Is Flashpoint something that makes more sense for a younger Barry?

[bat39]

Random thought I've been having for a while now, especially in anticipation of the Flash(point) movie.

We're coming up on our third adaptation of Flashpoint now. The animated film 'Flashpoint Paradox' from 2013, which hewed pretty closely to the source material. The Flashpoint episode from the CW show. And now the upcoming film.

Its interesting that in the original story (and presumably, the animated film as well, though the chronology is a bit ambiguous there), its an older, experienced, veteran Barry who goes back in time and causes Flashpoint. While in the TV and film adaptations, its a relatively younger, inexperienced Barry who causes it. Grant Gustin's Barry had been the Flash for less than 2 years, and while its unclear how long Ezra Miller's Barry will have been the Flash when the movie begins, its likely not been that long either (at any rate, I doubt if Miller's Barry will have had the range of experience which most established versions of Barry had).

Which got me thinking...does it actually make more sense for a younger, less experienced Barry to impulsively make the decision to go back, save his mom, and inadvertently f#ck up the timeline?

Now its been ages since I read the comic story and the arc leading into it, so I don't remember what Barry's provocation to go back and change things was. Was it discovering that Thawne killed his mom and framed his dad (he only learnt that in 'Rebirth')? Possibly. Still, while perfectly possible, I find it a little hard to picture a veteran Barry who, by this point, had already died in COIE and just recently returned to life, who had gone through all kinds of crazy experiences, who was pretty well-versed in time-travel (admittedly not as well as Thawne, but still), who was a living legend of the superhero world, making such a rash and impulsive decision.

When I contrast this to the CW show, where a younger, less experienced Barry has just watched Zoom murder his father (and then meets Jay Garrick, who's his father's doppelganger), I find it a lot easier to believe he'd just impulsively go back in time to save his mom, irrespective of the consequences. He doesn't know a whole lot of about time-travel at this point and he doesn't care...he's just lost too much too quickly and reached his breaking point.

And I can easily picture Ezra Miller's Barry who, if anything, seems even less experienced and mature than Gustin's Barry was back during the show's Flashpoint episode, impulsively deciding to go back and save his mom, despite Batfleck warning him.

I dunno...just a thought.

[Hol]

Random thought I've been having for a while now, especially in anticipation of the Flash(point) movie.

We're coming up on our third adaptation of Flashpoint now. The animated film 'Flashpoint Paradox' from 2013, which hewed pretty closely to the source material. The Flashpoint episode from the CW show. And now the upcoming film.

Its interesting that in the original story (and presumably, the animated film as well, though the chronology is a bit ambiguous there), its an older, experienced, veteran Barry who goes back in time and causes Flashpoint. While in the TV and film adaptations, its a relatively younger, inexperienced Barry who causes it. Grant Gustin's Barry had been the Flash for less than 2 years, and while its unclear how long Ezra Miller's Barry will have been the Flash when the movie begins, its likely not been that long either (at any rate, I doubt if Miller's Barry will have had the range of experience which most established versions of Barry had).

Which got me thinking...does it actually make more sense for a younger, less experienced Barry to impulsively make the decision to go back, save his mom, and inadvertently f#ck up the timeline?

Now its been ages since I read the comic story and the arc leading into it, so I don't remember what Barry's provocation to go back and change things was. Was it discovering that Thawne killed his mom and framed his dad (he only learnt that in 'Rebirth')? Possibly. Still, while perfectly possible, I find it a little hard to picture a veteran Barry who, by this point, had already died in COIE and just recently returned to life, who had gone through all kinds of crazy experiences, who was pretty well-versed in time-travel (admittedly not as well as Thawne, but still), who was a living legend of the superhero world, making such a rash and impulsive decision.

When I contrast this to the CW show, where a younger, less experienced Barry has just watched Zoom murder his father (and then meets Jay Garrick, who's his father's doppelganger), I find it a lot easier to believe he'd just impulsively go back in time to save his mom, irrespective of the consequences. He doesn't know a whole lot of about time-travel at this point and he doesn't care...he's just lost too much too quickly and reached his breaking point.

And I can easily picture Ezra Miller's Barry who, if anything, seems even less experienced and mature than Gustin's Barry was back during the show's Flashpoint episode, impulsively deciding to go back and save his mom, despite Batfleck warning him.

I dunno...just a thought.

Great idea for a thread topic. I have never thought poorly of comic Barry for doing what he did. it wasn't like his mom was killed by someone else when he was a kid and he was changing history for the first time. He had just found out that he lived a life with both his parents alive and well and Thawne went back and killed his mom. In his mind he was fixing something and he had no idea of the drastic repercussions that would come from these actions. Why would he? We all read the comics prior to Flash Rebirth and it wasn't the Flashpoint reality.

[astro@work]

I guess part of the answer would rest in "at what age does Barry find out Zoom caused his mother's death and father's incarceration?", since this was his motivation to undo those events.

That said, it would seem like the older Barry was, the more his experience would tell him not to tamper with the timestream.
A younger inexperienced Barry would be more likely to do so...BUT in the OG Flashpoint story it was indeed older Barry who did it.

If you ignore the actual story, I see your logic though.

[Frontier]

How about no Barry does a Flashpoint for a good long while?

[Lightning Rider]

I don't think he can be blamed at any age for wanting to correct the timeline. I wish he had succeeded so us fans could be spared infinite incarnations of dead-mama-drama weighing on his character.

[Tomkatie]

Great idea for a thread topic. I have never thought poorly of comic Barry for doing what he did. it wasn't like his mom was killed by someone else when he was a kid and he was changing history for the first time. He had just found out that he lived a life with both his parents alive and well and Thawne went back and killed his mom. In his mind he was fixing something and he had no idea of the drastic repercussions that would come from these actions. Why would he? We all read the comics prior to Flash Rebirth and it wasn't the Flashpoint reality.

This

I'd honestly argue that Flashpoint works *only* for comic Barry. I'll admit to being a Flashpoint comic apologist, but his motivation only really makes sense with the setup from Flash: Rebirth (and some of the Brightest Day run) when Barry learns that his "dead mother origin" isn't supposed to be his origin, but is the result of Thawne traveling back and messing with the timeline. From Barry's perspective, saving his mom isn't altering the timeline, but fixing the timeline that Thawne screwed up. And honestly it should work, cuz Barry is a seasoned time traveler since his first Showcase appearance. But, because this is comics, only now does Johns introduce the "bullet through a windshield" metaphor of cracking history, which has still never been adequately explained.

Imo the motivation falls apart with modern live action Flash interpretations, which use the "dead mother origin" from the get-go. We don't have the background to know or care about his parents living, and it does feel like Barry is trying to change the past and screw up the timeline. We'll have to see how the movie handles it, but aside from maybe the animated movie, no Flashpoint adaptation has made the decision not feel selfish

[BohemiaDrinker]

This

I'd honestly argue that Flashpoint works *only* for comic Barry. I'll admit to being a Flashpoint comic apologist, but his motivation only really makes sense with the setup from Flash: Rebirth (and some of the Brightest Day run) when Barry learns that his "dead mother origin" isn't supposed to be his origin, but is the result of Thawne traveling back and messing with the timeline. From Barry's perspective, saving his mom isn't altering the timeline, but fixing the timeline that Thawne screwed up. And honestly it should work, cuz Barry is a seasoned time traveler since his first Showcase appearance. But, because this is comics, only now does Johns introduce the "bullet through a windshield" metaphor of cracking history, which has still never been adequately explained.

Pretty much this. Having a trauma like that suddenly "implanted" in you retroactvely at adult age could really **** up a person. That said, I wish Barry would just save his mom and be done with it.

[MajorHoy]

I guess part of the answer would rest in "at what age does Barry find out Zoom caused his mother's death and father's incarceration?", since this was his motivation to undo those events.

That said, it would seem like the older Barry was, the more his experience would tell him not to tamper with the timestream.
A younger inexperienced Barry would be more likely to do so...BUT in the OG Flashpoint story it was indeed older Barry who did it.

If you ignore the actual story, I see your logic though.

But people are missing a major point here: it's not that Barry should have known better than to mess with the timestream. It's that Zoom did mess with the timestream and was able to do so without any other repercussions. That was something that hadn't happened in previous time-travel stories.
Barry was, theoretically, going back in time and would have been correcting Zoom's change to the timestream.

[Frontier]

This

I'd honestly argue that Flashpoint works *only* for comic Barry. I'll admit to being a Flashpoint comic apologist, but his motivation only really makes sense with the setup from Flash: Rebirth (and some of the Brightest Day run) when Barry learns that his "dead mother origin" isn't supposed to be his origin, but is the result of Thawne traveling back and messing with the timeline. From Barry's perspective, saving his mom isn't altering the timeline, but fixing the timeline that Thawne screwed up. And honestly it should work, cuz Barry is a seasoned time traveler since his first Showcase appearance. But, because this is comics, only now does Johns introduce the "bullet through a windshield" metaphor of cracking history, which has still never been adequately explained.

Imo the motivation falls apart with modern live action Flash interpretations, which use the "dead mother origin" from the get-go. We don't have the background to know or care about his parents living, and it does feel like Barry is trying to change the past and screw up the timeline. We'll have to see how the movie handles it, but aside from maybe the animated movie, no Flashpoint adaptation has made the decision not feel selfish

Just from my perspective it made a lot of sense, at least emotionally, why he did it in the TV show even though a part of you was rooting for him not to do it (but you knew he was going to). But that also had Thawne deliberately messing with the timeline in multiple ways.

The funny thing is they actually wrote a tie-in novel to the show that took place in a timeline where Barry didn't cause Flashpoint at the end of season 2. Fun stuff.

[ducklord]

But people are missing a major point here: it's not that Barry should have known better than to mess with the timestream. It's that Zoom did mess with the timestream and was able to do so without any other repercussions. That was something that hadn't happened in previous time-travel stories.
Barry was, theoretically, going back in time and would have been correcting Zoom's change to the timestream.

At the time, my issue wasn't with ultra-veteran Barry messing with the time stream when he should've known better... it was with the half-cocked nature of it. Thawne revelaed that he'd killed Nora back in Flash: Rebirth. Barry then stewed around in the present, doing super-hero stuff and not really doing anything about it. Then Thawne showed up, taunted him a little, and BOOM Barry's off to the past to muck things up.

Pre Flashpoint, Barry was an exceptionally seasoned time traveller. Him popping off into the timestream to "fix" his past without so much as a quick check in with the JLA or his family, or even so much as a solid plan, felt like something Bart would do, not the gorram father of the Silver Age. And Barry knows at this point that Zoom's temporal changes aren't the usual time shenanigans - he's been told about the whole "Negative Speed Force Makes Retcons Permanent" thing. Has he investiagted whether these changes *can* be reversed, or come up with a plan to research whether Thawne was lying? Nope. He just bolts off like a Speed Force bull in a china shop.

I mean, as an excuse for a Elseworlds-esque summer crossover, I suppose I could excuse some plot-induced stupidity. But as a catalyst for a (not good) hard reboot of the entire DCU, it was superheroic malpractice.

It's a good thing all that blame got trasfered over to the naked blue guy.

[Tomkatie]

Just from my perspective it made a lot of sense, at least emotionally, why he did it in the TV show even though a part of you was rooting for him not to do it (but you knew he was going to). But that also had Thawne deliberately messing with the timeline in multiple ways.

The funny thing is they actually wrote a tie-in novel to the show that took place in a timeline where Barry didn't cause Flashpoint at the end of season 2. Fun stuff.

Oh word, I didn't know they made a tie-in novel! Do you remember what it was called?

It did make sense emotionally (if not logically) that Barry would decide to change the past after blaming himself for his dad's death, but dang yeah I did not want him to . I honestly thought the Season 1 finale was a perfect middle ground of almost adapting Flashpoint but instead having Barry stop himself and comfort his mom as she died

[Refrax5]

People always forget that Mirror Master had messed with Barry's mind with that mirror weapon immediately beforehand that showed him a timeline where his mother was alive and was said to work as a "slow acting poison" on the mind of the person exposed to it. So comic Barry, in addition to only recently finding out Zoom was responsible for killing his mom (in addition to sensing the change in the timeline in Rebirth and being emotionally unbalanced as a result), had his mind influenced by Mirror Master. A lot of things sent him over the edge in the comics.

[Tomkatie]

People always forget that Mirror Master had messed with Barry's mind with that mirror weapon immediately beforehand that showed him a timeline where his mother was alive and was said to work as a "slow acting poison" on the mind of the person exposed to it. So comic Barry, in addition to only recently finding out Zoom was responsible for killing his mom (in addition to sensing the change in the timeline in Rebirth and being emotionally unbalanced as a result), had his mind influenced by Mirror Master. A lot of things sent him over the edge in the comics.

Plus the Renegades telling him point-blank "you should do more to stop crimes in the past" right after he saw the mirror vision

[bat39]

This

I'd honestly argue that Flashpoint works *only* for comic Barry. I'll admit to being a Flashpoint comic apologist, but his motivation only really makes sense with the setup from Flash: Rebirth (and some of the Brightest Day run) when Barry learns that his "dead mother origin" isn't supposed to be his origin, but is the result of Thawne traveling back and messing with the timeline. From Barry's perspective, saving his mom isn't altering the timeline, but fixing the timeline that Thawne screwed up. And honestly it should work, cuz Barry is a seasoned time traveler since his first Showcase appearance. But, because this is comics, only now does Johns introduce the "bullet through a windshield" metaphor of cracking history, which has still never been adequately explained.

Imo the motivation falls apart with modern live action Flash interpretations, which use the "dead mother origin" from the get-go. We don't have the background to know or care about his parents living, and it does feel like Barry is trying to change the past and screw up the timeline. We'll have to see how the movie handles it, but aside from maybe the animated movie, no Flashpoint adaptation has made the decision not feel selfish

But the CW show also has the aspect of Thawne going back and changing the past in the first place (though you're right that from our perspective as an audience the show starts with Nora's death being the 'true origin', while in the comics we have decades of history where we know that wasn't the case). But it's made clear in the show's Flashpoint that Barry is 'taking back' what Thawne took from him...his mistake is that he didn't understand the consequences of messing with the timeline the way Thawne does. If anything, it's the animated film that makes his choice seem more selfish because there it seems that Thawne wasn't the one responsible for Nora's murder and that she was killed in an ordinary break-in that was always the 'original timeline'. I dunno how the movie will handle Nora's murder, especially since Thawne doesn't appear to be in it.

At the time, my issue wasn't with ultra-veteran Barry messing with the time stream when he should've known better... it was with the half-cocked nature of it. Thawne revelaed that he'd killed Nora back in Flash: Rebirth. Barry then stewed around in the present, doing super-hero stuff and not really doing anything about it. Then Thawne showed up, taunted him a little, and BOOM Barry's off to the past to muck things up.

Pre Flashpoint, Barry was an exceptionally seasoned time traveller. Him popping off into the timestream to "fix" his past without so much as a quick check in with the JLA or his family, or even so much as a solid plan, felt like something Bart would do, not the gorram father of the Silver Age. And Barry knows at this point that Zoom's temporal changes aren't the usual time shenanigans - he's been told about the whole "Negative Speed Force Makes Retcons Permanent" thing. Has he investiagted whether these changes *can* be reversed, or come up with a plan to research whether Thawne was lying? Nope. He just bolts off like a Speed Force bull in a china shop.

I mean, as an excuse for a Elseworlds-esque summer crossover, I suppose I could excuse some plot-induced stupidity. But as a catalyst for a (not good) hard reboot of the entire DCU, it was superheroic malpractice.

It's a good thing all that blame got trasfered over to the naked blue guy.

Yeah, I think you've articulated a lot of my thoughts about this better than I did in the original post.

In contrast to the scenario you've described, on the CW show Barry was literally at his father's wake. He's still relatively young and inexperienced as a superhero. He's time-traveled a few times but doesn't really know a lot about it, nor does anyone else on the team. His closest ally in the superhero community is Oliver Queen, who wouldn't be able to give him much guidance on this subject. So it makes a lot more sense there for him to impulsively go back and change the past like a bull in the China shop.

Oh word, I didn't know they made a tie-in novel! Do you remember what it was called?

It did make sense emotionally (if not logically) that Barry would decide to change the past after blaming himself for his dad's death, but dang yeah I did not want him to . I honestly thought the Season 1 finale was a perfect middle ground of almost adapting Flashpoint but instead having Barry stop himself and comfort his mom as she died

The fact that he went back once already and didn't save his mom in the Season 1 finale makes the moment when he does go back and do so a year later all the more powerful! It really drives home the fact that he's reached a breaking point, that the temptation is now just too great for him to resist. Also, from a meta perspective, the audience probably assumed that the show wouldn't be going down the Flashpoint route after teasing it in the Season 1 finale. Then all of a sudden...BOOM! It happens.

Nine seasons in, I think that moment remains possibly the show's best cliffhanger ending! It's just a shame that their handling of the actual Flashpoint story was mediocre at best...

[Buried Alien]

From comic book Barry's point of view, as for readers here on Earth-Reality, the tampered timeline in which Thawne murdered his mother and framed his father was an aberration that Thawne caused. The true original timeline, from both Barry's perspective and ours, was the Silver/Bronze Age Pre-COIE/Post-COIE timeline that was the only one anybody knew from 1956 until 2011: the one in which Barry's parents were alive and well throughout his life and even seemingly outlived him after his "death" in COIE. That changed ONLY because of Thawne's tampering, which did NOT take effect until after Barry's return in FINAL CRISIS. Therefore, Barry's intent was ONLY to correct an aberration that Thawne maliciously and purposely caused and restore the timeline to what it originally had and should always have been. Barry could not have foreseen all the subsequent complications his attempts at correcting the timeline would cause (most of which were influenced by external agents such as Thawne, the Negative Speed Force, Pandora, and Dr. Manhattan).

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)