices, Peter’s motivations are obscured, his dialogue coy, his emotions absent. That leaves the reader adrift and unmoored, unable to identify with the characters’ situation as we lack the necessary insight into why they are acting the way they are.

TL;dr: It’s the writing.

A lot of folks talk about wanting Peter to be "happy" and they'd enjoy his stories more. But I dont get that mindset. You know he's going to win in the end. You know he has a status quo. I dont want him to be "happy" for the sake of being happy, I want him to have engaging and fresh feeling stories to read. Everyone else agrees on this when it's literally any other media. Broody ASM Peter on NWH? We love it! Broody depressed Rami Peter in SM2? One of the best superhero movies. Why is it when we have that scenario play out in a book now it's the worst thing ever? And vice versa, when we get a happier Peter in the MCU, a lot of folks say things are too easy for him!! I just cannot understand the discrepancy. I want good stories. I dont just want him happy, I want to enjoy his story and what he goes through and comes out on top of, so yeah I find it fun when he gets a little beat up and has to do a team up with his old archenemy to fight a bad guy. Yes I find it exciting when he gets beat to hell and has to fight through dozens of goons and then it all turns out to be a trick set up by a calculating villain. Thats entertaining superhero hard knocks for me.

“Fans just want him to be happy” is a straw man argument and a misreading of the sentiment being expressed.

When fans express that, it’s a signal that the story is unsatisfying to the reader; it has become unbalanced and isn’t providing emotional catharsis.

Western storytelling, the tradition to which American comic books belong, has a typical structure (comics are never-ending serial, but the serial is broken into arcs which follow the structure). The best known structural example is Freytag’s Pyramid, if you want to Google it.

The reason why those films work is because of right side of the pyramid. Peter has been put through the wringer; that’s climbing the left side of the pyramid. BUT! There’s a climax, where all the trials and tribulations come to a head, the final boss battle, if you will. Then there’s the falling action right side of the pyramid, in which Peter puts his life back to together again. And then there is the resolution, in which Peter’s life is made whole - only to start climbing the pyramid in the next arc/film. (In Hero’s Journey structure, this is called “return with the elixir” - but Peter is constantly stuck wandering the wilderness, his hands empty, in the Wells run).

The entire left side of the pyramid has been missing in Wells’s run. It’s nothing but being dragged in the dirt - with Peter pretty much giving up, acting helpless, and requiring a third party to rescue him in every arc written by Wells to date - and with Peter’s thoughts and emotions cut off from the reader because of the precious little mystery boxes, the reader is even more disoriented and adrift. That’s why people are calling for Peter to be “happy” - because we are all incredibly sophisticated consumers of story, we have all internalized how story structure works, and we instinctually know when a story is unsatisfying or is missing beats or leaves us unsatisfied. There has been no climax, no return with elixir, no satisfying resolution in Wells’s run to date (the Tombstone arc is perhaps an exception, but that wasn’t a victory for Peter - Tombstone was the actual victor and Peter let him off scot free).

And I dont know why no one wants spidey to have to tussle in the dirt a bit before getting back up again anymore. Because we already know he will.

Because constant struggle without a win, or elixir, or climax - whatever you want to call it - is unsatisfying to read. It’s pointless. It’s not inspirational. It’s not entertaining. It’s just misery porn. And hey, not knocking people’s particular reading joys, but in general audiences don’t enjoy a steady diet of misery porn.

It reads like if the black suit stuff came out today people would say "the writer is using the suit as a Mcguffin to write Peter our of character so it sucks." But like... thats just the dude going through it, this always happens and he rises above.

That’s…not how the black suit story was written. Because again, it’s not that the idea of Peter working with a supervillain or Peter wearing a symbiote is bad.

It all comes down to execution and how the idea is written in story form.

[Toonstrack]

I think the BND crew’s wrong headed attitude towards Peter is best exemplified, oddly, in the small scene where Peter is running late to meet Norman in one of the most recent issues. In the past Peter would have been running late because he had been busy solving a Spider-Man problem. In this run he’s running late because he’s an idiot I guess?
It’s strange because one of those situations makes the character likable, even someone you would look up to (something that I think is generally what you’d want in a comic about a hero), and the other makes the character look like a dumb mess who is bad at managing his life because he’s dumb and screws up all the time (something that makes me not care about our protagonist. Why would I root for this person in this situation?)

Becauss that character is goring through his own personal hell and is still gracious enough to try and help our a villain who's done him more harm than any other person, and that has affected his mental state and will to even do this stuff? Like sure you have a point if you remove literslly all context but now a Peter who has no friends he can go to, no MJ to embrace can't even be late for something without getting trashed on? Are you kidding me?

First, the problem with the Norman stuff is that it's played straight. Peter is treated like some forgiveness machine and has no problem working for Norman. And it's a problem because Norman is a unique kind of evil. This isn't Rhino or Sandman or even Kraven we're talking about here. This is a sociopath - one of the biggest in Marvel Comics - and Peter working for him, trusting him, and begging him is played straight. There is no way to sugercoat that. It's one of the lowest things you can do in an ASM book.

And second, you guys need to stop with the "whataboutism". Yes, other Spider-Man writers have done similar ideas to Wells. The difference is (1) they were executed significantly better and (2) made sense in the context of the story and of what we know about these characters. People have explained already why we think this run is a poor retread of 80s comics, of Spider-Man 2, of JMS and of OMD/BND. You are not bringing up some new enlightening point here that none of us supposedly thought of before.

As I said just a few pages ago (in this thread or another), fans don't have a problem with Peter being broke or single if it is based on something relatable. Peter being evicted in Insomniac was fine. Peter B being single and jaded was fine. That doesn't change the fact that the BND Writers (and Wells specifically) don't keep Peter broke and single based on anything grounded and relatable, but because of a desire for misery porn and the misconception that "Peter is a looooooser". In other words, context is everything. So please, stop with the whataboutism.

That's not whatabourism when there's legitimate comparisons to be made, and further the "but thats different!" Explanations are incredibly weak. For example the Norman Osborn thing, yes hes a psychopath and has done terrible things and has hurt Peter personally, so should Peter just snap his neck when his sins are mystical removed? Further, its not "played" striaght Peter never stops talking about how much he doesn't want to do any of this stuff. But that Norman is, mystically made into a consciable person and the challenge is how does Peter confront that. Its fresh and something worth exploring because it pushes his own code to its limits as he kinda has his hands tied. He wouldnt just beat him out of spite, he has no current legal precedent to arrest him, so he's stuck.

Calling any spider man misery porn is almost disingenuous at its surface considering spideys life sucking is kinda a hallmark of the character, but no it doesn't just have to be relatable consequences either. His girlfriend getting her neck snapped after he tries to save her from being thrown off a bridge by a supervillain isn't "relatable". The death of Jean DeWolffe wasn't "relatable". Those were all significant causes of misery for him in his life and they weren't brought brought on by relatable circumstances at all. Most of the characters woes come from him having to live two separate lives and his superher one tending to affect his civilian one. This has always been the case and most of the time not its not relatable but we love spider man because he fights through those larger than life trials.

Furrher i don't even think most readers *want* spider man to be relatable lol. Wasnt that the reason marvel justified OMD? And all the readers called them out on their BS for that?

People keep saying "it's how he's written" and then just make up stuff about how he's written or ignore very obvious stuff there. Like no Peter is not "happily" working for Norman, he is doing so because he needs money and he's been very clear about where he stands on this. No, it is being played straight, both Norman's guilt and Peter reluctance have led to both of them nearly being killed. And also, Peter has had wins. Its not just constantly being dragged through the mud. Hes grown closer to Felicia. Hes saved people and hes put away bad guys. And he hasn't changed who he is at his core. He showed compassion for tombstone, and Ned Leeds. But all of that gets either conveniently left out, or it gets complained about! Peter gets a happy birthday kiss from his gf isn't seen as a "win" from the readers, when it should be, which goes right back to my initial point about where all of this stems from.

You can't criticize writing snd then selectively ignore bits of the writing to make the criticisms work. Later has wins, he has moments of reluctance and pain working with Norman, and yes its problematic and is being portrayed as such lol. And thats my stance right now becayse when I read some of these peoples thoughts here and elsewhere its clear to be their judgemenr and their analysis is being clouded by an already present bias. When you have folks collectively pretending stuff that is there isn't there or stuff that isn't there is there, that's the cause.

And honestly that's fine. If people want to consume their books that way whatever but you csnt then try snd tell everyone else to see it that same way. Because everyone's idea spidey story is different snd there isn't just one right way to do him.

[TinkerSpider]

Becauss that character is goring through his own personal hell and is still gracious enough to try and help our a villain who's done him more harm than any other person, and that has affected his mental state and will to even do this stuff? Like sure you have a point if you remove literslly all context but now a Peter who has no friends he can go to, no MJ to embrace can't even be late for something without getting trashed on? Are you kidding me?

And this is why Wells’s writing is substandard.

Yes, Wells tells us Peter has no friends.

But we see Peter has lots of friends. In ASM 1 alone, Johnny comes by to check up on him. Randy is paying for Peter’s apartment and wants Peter’s help. Aunt May has forgiven him.

In ASM 900/6, nearly every supporting character still alive shows up in the middle of the day for Peter’s surprise party, from Liz to Jonah to Flash to Vin Gonzalez to Anna Maria to Bobbi to Betty and the list goes on.

People do not show up to the surprise parties of people they don’t like.

Therefore, he has plenty of options besides Norman.

Wells tells us one thing, but shows another, yet expects what he tells to be the primary story mover even though the act of reading prioritizes what we are shown.

It’s. The. Writing. Which for some reason, is highly amateurish this run.

That's not whatabourism when there's legitimate comparisons to be made, and further the "but thats different!" Explanations are incredibly weak. For example the Norman Osborn thing, yes hes a psychopath and has done terrible things and has hurt Peter personally, so should Peter just snap his neck when his sins are mystical removed?

No one is saying Peter should kill. They are, however, saying that for Peter to be in character, he would keep his distance and be wary of even a sins-cleansed Norman - as indeed, he and MJ were properly written to be by Spencer - because Norman has played “sane” and “regretful” before and it has always been a trap. For the reader to believe Peter is being written as an actual human being, we would expect to see some sort of acknowledgement of “fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice…” but we don’t. Also, what does “sins cleansed” even mean? As Cantwell has brilliantly played with in Gold Goblin, does removing the “sin” (i.e. the action) remove the capacity to commit future sins? Or the responsibility for having committed them? A Peter written in character should not be so incredibly guileless and gullible. This is someone, after all, who learned that when he lets bad people go, they hurt others - and that the responsibility to stop them lies on him.

But under Wells, Peter has abdicated his responsibility in favor of being a mindless compassion machine, who lets others go without a single thought to the consequences. Maybe he gives them a stern talking to, but that’s as far as Wells portrays PeterÂs responsibility. And it is a fundamental, egregious mischaracterization.

Further, it’s not "played" striaght Peter never stops talking about how much he doesn't want to do any of this stuff.

I’d say he’s pretty quiet about it. He made a token protest here and there early on, but that didn’t stop him from doing everything Norman wants from him, and accepting everything Norman gives him at pretty much face value.

But that Norman is, mystically made into a consciable person and the challenge is how does Peter confront that. ItÂ’s fresh and something worth exploring because it pushes his own code to its limits as he kinda has his hands tied. He wouldnt just beat him out of spite, he has no current legal precedent to arrest him, so he's stuck.

Yeah, that would be cool to explore. Too bad none of that is in the actual comic.

Calling any spider man misery porn is almost disingenuous at its surface considering spideys life sucking is kinda a hallmark of the character, but no it doesn't just have to be relatable consequences either. His girlfriend getting her neck snapped after he tries to save her from being thrown off a bridge by a supervillain isn't "relatable". The death of Jean DeWolffe wasn't "relatable". Those were all significant causes of misery for him in his life and they weren't brought brought on by relatable circumstances at all. Most of the characters woes come from him having to live two separate lives and his superher one tending to affect his civilian one. This has always been the case and most of the time not its not relatable but we love spider man because he fights through those larger than life trials.

Stories are built on conflict. So bad things happen to characters. They struggle. That’s the left side of Freytag’s pyramid. But the bad things are balanced by the right side.

Gwen is killed. MJ comes to comfort him.

The black suit turns out to be parasite that is taking him out on patrol at night without Peter’s consent. Peter gets the suit off thanks to the FF.

And in both those stories, the reader is inside Peter’s head. We feel WITH him. But Wells has shut the reader out of Peter’s head so he can protect his precious mystery boxes.

People keep saying "it's how he's written" and then just make up stuff about how he's written or ignore very obvious stuff there.

Pretty sure most of the criticism has been very much based on the text.

Like no Peter is not "happily" working for Norman, he is doing so because he needs money and he's been very clear about where he stands on this.

Oh, he seems pretty happy, judging by how excited Wells portrays him when working in the lab. And Wells has given Peter plenty of friends he can approach for help. There has been little to no examination on Peter’s part about this. Again, he makes a token protest, then doubles down on the situation even more. Also, Peter keeps changing why he is working for Norman. In ASM 10, to make himself feel better when confronted with a being wearing Gwen’s face, he says it’s because Norman helped him when he lost someone he loved. Although later, Peter downgrades that situation to “quite a pickle.”

No, it is being played straight, both Norman's guilt and Peter reluctance have led to both of them nearly being killed.

It’s been highly inconsistently written, I’ll give you that. First Norman doesn’t want to give Peter the suit because he supposedly can’t track Peter per Peter’s wishes — but next we see Norman can of course track everything Peter is doing and even Peter’s life signs LOL. Peter isn’t reluctant at all in his fights. Instead, he just gives up, says he’s going to die, and then needs rescue either by putting on the Oscorp suit or from Norman himself - or ReKrap or Paul LOL. Norman’s guilt is a factor in Gold Goblin - which is a brilliant series - but it’s not in ASM because that would require Wells to write Norman like he’s an three dimensional character (and as it is Norman is one of Wells’s better characterized characters, because he’s morally dark grey and Wells seems to have affinity only for bad guys).

And also, Peter has had wins. Its not just constantly being dragged through the mud. Hes grown closer to Felicia.

Not on page. We only knew they were growing closer because of the recaps LOL.

saved people and hes put away bad guys.

Who has he saved and who has he put away in issues written by Wells? He let Tombstone go. He let the Vulture go. IIRC the Hobgoblins get away (didn’t really read that arc too closely). Chasm is apprehended by his co-conspirator Maddie while Peter needed rescue from ReKrap twice and Norman once. So far, Rabin is doing whatever he wants to Peter.

And he hasn't changed who he is at his core. He showed compassion for tombstone, and Ned Leeds.

The Tombstone arc was competently written. But Peter Parker should not be making deal with criminals. Peter can put Tombstone at the sight of a mass murder. He was there when Tombstone mowed down the Crime Master’s men, with the bodies drawn with execution-style bullet holes in their heads or lying in pools of blood.

Yet Peter then allows himself to be played by Tombstone - and then he lets Tombstone walk away scot free, based on a hypothetical gang war that may or may not happen - even though Peter knows it’s not a hypothetical that Tombstone is a mass killer. Just like Peter let the Burglar go. Which is a fundamental betrayal of who Peter Parker should be.

Peter gets a happy birthday kiss from his gf isn't seen as a "win" from the readers, when it should be, which goes right back to my initial point about where all of this stems from.

Because Felicia wasn’t his girlfriend at the time! Not just a few months ago before ASM 900, we had Mary Jane and Black Cat: Beyond, in which Felicia said she was no longer interested in Peter that way. Then we had the first arc of Wells’s run, in which Peter is moping over MJ and MJ is standing sadly at the window looking at Peter.

Then all of a sudden we get Felicia acting like a possessive jealous clinging girlfriend, picking cat fights with Bobbi Morse, when there had been nothing to suggest that was the state of the relationship between her and Peter?!

That is the epitome of bad writing. It’s not motivated, it’s not on the page, it doesn’t follow from the previous story, and it is out of character.

You can't criticize writing snd then selectively ignore bits of the writing to make the criticisms work.

No one is doing that. People have been drawing on examples taken directly from the text.

And honestly that's fine. If people want to consume their books that way whatever but you csnt then try snd tell everyone else to see it that same way. Because everyone's idea spidey story is different snd there isn't just one right way to do him.

Agreed! Your head canon is yours!

[Vegan]

Oh god I forgot all about the casual misogyny in issue #900. Personally Anna Marconi referring to the man who took advantage of her sexually as her back up plan or something to that effect. So absolutely gross

[Huntsman Spider]

Oh god I forgot all about the casual misogyny in issue #900. Personally Anna Marconi referring to the man who took advantage of her sexually as her back up plan or something to that effect. So absolutely gross

Come to think of it, yeah, that was f***ed up. They might have reconciled somewhat in the second Superior Spider-Man volume when he was genuinely trying to be a better man and an actual hero, but still.

[Toonstrack]

And this is why WellsÂ’s writing is substandard.

People do not show up to the surprise parties of people they donÂ’t like.

Therefore, he has plenty of options besides Norman.

Wells tells us one thing, but shows another, yet expects what he tells to be the primary story mover even though the act of reading prioritizes what we are shown.

ItÂ’s. The. Writing. Which for some reason, is highly amateurish this run.

people will show up to things for folks they have problems with. And even given the folks that were there its mostly Peter's friends, not spider mans. No one said everyone hated him. But they have issues with him, and whats also not being addressed is HE has issues with THEM. Thats what happens with Johnny in issue 1. Peter has problems with then and he's not entirely ok with them not helping him with whatever happened. Also, another note is he shows up on time for that birthday. Lol.

Basically the folks that show up are people hes in relationships with for a long time. And none of them csn provide for him what Norman can anyway. Which is money. You're also leaving out that Norman WASNT invited here, which shod show you even more that he and Peter aren't "buddies" like you're making it out to be.

No one is saying Peter should kill. They are, however, saying that for Peter to be in character, he would keep his distance and be wary of even a sins-cleansed Norman - as indeed, he and MJ were properly written to be by Spencer - because Norman has played “sane” and “regretful” before and it has always been a trap.

They have addressed it. Norman first really steps into Peter's life in issue 7. Not THREE PAGES into the issue Peter confronts Norman, practically getting physical and telling him to stay away from the folks he cares about, and asks if this is sort of trick while implying a threat. Later after storming out Peter muses that he should have gone even further. Its only after Peter has actually asked Norman to don a suit to being to him, and Norman refuses that he begins to trust him more. Theres a pretty significant bit of storytelling there that gets ignored where one of Norman's traits is his constant pull towards the goblin. Peter *perceives* that Norman was able to cleary resist that, even when Peter was the one requesting him to don the suit.

So no, its not just Peter being an oaf and going along with anything. He is analyzing the behaviors of someone he knows well and seeing a change. This is yet another thing that gets completed ignored so more people can call Norman his "sugar daddy". Its blatant ignoring of story details like this that frustrate me about the criticism of this bookbecause it comes off like people aren't putting any effort in to see whats being put on the table.

But under Wells, Peter has abdicated his responsibility in favor of being a mindless compassion machine, who lets others go without a single thought to the consequences. Maybe he gives them a stern talking to, but that’s as far as Wells portrays PeterÂs responsibility. And it is a fundamental, egregious mischaracterization.

And, as I hole you can see by my more in depth explanation that is COMPLETELY false. And that's just one issue.



Yeah, that would be cool to explore. Too bad none of that is in the actual comic.


yet. Everything theywv showing us thus far has had purpose. The first arc established Peter's situation. The second established the new suit and Norman connection. The third set up Kafkasmanipulston which led to the fallout in Gold Goblin.

Stories are built on conflict. So bad things happen to characters. They struggle. ThatÂ’s the left side of FreytagÂ’s pyramid. But the bad things are balanced by the right side.

Gwen is killed. MJ comes to comfort him.

The black suit turns out to be parasite that is taking him out on patrol at night without PeterÂ’s consent. Peter gets the suit off thanks to the FF.

And in both those stories, the reader is inside PeterÂ’s head. We feel WITH him. But Wells has shut the reader out of PeterÂ’s head so he can protect his precious mystery boxes.

Those stories all took a while to resolve too. This is just a thing where you have to be patient and let the material playout.

Oh, he seems pretty happy, judging by how excited Wells portrays him when working in the lab. And Wells has given Peter plenty of friends he can approach for help. There has been little to no examination on Peter’s part about this. Again, he makes a token protest, then doubles down on the situation even more. Also, Peter keeps changing why he is working for Norman. In ASM 10, to make himself feel better when confronted with a being wearing Gwen’s face, he says it’s because Norman helped him when he lost someone he loved. Although later, Peter downgrades that situation to “quite a pickle.”

Can be more than one reason. And no, he actually encountered Gwen again. Like the actual Gwen, and she was taken away from him again. So yeah ill give him a pass on needed some fresh air.

Plus, didnt we want relatable stuff? Throwing yourself into a job to take your mind off personal issues and stress qualifies in my book. You csnt have it both ways. You can't say Peter isn't relatable enough and then complain when he has grounded relatable reasons for doing things out of the norm.

It’s been highly inconsistently written, I’ll give you that. First Norman doesn’t want to give Peter the suit because he supposedly can’t track Peter per Peter’s wishes — but next we see Norman can of course track everything Peter is doing and even Peter’s life signs LOL.

Thats false. Norman gives Peter the true answer in the issue and it has nothing to do with tracking.

Also, did you actually even read issue 7 and 8? Becausethis is kinda what I'm getting at, kt almost reads like you dont even remember the issue. Heres what happens. Peter gets beat to hell by Vulture in a surprise attack after Peter is distracting thinking about what happened at Norman's office. Vulture takes out his web shooters and he has to use his last bit of webbing to save himself from a fall. Then Vukture breaks his ribs. Peter has no webs and is already injured and if vulture pulls his initial attack again, then yes Peter is gonna be toast. He tells Norman this, Norman refuses and hangs up. Peter then manipulates Vulture OWN HIS OWN, to leading him to the office. He puts the suit on HIMSELF and beats vulture HIMSELF.

He does not in any way shape or form, "give up".


Not on page. We only knew they were growing closer because of the recaps LOL.

He put away like 2 or 2 dozen crooks working for Rose. He apprehended both Hobgoblins, defeated the entire sinister six, solo, I might add, freed that hypermind guy from manipulation. Thats just the first 6 issues. You really need to reread some of this stuff dude.

The Tombstone arc was competently written. But Peter Parker should not be making deal with criminals. Peter can put Tombstone at the sight of a mass murder. He was there when Tombstone mowed down the Crime MasterÂ’s men, with the bodies drawn with execution-style bullet holes in their heads or lying in pools of blood.

Yet Peter then allows himself to be played by Tombstone - and then he lets Tombstone walk away scot free, based on a hypothetical gang war that may or may not happen - even though Peter knows itÂ’s not a hypothetical that Tombstone is a mass killer. Just like Peter let the Burglar go. Which is a fundamental betrayal of who Peter Parker should be.

Yeah no. Tombstone has connections and influence, Peter is already beat to hell and is in no position to take Tombstone on by himself, and you literally state right here that its not a hypothegical because TS already proved it wasn't. He made the right call.

Because Felicia wasnÂ’t his girlfriend at the time! Not just a few months ago before ASM 900, we had Mary Jane and Black Cat: Beyond, in which Felicia said she was no longer interested in Peter that way. Then we had the first arc of WellsÂ’s run, in which Peter is moping over MJ and MJ is standing sadly at the window looking at Peter.

Then all of a sudden we get Felicia acting like a possessive jealous clinging girlfriend, picking cat fights with Bobbi Morse, when there had been nothing to suggest that was the state of the relationship between her and Peter?!

That is the epitome of bad writing. ItÂ’s not motivated, itÂ’s not on the page, it doesnÂ’t follow from the previous story, and it is out of character.

Black Cat barely even shows up in the first six issues which all take place back to back over the course of like two days. All of this takes place a YEAR after the rabin stuff. Immediately after the first six issue we get the anniversary issue where the reveal happens. So now basic reveals are bad? Its been a year, and she csnt contact him in the first arc because he is busy and gets kidnapped. Where's the problem?

No one is doing that. People have been drawing on examples taken directly from the text.



Agreed! Your head canon is yours!

Its not a headcanon when you're getting stuff factually wrong about the issues lol. You are proving my point with this.

These are almost all either nitpicking, based on factually incorrect info or complaining about information we don't have yet and a reveal being cleverly set up as a reveal. Some of it is valid but this is hardly enough to make the case of this run being the worst spidey anything. I had to take out some stuff due to length.

[TinkerSpider]

people will show up to things for folks they have problems with. And even given the folks that were there its mostly Peter's friends, not spider mans. No one said everyone hated him. But they have issues with him, and whats also not being addressed is HE has issues with THEM. Thats what happens with Johnny in issue 1. Peter has problems with then and he's not entirely ok with them not helping him with whatever happened. Also, another note is he shows up on time for that birthday. Lol.

Basically the folks that show up are people hes in relationships with for a long time. And none of them csn provide for him what Norman can anyway. Which is money. You're also leaving out that Norman WASNT invited here, which shod show you even more that he and Peter aren't "buddies" like you're making it out to be.

How do you know Norman wasn’t invited and that he was busy but sent a gift?

How do you know Peter has issues with every single person at the party that precludes working for them or asking them to help him get a job or to borrow money, etc. etc. etc? What does Peter have against Anna Maria or Betty? Why is Norman his only option- especially, as you note, he may not have even rated an invite to the party? Why can’t Robbie or Jonah hire him, as they have done in the past?

Why does that matter if they are his friends or Spider-Man’s? What does that have to do with Peter needing to make money?

And the reason you can’t answer those questions is because Wells does not provide enough information. So you had to head canon this scenario. You filled inmdetails that aren’t in the text and images.

I agree Peter & Norman’s relationship is depicted as transactional, especially on Peter’s sidr.

They have addressed it. Norman first really steps into Peter's life in issue 7.

Peter gives into Norman and babysits Norman’s grandkids in issue 2, I believe. First time Peter makes a token protest, then gives in and gives the murderer of Gwen Stacy whatever he wants

Not THREE PAGinto the issue Peter confronts Norman, practically getting physical and telling him to stay away from the folks he cares about, and asks if this is sort of trick while implying a threat. Later after storming out Peter muses that he should have gone even further. Its only after Peter has actually asked Norman to don a suit to being to him, and Norman refuses that he begins to trust him more. Theres a pretty significant bit of storytelling there that gets ignored where one of Norman's traits is his constant pull towards the goblin. Peter *perceives* that Norman was able to cleary resist that, even when Peter was the one requesting him to don the suit.

Again, Peter feeling different about trusting Norman and accepting the suit after Norman doesn’t bring it to him is headcanon. Not on page. Especially since Peter trusts Norman enough to beg for the suit before Norman tells him he won’t bring it to Peter.

Norman’s pull toward the goblin is explored in Gold Goblin, not ASM. Norman only contradicts himself in ASM by saying he can’t get into the suit, then lo and behold he does LOL.

So no, it’s not just Peter being an oaf and going along with anything. He is analyzing the behaviors of someone he knows well and seeing a change. This is yet another thing that gets completed ignored so more people can call Norman his "sugar daddy". Its blatant ignoring of story details like this that frustrate me about the criticism of this bookbecause it comes off like people aren't putting any effort in to see whats being put on the table.

I agree, I’m not headcanoning although I could. Your version of ASM sounds pretty good, however. I wish I were reading it.

Those stories all took a while to resolve too. This is just a thing where you have to be patient and let the material playout.

MJ came to comfort Peter the issue after Gwen died. That was the resolution of the story.

The black suit saga took seven issues. The FF removed the suit - the climax of Freytag’s Pyramid - from Peter in the same issue in which Peter discovered the suit was manipulating him without his consent. That was following by an issue of falling action - MJ confessing her back story to Peter - and ended with the resolution of Peter putting on his red-and-blues, ready to take on the world and fight again, thus making him whole and ready to begin climbing the pyramid again.

And no, he actually encountered Gwen again. Like the actual Gwen, and she was taken away from him again. So yeah ill give him a pass on needed some fresh air.

First he encountered the Progenitor wearing Gwen’s face, and it was to the Progenitor he spoke about Norman.

And yes, Wells made Gwen just a girl-shaped reward for Peter, without any agency, yanked out of her afterlife without her consent judging by her dialogue. It’s a rather misogynist treatment of Gwen.

Plus, didnt we want relatable stuff? Throwing yourself into a job to take your mind off personal issues and stress qualifies in my book. You csnt have it both ways. You can't say Peter isn't relatable enough and then complain when he has grounded relatable reasons for doing things out of the norm.

How do you know Peter is doing that? Again, you created that motivation for Peter. He has said nothing about work being a stress reliever. For all we know, he just loves working for Norman and thinks he’s the world’s best boss. Or Kamala is kicking his butt and he’s ashamed of being shown up by a high schooler depicted as if she is thirty years old. Or he just really likes engines even though Wells apparently forgot Peter is a biochemist and not a mechanical engineer.

We don’t know.

We don’t have any insight into Peter. Therefore, he’s not relatable because he is just a cardboard cypher, a pawn Wells moves about the page willynilly as it suits him.

Thats false. Norman gives Peter the true answer in the issue and it has nothing to do with tracking.

Norman said he can’t track Peter due to Peter’s wishes. And then later he tracks Peter. I can pull the panels if you wish.

Also, did you actually even read issue 7 and 8?

Here’s what I read:

Peter forgets he is a competent hero who has been doing the superhero thing for over a decade now and Wells forgets how Peter’s spider-sense works (but then, so do a lot of people, it’s pretty inconsistent).

Peter forgets he’s been dropped from a high height by the Vulture and unable to use his web shooters before (see JMD’s far superior Funeral Arrangements) and even though Peter breaks his fall, he is so ineffectual and pathetic that after one slam into a chimney - even though he’s taken far worse - he screams at Norman he’s going to die and demands his fancy suit to save him.

Peter then shows the only glimpse of quick thinking we’ll see and jumps on Toomes to steer him - although Peter could have done that without moaning to Norman first - so he can be rescued by the fancy suit, even though Peter could have used the steering trick to ram Toomes into walls or other objects to take Toomes down without needing to be rescued by a fancy suit, like Peter has done throughout most of his superhero life when he’s not being written like a nerfed pwned amateur.

He does not in any way shape or form, "give up".

He screams at Norman he is going to die and begs Norman to rescue him.

That is giving up.

He put away like 2 or 2 dozen crooks working for Rose.

He was suckered into taking down Tombstone’s opponents for him, which is…yikes. And he did it by assaulting people without provocation. You can’t just assault people who are going about their daily business even if they are criminals.

He apprehended both Hobgoblins

No, he once again said he was going to die and lay defeated on the ground. Norman had to save him. Therefore, the apprehension of the Hobgoblins really belongs to Norman.

defeated the entire sinister six, solo, I might add

No, the Living Brain magicked them back to wherever the Living Brain found them.

freed that hypermind guy from manipulation.

I don’t recall the hypermind guy in a Wells written issue, so I’ll give you that one.

Thats just the first 6 issues. You really need to reread some of this stuff dude.

Hobgoblins was issues 11-13.

Yeah no. Tombstone has connections and influence, Peter is already beat to hell and is in no position to take Tombstone on by himself, and you literally state right here that its not a hypothegical because TS already proved it wasn't. He made the right call.

By letting a mass murderer who gunned down dozens (that issue was published on the day of the Uvalvde school massacre, by the way, not that Marvel could know that ahead of time) walk freely?!?!

Spider-Man?!?!?

Yeah, we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one. A lot.

Black Cat barely even shows up in the first six issues which all take place back to back over the course of like two days. All of this takes place a YEAR after the rabin stuff. Immediately after the first six issue we get the anniversary issue where the reveal happens. So now basic reveals are bad? Its been a year, and she csnt contact him in the first arc because he is busy and gets kidnapped. Where's the problem?

Felicia shows up in issue 4 and 5. But the Felicia is issue 6/900 is a completely different character.

The problem is that is bad writing. Felicia’s depiction in ASM 6/900 is one of the most clear cut examples of how poorly crafted Wells’s storytelling and characterization are in this run. It’s not how serial storytelling works; it’s nonsensical, a non sequitur. It’s insulting to the reader who puts in time and money and expects a coherent, cohesive story with recognizable characters in return.

[Lee]

First, the problem with the Norman stuff is that it's played straight. Peter is treated like some forgiveness machine and has no problem working for Norman. And it's a problem because Norman is a unique kind of evil.

He isn't. He magically had all the sin removed from him in the previous run. He's no longer the same person. That's the conflict.

[Frontier]

He isn't. He magically had all the sin removed from him in the previous run. He's no longer the same person. That's the conflict.

I think if we saw more of Peter being actually conflicted it would mean more.

[TinkerSpider]

He isn't. He magically had all the sin removed from him in the previous run. He's no longer the same person. That's the conflict.

You might want to read Gold Goblin. It’s also one of the best things to have come out of the Spider-office lately.

I think if we saw more of Peter being actually conflicted it would mean more.

100% co-signed.