Doctor Strange vs Doctor Doom

[MichaelC]

Doctor Strange vs Doctor Doom

[Sharpandpointies]

Since this is a no-prep match and Stephen seems to be operating at roughly his Classic levels of power (he's about equal to Clea, Clea hasn't been downgraded over the years), Strange takes this one.

[Powerboy]

Doctor Strange vs Doctor Doom

I'm not up on current incarnations. But, going with "Classic" versions (when do classic versions end anyway?) and with what Sharp said, I'd give it to Strange.

Off the cuff, my memories of Secret Wars are pretty dim. Strange (pun intended) that Dr. Strange wasn't far more significant.

[Beadle]

I'm not up on current incarnations. But, going with "Classic" versions (when do classic versions end anyway?) and with what Sharp said, I'd give it to Strange.

Off the cuff, my memories of Secret Wars are pretty dim. Strange (pun intended) that Dr. Strange wasn't far more significant.

If you mean the original Secret Wars, it’s not that strange. Because he wasn’t even there.

I mean… Beyonder just chose the people he wanted there (with seemingly no upper limit - Galactus was also just plonked onto Battleworld against his will). Hulk was the only one of the original Defenders there.

[Sharpandpointies]

As usual, Beadle nails it.

Stephen wasn't part of the original Secret Wars series, likely due to one or more of the following editorial reasons:

1. Too powerful, being smack in the middle of the Classic Strange era (but Galactus? Galactus was taken out of the game really early on);
2. Didn't fit the superheroes thing; Stephen really didn't hang out much with the heroes/fight with any of the normal villains at this point in his career (this comes later);
3. Didn't fit the sci-fi theme; the Secret Wars stuff felt really SF-ish, not a lot of mystical stuff at all;
4. Really wasn't that popular; at the time, he was in a bi-monthly series that was barely hanging on (Dr. Strange MotMA).

Roll around to Secret Wars II - The Annoyance Returns! and (as I recall) Stephen actually spends a solid 3 issues of his own series (ie, 6 issues of that comic) in the Dark Dimension (it was an extended storyline), skips another issue of SW II due to being bimonthly (so that's 7), and has a Secret Wars II tie-in on the next issue (that's 8 issues of SWII out of a 9 issue series). He then basically ignores whatever is left of SWII at this point, doesn't appear in any of the actual Secret Wars II comics, and likely ends up being one of the people who gets incinerated by David Hassleho*coughs*The Beyonder when he throws his temper tantrum, only to be brought back by Owen Reece in the series epilogue.

Again, while he fit the series BETTER, he still didn't fit it well save for the one tie-in where he got to be an enlightenment catalyst for the Beyonder, if we can say that (haha, no).

[Powerboy]

If you mean the original Secret Wars, it’s not that strange. Because he wasn’t even there.

I mean… Beyonder just chose the people he wanted there (with seemingly no upper limit - Galactus was also just plonked onto Battleworld against his will). Hulk was the only one of the original Defenders there.

ARGH! I knew it. Bad memory strikes again. I didn't think he was there so I did a quick search, specifying the original SW and the site said he was there. If he had been, the villains would have been contained and they would have been home.

[big_adventure]

ARGH! I knew it. Bad memory strikes again. I didn't think he was there so I did a quick search, specifying the original SW and the site said he was there. If he had been, the villains would have been contained and they would have been home.

Weeeeeell big G couldn't do that (thus, pure power well beyond even Classic Strange), Enchantress couldn't (magic), so I'm not thinking Strange would have managed.

[Sharpandpointies]

Galactus didn’t manage it because Galactus didn’t care about the game. ^_^

He got his butt kicked by the Beyonder in the first issue, spent some time trying to recoup his power, tried to eat his own ship as I recall, and had his lunch stolen by Doom.

[Jcogginsa]

Since this is a no-prep match and Stephen seems to be operating at roughly his Classic levels of power (he's about equal to Clea, Clea hasn't been downgraded over the years), Strange takes this one.

Wait, was Stephen's power downgrade an in-universe thing? I assumed it was just a change to how he was presented in comics

Galactus didn’t manage it because Galactus didn’t care about the game. ^_^

He got his butt kicked by the Beyonder in the first issue, spent some time trying to recoup his power, tried to eat his own ship as I recall, and had his lunch stolen by Doom.

Yeah, Doom stole Galactus' power as step one of his plans to steal the Beyonder's power

[Wildling]

Wait, was Stephen's power downgrade an in-universe thing? I assumed it was just a change to how he was presented in comics

Feats are the feats. Strange did his best beforehand by early 2000s but once the Civil War Avengers team split happened, Strange was editorially commanded to be an Avenger and his feats suffered a lot afterwards. It took him years to recover from that, as far as I know only until recent years if we're talking "Classic Strange".

[big_adventure]

Galactus didn’t manage it because Galactus didn’t care about the game. ^_^

He got his butt kicked by the Beyonder in the first issue, spent some time trying to recoup his power, tried to eat his own ship as I recall, and had his lunch stolen by Doom.

I know all of that - and Big G specifically couldn't escape either. He tried to attack, got slapped like Chris Rock at the Oscars, and then was thereafter stuck on the planet just like the rest of the heroes and villains. That's why he stood there for days summoning Taa 2, converted it to eat it for the power ("most powerful source of energy in the universe"), Doom intercepted the flow of power using parts of Klaw's body cut into lenses, and then Doom attacked Pre Donny Beyonder...

Doom and Reed, with access to all the tech they found there, couldn't escape either. It was part of Beyonder's plan.

[Dark Soul # 7]

I know all of that - and Big G specifically couldn't escape either. He tried to attack, got slapped like Chris Rock at the Oscars, and then was thereafter stuck on the planet just like the rest of the heroes and villains. That's why he stood there for days summoning Taa 2, converted it to eat it for the power ("most powerful source of energy in the universe"), Doom intercepted the flow of power using parts of Klaw's body cut into lenses, and then Doom attacked Pre Donny Beyonder...

Doom and Reed, with access to all the tech they found there, couldn't escape either. It was part of Beyonder's plan.

Beyonder's plan being:

1. Put colorful mortals and "gods" with different morality (whatever that is) on a planet (have not decided if I should create it from nothing or puzzle it together from other parts to make them feel more at home in familiar environments).

2. Promise to fulfill their limited dreams and ambitions.

3. Sit back and enjoy the spectacle. Should I limit myself so that I feel hunger and conjure up some "popcorn".

A perfect and flawless plan.

[Beadle]

It sounds dumb, but compared to his Soul-Glo Jumpsuit Donny Osmond version in Secret Wars 2, it’s a work of genius.

[Sharpandpointies]

Wait, was Stephen's power downgrade an in-universe thing? I assumed it was just a change to how he was presented in comics

In addition to Wildling's explanation - which is all true - Stephen went through a very explicit downgrade in his own series (like, a couple of times, annoyingly - Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme). Then, when he joined the Avengers (his magic bizarrely altered yet again), there are points in the storyline where he notes he has weakened. Why? I don't recall, brain bleach, it was pretty bad. Anyway, after that we get a rolling bunch of miniseries with Stephen where he has lost his powers and needs to regain them (this happens a couple of times, yet again, each time with different magical systems/rules as each new writer tries to put their own Stamp of Coolness™ on Strange), culminating in him going off into outer space to find new magic because - you guessed it - he has once again lost his magic.

*beats head into wall*

This series does, however, re-establish SOMEWHAT the status quo of Stephen in terms of power and the use of some more classic Marvel magic (with some alterations; also, it has decent writing for Strange, himself). It does this by having him work next to Clea for a time, Clea being shown at her own classic levels of power and never really having gone through a downgrade, and them being demonstrated as roughly equal. Also with them facing off against Galactus, Dormammu, Strange doing some REALLY wacky things, etc.

We then get to the Death of Doctor Strange, where he's Sorcerer Supreme again and comments 'How many times in the last few years have I lost my magic, only to regain it?' in what I can only imagine is a writer poking at the other storylines (said writer actually seeming to CARE about Stephen's continuity, the old stuff, etc). And again, presented as an equal (roughly) to dimensional tyrants and Clea, who is kind of a benign dictator. with her power - as always - at least somewhat on par with that of her mother.

Short answer? Yes, there has definitely been in-canon references to Stephen's power first decreasing, then getting completely messed up over and over again. And now it seems - SEEMS - like it might be at least somewhat back to where it was before, especially due to him being (again) presented as Clea's *wiggles hand* equal.

I know all of that - and Big G specifically couldn't escape either. He tried to attack, got slapped like Chris Rock at the Oscars, and then was thereafter stuck on the planet just like the rest of the heroes and villains. That's why he stood there for days summoning Taa 2, converted it to eat it for the power ("most powerful source of energy in the universe"), Doom intercepted the flow of power using parts of Klaw's body cut into lenses, and then Doom attacked Pre Donny Beyonder...

Doom and Reed, with access to all the tech they found there, couldn't escape either. It was part of Beyonder's plan.

This is not about 'escaping', but about the original comment from Powerboy that Classic Strange could have contained the villains and everyone would have gone home (which you might have misconstrued as being about escaping? Understandable, if so). Because - assuming the Beyonder dragged in Mordo rather than Furnace Face, for example - that's exactly what would have happened. PIS-off, Classic Strange would have rotfl-stomped his opposition (especially with the backup he would have had) ending the Beyonder's test, everyone goes home (rather, Beyonder buggers off, Strange then shuttles everyone home).

My point was that Galactus COULD have done the same, had he wished to play the game - as a 'villain', he could have simply obliterated the entire opposition, ended things, and survivors leave.

I wasn't saying that Classic Strange or Galactus could have escaped the test (they couldn't have); I was saying Galactus would have casually 'won' it if he had cared about it (Stephen, similarly, had the opposition been 'the same + Mordo').

[big_adventure]

This is not about 'escaping', but about the original comment from Powerboy that Classic Strange could have contained the villains and everyone would have gone home (which you might have misconstrued as being about escaping? Understandable, if so). Because - assuming the Beyonder dragged in Mordo rather than Furnace Face, for example - that's exactly what would have happened. PIS-off, Classic Strange would have rotfl-stomped his opposition (especially with the backup he would have had) ending the Beyonder's test, everyone goes home (rather, Beyonder buggers off, Strange then shuttles everyone home).

My point was that Galactus COULD have done the same, had he wished to play the game - as a 'villain', he could have simply obliterated the entire opposition, ended things, and survivors leave.

I wasn't saying that Classic Strange or Galactus could have escaped the test (they couldn't have); I was saying Galactus would have casually 'won' it if he had cared about it (Stephen, similarly, had the opposition been 'the same + Mordo').

Ah, yes, I misunderstood completely. Mea culpa, nothing to see here, these aren't the droids you're looking for, etc. :-)

Yes, I concur, Strange would have been great for the hero side, except of course, he still couldn't have done bupkis to Galactus. Beyonder, sadly, was so far beyond the puny beings he brought to play that he egregiously failed the Sesame Street "One of these things is not like the others" test. So much for omnipotence.