Is Flashpoint something that makes more sense for a younger Barry?

[Tomkatie]

That's because, among other things, Pandora turned out to be sort of a Big Ol' Nothingburger of a character/plot device.
"I have to merge these universes and chuck out most of their history because there's a big crisis around the corner, and I have to make sure that all the heroes are young and inexperienced for, um reasons!"
"Ooh, spooky. What's this crisis all about?"
"I'll get to it. Did I mention that the Phantom Stranger is Judas Iscariot now, and that the Question may be an immortal?"
"We weren't really asking, but really, what's this crisis about?"
"I shoot guns! Bang bang!"
"The crisis?"
"Just kidding, it was a naked blue guy all along!"
"Fer chrissakes..."

I'd be really impressed with the upcoming Flash movie if it had the spheres to imply that Dr. Manhattan was behind the reboot at the end

Pandora really went from universe rewriter/cameoing watcher to C-list character in a book nobody bought to a sacrificial lamb unceremoniously exploded as a callback to a more famous character's death. All to tie in Watchmen?

Talk about downgrades

[ducklord]

Pandora really went from universe rewriter/cameoing watcher to C-list character in a book nobody bought to a sacrificial lamb unceremoniously exploded as a callback to a more famous character's death. All to tie in Watchmen?

Talk about downgrades

I like to think that, as a passing gesture of goodwill, Manhattan undid Pandora's death on his way out, and that at some point in the future some writer will pick up her story, and give her a solid reason for existing/mucking with the timeline.

[Tomkatie]

I do understand the emphasis on Flashpoint, especially when it comes to adaptations. It's a pretty accessible story for the casual fan, since it involves the DCU at large. Time-travel and alternate universes are always a great concept to hook viewers and present them with alternate takes on iconic characters (I mean, Michael Keaton's Batman, and to a lesser extent Sasha Calle's Supergirl, are the big draws of the upcoming Flash movie). But amidst all the universe-shattering stuff and the high-stakes, its also a very personal story about Barry Allen and the choices he makes (or rather is forced to make).

But yeah, the problem is that it has rather come to define the character for the past decade-plus, one way or the other. It's not even about direct adaptations. The whole Knightmare sequence, and Zack Snyder's overall plans for the DCEU, seemed to hinge around a version of Flashpoint as well (well, instead of having to let his mom die, Barry travels back to warn Batman, so that he can prevent an apocalyptic timeline). The DCAMU, itself spawned by the animated Flashpoint film, literally ends with Barry traveling back to cause another Flashpoint and reboot the continuity.

The one advantage of Flashpoint being in the first Flash film though is that they've gotten it out of their system and the next Flash movie, be it a reboot or a sequel of some sort, will have to focus on something else!

I honestly wouldn't say Flashpoint itself is the problem, more-so its ramifications (not only in the comics but also its prevalence in outside media). Like you said, it's become Barry's most defining story to general audiences, so writers always feel like they to write about it or around it. Which is one thing in a Flash-centric story, but we also get so many crapsack world AUs where Barry's used exclusively to erase it or killed off immediately so he can't erase it

[Tomkatie]

I like to think that, as a passing gesture of goodwill, Manhattan undid Pandora's death on his way out, and that at some point in the future some writer will pick up her story, and give her a solid reason for existing/mucking with the timeline.

Maybe Geoff Johns will bring her back for one of the next Crises he teased in Doomsday Clock

[Timber Wolf-By-Night]

I like to think that, as a passing gesture of goodwill, Manhattan undid Pandora's death on his way out, and that at some point in the future some writer will pick up her story, and give her a solid reason for existing/mucking with the timeline.

Nah. I don't believe anybody gives the slightest damn about her to bother. She lived a plot MacGuffin, she died a plot MacGuffin. She doesn't deserve to have any more energy wasted on her.

[dswynne]

To be honest, I could barely understand the concept of the Flashpoint Paradox, in the sense that what Barry did affected the timeline sideways, instead of affecting the timeline linearly.

Example: assuming that the Barry's mother was saved from being murdered when he was 11 years old, nothing before that point in time should be affected. The origins of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman should not have changed.

However, with the ripple effect in the timeline, moving forward, what could happen? I would venture to say that, IMO, you could make the argument that saving Barry's mother would lead directly to the creation of that world's version of the Crime Syndicate, if not in name, that things went bad to the point where:

* Government agents locate a young Clark and his Earth parents, Waco style. The heavy handiness of what happens does a Brightburn on Clark, thus creating Ultraman.
* Rather than keeping himself check, Bruce's need for vengeance corrupts him completely, thus joining the League of Assassins. After supplanting Ras Al-Gul as the head of the organization, Bruce returns to Gotham to take it over, for its own good, inspired by a Owl who kills a Bat one late night, and becomes Owlman.
* Betrayed and disillusioned by failure, you have the straw the breaks the proverbial camel's back, when Diana thought that Steve Trevor betrays her trust (not true). Now, full on Amazon, Diana becomes a female supremist (see: Arisa from the JUSTICE LEAGUE animated show). In the end, Diana becomes THE SUPER WOMAN.

Everything else depicted in the Flashpoint event can go on as normal, thanks to a more hostile Aquaman (depicted in the vein of Namor the Submariner). Basically, the Marvelization of DC's heroes.

Anyway, just some random thought...

[Thor-Ul]

I like to think that, as a passing gesture of goodwill, Manhattan undid Pandora's death on his way out, and that at some point in the future some writer will pick up her story, and give her a solid reason for existing/mucking with the timeline.

Nah. I don't believe anybody gives the slightest damn about her to bother. She lived a plot MacGuffin, she died a plot MacGuffin. She doesn't deserve to have any more energy wasted on her.

Hey, there are no bad characters, but bad writers. Even Pandora could work as a character independently from her origins and a clever writer couldmake a good use of her.

[Thor-Ul]

Not saying its an improvement...just saying it how it is.

Oh, I didn't wanted to imply you said that. I was saying my own opinion there.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Hey, there are no bad characters, but bad writers. Even Pandora could work as a character independently from her origins and a clever writer couldmake a good use of her.

They'd probably adapt some more new 52 stuff in the future so you could fix her there.

[bat39]

That's because, among other things, Pandora turned out to be sort of a Big Ol' Nothingburger of a character/plot device.
"I have to merge these universes and chuck out most of their history because there's a big crisis around the corner, and I have to make sure that all the heroes are young and inexperienced for, um reasons!"
"Ooh, spooky. What's this crisis all about?"
"I'll get to it. Did I mention that the Phantom Stranger is Judas Iscariot now, and that the Question may be an immortal?"
"We weren't really asking, but really, what's this crisis about?"
"I shoot guns! Bang bang!"
"The crisis?"
"Just kidding, it was a naked blue guy all along!"
"Fer chrissakes..."

I'd be really impressed with the upcoming Flash movie if it had the spheres to imply that Dr. Manhattan was behind the reboot at the end

To be honest, I could barely understand the concept of the Flashpoint Paradox, in the sense that what Barry did affected the timeline sideways, instead of affecting the timeline linearly.

Example: assuming that the Barry's mother was saved from being murdered when he was 11 years old, nothing before that point in time should be affected. The origins of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman should not have changed.

However, with the ripple effect in the timeline, moving forward, what could happen? I would venture to say that, IMO, you could make the argument that saving Barry's mother would lead directly to the creation of that world's version of the Crime Syndicate, if not in name, that things went bad to the point where:

* Government agents locate a young Clark and his Earth parents, Waco style. The heavy handiness of what happens does a Brightburn on Clark, thus creating Ultraman.
* Rather than keeping himself check, Bruce's need for vengeance corrupts him completely, thus joining the League of Assassins. After supplanting Ras Al-Gul as the head of the organization, Bruce returns to Gotham to take it over, for its own good, inspired by a Owl who kills a Bat one late night, and becomes Owlman.
* Betrayed and disillusioned by failure, you have the straw the breaks the proverbial camel's back, when Diana thought that Steve Trevor betrays her trust (not true). Now, full on Amazon, Diana becomes a female supremist (see: Arisa from the JUSTICE LEAGUE animated show). In the end, Diana becomes THE SUPER WOMAN.

Everything else depicted in the Flashpoint event can go on as normal, thanks to a more hostile Aquaman (depicted in the vein of Namor the Submariner). Basically, the Marvelization of DC's heroes.

Anyway, just some random thought...

Those are some interesting ideas. Hell, it'd be a neat twist if Barry is the one who 'creates' the Crime Syndicate of Amerika in this manner It'd probably be a better option than rehashing the beats of Flashpoint again when the inevitable temptation to do the next "Barry f#cks up the timeline" story hits...

But they do actually explain how Flashpoint works in the story (or at least, in the animated film), with the analogy that Barry going back to save Nora causes a 'time boom' that reverberates throughout the timeline and basically shatters reality, even altering events from before Nora's death.

Yes, it doesn't jive with most depictions of time-travel in the DCU (or in general, really) but within the context of this particular story it works as an explanation.

Then again, this goes back to my original point...the idea that an experienced, veteran version of Barry would go back in time and somehow screw things up so badly that he shatters reality! It just doesn't feel right...

[Thor-Ul]

They'd probably adapt some more new 52 stuff in the future so you could fix her there.

I would prefer not. If they can bring back Pandora without new52 baggage, it would be nice.

[The Darknight Detective]

Then again, this goes back to my original point...the idea that an experienced, veteran version of Barry would go back in time and somehow screw things up so badly that he shatters reality! It just doesn't feel right...

Especially when experienced, veteran Barry's experience with time travel indicated there wouldn't have been any hiccups fixing the timeline.

[ducklord]

Especially when experienced, veteran Barry's experience with time travel indicated there wouldn't have been any hiccups fixing the timeline.

Except that in this case, Barry *knew* there were extenuating circumstances going before he decided to try and reverse things. Thawne had explicitly told him that his changes couldn't be undone. I think he even made an initial attempt to reverse things (in Rebirth, maybe?), and found that he was slamming against the Reverse Speed Force. So he was aware that this wasn't a simple "zip back in time and fix the timeline" situation.

And yet, his apparent "plan" was simply to "run harder."

Great jerb, Barry.

[The Darknight Detective]

Except that in this case, Barry *knew* there were extenuating circumstances going before he decided to try and reverse things. Thawne had explicitly told him that his changes couldn't be undone. I think he even made an initial attempt to reverse things (in Rebirth, maybe?), and found that he was slamming against the Reverse Speed Force. So he was aware that this wasn't a simple "zip back in time and fix the timeline" situation.

And yet, his apparent "plan" was simply to "run harder."

Great jerb, Barry.

Did Thawne say that trying to change things back would cause other changes or just that it couldn't be done? If the latter, then Barry did nothing wrong. I can't recall the actual wording, FWIW.

[ducklord]

Did Thawne say that trying to change things back would cause other changes or just that it couldn't be done? If the latter, then Barry did nothing wrong. I can't recall the actual wording, FWIW.

I'm not sure of the wording. I think the key thing is that Barry knew that these temporal shenanigans were different than the usual "Per Degaton did something stupid in the past and now we have to undo it" situation. Veteran that he was, he should've known he was playing fire... Time Fire(tm).