Is Flashpoint something that makes more sense for a younger Barry?

[The Darknight Detective]

I'm not sure of the wording. I think the key thing is that Barry knew that these temporal shenanigans were different than the usual "Per Degaton did something stupid in the past and now we have to undo it" situation. Veteran that he was, he should've known he was playing fire... Time Fire(tm).

But there was nothing stated that I recall that would say indisputably that Barry would mess things up. The worst would be what Superman got when he tried to change things - nothing. With that said, if someone could point to something definitive, then I will say Barry erred (like the TV version who had been warned).

[bat39]

But there was nothing stated that I recall that would say indisputably that Barry would mess things up. The worst would be what Superman got when he tried to change things - nothing. With that said, if someone could point to something definitive, then I will say Barry erred (like the TV version who had been warned).

The funny thing is, TV Barry hadn't been warned. In fact, a year earlier, he'd been planning to do precisely just that, with (almost) his entire team's support. The only reason he didn't save his mother in the Season 1 finale was because his future self from 2024 warned him against doing so with a gesture. He showed restraint in not changing the timeline as a result...but that restraint vanished a year later when Zoom killed his father.

Actually, it's only after causing and then reversing Flashpoint that Jay Garrick explains to Barry the negative consequences of messing with the timeline. And the events of Season 3 with Savitar further reinforce the idea that time-travel isn't something to mess around with. Thereafter, Barry has largely been a lot more restrained in his use of time-travel to alter the timeline.

The point is that it made sense for the younger, less experienced Barry of the TV show to go back in a fit of rage and change the past because no one had told him it was a bad idea before the fact. In fact, he'd already had a chance to do it (with everyone's consent), but had chosen not to...so it could be interpreted as him taking back that choice a year later.

[The Darknight Detective]

The funny thing is, TV Barry hadn't been warned. In fact, a year earlier, he'd been planning to do precisely just that, with (almost) his entire team's support. The only reason he didn't save his mother in the Season 1 finale was because his future self from 2024 warned him against doing so with a gesture. He showed restraint in not changing the timeline as a result...but that restraint vanished a year later when Zoom killed his father.

Right, but his future self did give him that warning. Now it's understandable that he ignored it later on, but that doesn't give Barry a total pass, IMO.

[Lightning Rider]

I haven't watched Season 9 yet but...we never see our Barry go back in time and make that gesture to his past self, right? Kind of a plot hole if he never ends up doing it.

[The Darknight Detective]

I haven't watched Season 9 yet but...we never see our Barry go back in time and make that gesture to his past self, right? Kind of a plot hole if he never ends up doing it.

I wouldn't be shocked if the showrunners have forgotten all about it.

[Refrax5]

But there was nothing stated that I recall that would say indisputably that Barry would mess things up. The worst would be what Superman got when he tried to change things - nothing. With that said, if someone could point to something definitive, then I will say Barry erred (like the TV version who had been warned).

Not indisputably, but Rebirth established that Barry couldn't use his powers to change the past and that the timestream would fight back against any attempt to use the Speed Force to do it. It doesn't really jive with past depictions of Barry's powers, but that's the modern continuity. Thawne's powers work differently and allow him to alter past events. So Barry forcing it caused massive damage.

[Restingvoice]

Trying to save his parents from time travelling murderer does sound like something impulsive a younger and less experienced speedster would pull... consciously

[Dred]

Thawne isn't a 'regular character' though, but the Flash's arch-nemesis, and someone who spend years obsessively studying everything about the Flash and the Speed Force before tapping into it himself.

Except that isn't true. Thawne had a whole career, lived and died, without ever figuring out about the Speed Force. Only Savitar and Max figured it out, and by Max's tutelage Wally. Saying Thawne spent years figuring it out was stupid because literally the first thing he did after being set free in Blackest Night was kill Barry's mom. It was retconned that he created his own version of the Speed Force when he recreated Barry's accident because it was also retconned that Barry stupidly made the Speed Force himself. Both retcons of which were narratively defunct messes that made no sense and should've never happened.

Thawne was never the expert on these things. Johns just retroactively made it so because the entire premise of Flash Rebirth was to strip everything down from every other Flash character and centralize it on Barry, so the Speed Force becomes all about him, and to place Thawne above every other villain it becomes all about Thawne vs Barry even more than it already was. Savitar? Max Mercury? Who gives a ****, those guys don't matter anymore, it's Barry time, baby!

Not indisputably, but Rebirth established that Barry couldn't use his powers to change the past and that the timestream would fight back against any attempt to use the Speed Force to do it. It doesn't really jive with past depictions of Barry's powers, but that's the modern continuity. Thawne's powers work differently and allow him to alter past events. So Barry forcing it caused massive damage.

It doesn't jive with any iteration of a Speedster Pre-Flashpoint. There's been instances where time travel can and has caused catastrophic damage, but it is expressly the Flashes who have the know how and capability to change it. Chain Lightning works as a story on that foundation. Blitz and Rogue War from Geoff Johns' own run have distinct, relevant, and important time travel fiascos that impact the story directly and only cause minor changes in history.

It's not just past depictions of Barry, hell it's not even future depictions of Barry as he and Wally have both time traveled since and not blown up the universe. It's literally only Flashpoint. It's only his dead mom.

[The Darknight Detective]

Not indisputably, but Rebirth established that Barry couldn't use his powers to change the past and that the timestream would fight back against any attempt to use the Speed Force to do it. It doesn't really jive with past depictions of Barry's powers, but that's the modern continuity. Thawne's powers work differently and allow him to alter past events. So Barry forcing it caused massive damage.

But there wasn't anything that indicated it would cause massive danger is all I'm saying. Based on his past experiences nothing pointed to that can of worms. But DC wasn't concerned over that, so continuity be damned.

[Refrax5]

Except that isn't true. Thawne had a whole career, lived and died, without ever figuring out about the Speed Force. Only Savitar and Max figured it out, and by Max's tutelage Wally. Saying Thawne spent years figuring it out was stupid because literally the first thing he did after being set free in Blackest Night was kill Barry's mom. It was retconned that he created his own version of the Speed Force when he recreated Barry's accident because it was also retconned that Barry stupidly made the Speed Force himself. Both retcons of which were narratively defunct messes that made no sense and should've never happened.

Thawne was never the expert on these things. Johns just retroactively made it so because the entire premise of Flash Rebirth was to strip everything down from every other Flash character and centralize it on Barry, so the Speed Force becomes all about him, and to place Thawne above every other villain it becomes all about Thawne vs Barry even more than it already was. Savitar? Max Mercury? Who gives a ****, those guys don't matter anymore, it's Barry time, baby!



It doesn't jive with any iteration of a Speedster Pre-Flashpoint. There's been instances where time travel can and has caused catastrophic damage, but it is expressly the Flashes who have the know how and capability to change it. Chain Lightning works as a story on that foundation. Blitz and Rogue War from Geoff Johns' own run have distinct, relevant, and important time travel fiascos that impact the story directly and only cause minor changes in history.

It's not just past depictions of Barry, hell it's not even future depictions of Barry as he and Wally have both time traveled since and not blown up the universe. It's literally only Flashpoint. It's only his dead mom.

The Negative Speed Force wasn't a retcon. He created it at the beginning of Rebirth. He had never used it before that point. The first thing he did after he was resurrected was bring Barry back to life.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I would prefer not. If they can bring back Pandora without new52 baggage, it would be nice.

Then Pandora would be a good fit for a WW or a Justice League Dark story. Those feel like the most natural fit for her character.

To be honest, I could barely understand the concept of the Flashpoint Paradox, in the sense that what Barry did affected the timeline sideways, instead of affecting the timeline linearly.

Example: assuming that the Barry's mother was saved from being murdered when he was 11 years old, nothing before that point in time should be affected. The origins of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman should not have changed.

However, with the ripple effect in the timeline, moving forward, what could happen? I would venture to say that, IMO, you could make the argument that saving Barry's mother would lead directly to the creation of that world's version of the Crime Syndicate, if not in name, that things went bad to the point where:

* Government agents locate a young Clark and his Earth parents, Waco style. The heavy handiness of what happens does a Brightburn on Clark, thus creating Ultraman.
* Rather than keeping himself check, Bruce's need for vengeance corrupts him completely, thus joining the League of Assassins. After supplanting Ras Al-Gul as the head of the organization, Bruce returns to Gotham to take it over, for its own good, inspired by a Owl who kills a Bat one late night, and becomes Owlman.
* Betrayed and disillusioned by failure, you have the straw the breaks the proverbial camel's back, when Diana thought that Steve Trevor betrays her trust (not true). Now, full on Amazon, Diana becomes a female supremist (see: Arisa from the JUSTICE LEAGUE animated show). In the end, Diana becomes THE SUPER WOMAN.

Everything else depicted in the Flashpoint event can go on as normal, thanks to a more hostile Aquaman (depicted in the vein of Namor the Submariner). Basically, the Marvelization of DC's heroes.

Anyway, just some random thought...

It's a cool take.

[Thor-Ul]

Then Pandora would be a good fit for a WW or a Justice League Dark story. Those feel like the most natural fit for her character.

Indeed. In fact, I remember a old WOnder Woman story where a narrator bulit a parallel between the porign of Diana and the legend of Pandora.