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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    Think Han was going to get killed off anyway, that was largely why Harrison agreed to come back in the first place. He loves playing Indiana Jones but has never been a big fan of Han Solo even though it largely launched his career.

    Leia of course was something that really could not be avoided. Some of the original Episode 9 plans seem to indicate Leia would survive the trilogy but Carrie's death altered that.
    Well, there's killed off, and then there's HOW they killed him off. No heroic and desperate losing fight against a superior foe to save the galaxy, or even Rey and Chewie, just get punked by Adam Driver. Very heroic death. It was the mean spirited hatred they showed for fans of the OG characters that rankles the most.

  2. #62
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    I think that if LFL had allowed Han’s death to continue to contribute to the audience cheering against and hating Kylo (even if there were supposed to be other emotions mixing in with that) as the new main villain, his death wouldn’t hurt that much when the ST was over. In the same manner, I think that if Luke actually was Rey’s master refounding the Jedi Order through her, than both her and his fans would be far happier with the story as well. And I think that Rey’s fans are actually still pissed at how her getting tortured and violated by Kylo was ignored for the sake of sighing over Kylo, like how Finn fans are still annoyed at LFL being paranoid about having a charismatic black man with a more sympathetic backstory and better chemistry with Rey as a male lead when they wanted Driver to have that role.

    …And it’s why I’d still probably argue, like I did in that other Rey movie thread, that the best way to actually reinvigorate the ST’s cast would be to just make an anti-TLJ movie for the surviving characters of the ST:

    - Rey discovered she’s not the last Jedi, and goes looking for Luke’s students/associates, including an older Mara Jade (I’d cast Michelle Fairley for the role this late in the timeline) and a pair of students frozen in carbonite by a good, one-film villain (maybe something like an Anzati/Force Vampire character?)
    - Rey also uncovers that she wasn’t the biological child of her parents, who she now remembers clearly - she was in fact adopted by them when they discovered her being hunted by Ochi as a baby (a bit like Grogu)… because she was actually Luke’s daughter by Mara (who’s been quietly acting as a motherly figure but keeping it a secret out of guilt) and being targeted by Palpatine, so they faked her death and made it look like she was their daughter to Ochi.
    - Rey gets an emotional story borne out of her frustration, bitterness, and despair at her straits - “cursed” to be weighed down by the legacy of her biological family instead of getting any kind of solid family at all before losing it, and even having it hidden from her.
    - Maybe she also has this issue exacerbated by trying to follow the “No Attachments” rule even around Finn, who she’s clearly more genuinely in love with, and tormented by trauma of the Dyad curse of the Sith having made her a pair with Kylo, and a general movement towards realizing that healthy relationships (familial and romantic) aren’t neccessarily dangerous, and learning not to be attached is a separate issue applying to a lot of stuff outside of relationships.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  3. #63
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    My whole issue is that Anakin was later said to be the one to return balance to the force. With not only saving his son (whom really saved him more than anything), but we had from the time of Return of the Jedi to The Last Jedi even, Palpatine was dead and balance was largely returned to the Force (not necessarily the Galaxy admittedly though). Then in one movie that was all thrown out.
    I always found the "Balance to the Force" prophecy to be Jedi Propaganda. I mean honestly if being the chosen one was about bringing "Balance to the Force" than Anakin achieved it in Revenge of the Sith. Going strictly by the films I mean I know canonically Ashoka, Grogu, Maul, and Kanan to name a few survived but just going by the films the Force was never more Balanced than after Revenge of the Sith Palpatine and Vader on the Dark Side and Yoda and Obi-Wan on the Light Side Return of the Jedi with just Luke surviving isn't Balance.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    I always found the "Balance to the Force" prophecy to be Jedi Propaganda. I mean honestly if being the chosen one was about bringing "Balance to the Force" than Anakin achieved it in Revenge of the Sith. Going strictly by the films I mean I know canonically Ashoka, Grogu, Maul, and Kanan to name a few survived but just going by the films the Force was never more Balanced than after Revenge of the Sith Palpatine and Vader on the Dark Side and Yoda and Obi-Wan on the Light Side Return of the Jedi with just Luke surviving isn't Balance.
    You're mistaking balanced for equal. It was never about finding parity between the Jedi and the Sith.

    The Sith themselves are the imbalance (or, arguably, Palpatine himself given later developments in the franchise). The Dark Side is natural and inescapable, as fundamental to life and existence as anything else. But the Sith are a distillation and practice of it that becomes anathema to life itself. The obvious analogy here is cancer, when biology turns on itself and the very mechanism for sustaining life takes it instead.

    There is a compelling argument to be made from the PT and OT that Anakin brings balance to the Force not by killing Palpatine, but by rejecting the Sith path and returning to the Jedi. Accepting death, and thus restoring the natural order of the universe. That, in this way, he is an avatar of the larger macrocosmic Force finally righting itself after being "infected" for so long that it nearly ate itself. Though I think the simplest explanation is that it's both Palpatine's death and Anakin's redemption that serve.

    Hence how Rey can be instructed by Anakin's voice in RoS to "Bring balance, as I did." Reject the path of the unnatural and end Palpatine, for light and life.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    I always found the "Balance to the Force" prophecy to be Jedi Propaganda. I mean honestly if being the chosen one was about bringing "Balance to the Force" than Anakin achieved it in Revenge of the Sith. Going strictly by the films I mean I know canonically Ashoka, Grogu, Maul, and Kanan to name a few survived but just going by the films the Force was never more Balanced than after Revenge of the Sith Palpatine and Vader on the Dark Side and Yoda and Obi-Wan on the Light Side Return of the Jedi with just Luke surviving isn't Balance.
    It kind of worked both ways. The peak of the Jedi was ended by him and the peak of the Sith was ended by him, just wayyyyy far apart from each other.

  6. #66
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    Star Wars: Young Jedi Adventures premieres on Disney Plus and Disney Junior on May 4, 2023
    "Dedra Meero is not just a woman in a men’s world, but a fascist in a world of fascists.” - Denise Gough

  7. #67
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    Damon Lindelof Calls Axed ‘Star Wars’ Script a ‘True Labor of Love’

    https://variety.com/2023/film/column...rs-1235587344/


    Damon Lindelof tells me the project was a “true labor of love.” “Peaky Blinders” creator Steven Knight is now penning the script. “The movie is still happening, but unfortunately not with me,” Lindelof said at the premiere of “Mrs. Davis,” the offbeat Peacock dramady he is shepherding with showrunner Tara Hernandez. “I wish them all the best of luck. Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy is an incredible director, and I can’t wait to see what she comes up with.”
    Last edited by Tofali; 04-19-2023 at 12:13 PM.
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  8. #68
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I view it as the Jedi *and* Sith who contributed to the imbalance. The Chosen One prophesy isn't Jedi propaganda, but Jedi hubris ensured they'd never stop to wonder if they were part of the problem. There's probably stuff in novels or games or something that contradict my viewpoint, I dunno, I'm not deep enough in the lore but this is how I see it.

    The dark side is natural, the ying to the light's yang, all that. But the Sith and their rule of two, the obsession with immortality, those practices twisted the balance like a cancerous influence. So the Sith had to go, and in a way that broke the whole "master / apprentice / secret not-quite apprentices / assassination / new master" cycle.

    And the Jedi, as an organization, had clearly lost their way by the end of the Clone Wars, though they started straying from the path much earlier. And I think their supermassive monopoly on Force philosophy was part of the unbalancing too. No differing philosophies means no new ideas and the stagnation of the mind. So not only do the Jedi contribute to the cultural stagnation of the galaxy by making sure no species/race develop their own relationship to the Force, the whole group is slowly sliding towards some dark choices (arguably starting with agreeing to serve a specific government, way back when). So they gotta go too.

    I figure Anakin had to fall to the dark side in order to cull the Jedi, and the decades of Empire were needed to remove a lot of Jedi philosophy/influence. Luke had to redeem Vader to break the Sith and their rule of two. Rey had to burn Exegol to make sure Sith philosophy and knowledge couldn't be used again. Both Jedi and Sith had to be purged from the galaxy to make room for new philosophies and ideas and species' mental / emotional / spiritual growth and diversification.

    And in the end, the Force is balanced, the prophesy was true, and it all played out the way it needed to.
    Last edited by Ascended; 04-19-2023 at 09:00 PM.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    No differing philosophies means no new ideas and the stagnation of the mind. So not only do the Jedi contribute to the cultural stagnation of the galaxy by making sure no species/race develop their own relationship to the Force, the whole group is slowly sliding towards some dark choices (arguably starting with agreeing to serve a specific government, way back when). So they gotta go too.
    There were many differing phhilosopies, they were just not shown in the films.
    In the ongoing Star Wars High Republic comic book series you can see a lot of them for example.
    In the Clone Wars animated serie there are the Nightsisters of Dathomir.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvel Wars View Post
    There were many differing phhilosopies, they were just not shown in the films.
    In the ongoing Star Wars High Republic comic book series you can see a lot of them for example.
    In the Clone Wars animated serie there are the Nightsisters of Dathomir.
    And I know in Legends at least, a group of Grey Jedi emerged and tried to ally with Sideous, but were slaughtered as well.

    Plo Koon's people (the guy that found and rescued Ahsoka to bring her to the Jedi) have a long history of their own Force Sensitives being something like spiritual leaders (and very strong in the light/living side of the Force). In fact, despite harboring a LOT of Jedi knowledge and artifacts from the Empire, due to how hard their planet is to get to, they were never really troubled by Sidious or the other Imperial Forces.

  11. #71
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    There were other groups yeah, but all of them (that I'm aware of) were small and relatively insignificant, existing on the fringe of "Force culture." The biggest/most important faction we've seen (on screen) are the Witches of Dathomir, who were limited to a single planetary system with few members. And they were the biggest group outside the Jedi that we've seen.

    We know that some planets, especially pre-space civilizations that haven't been folded into the Republic, develop their own version of Force-based religion. I haven't seen a ton of that, and they're often treated (at least sub-textually) as primitive belief systems inferior to Jedi dogma. But we're still talking singular worlds here, while the Jedi are spread across the entire galaxy.

    Didn't know any of that about Plo Koon's people. I don't actually know what he even is. Always liked him though.

    The Guardians we see in Rogue One feel a little different, but that seems to be more of "this is where non-Force users fit into things" than it is a unique philosophy. And I think we saw some old temple ruins with the Bendu in Rebels? That'd indicate they had an organized faith at some point.
    Last edited by Ascended; 04-21-2023 at 07:48 AM.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

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  12. #72
    Ultimate Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    There were other groups yeah, but all of them (that I'm aware of) were small and relatively insignificant, existing on the fringe of "Force culture." The biggest/most important faction we've seen (on screen) are the Witches of Dathomir, who were limited to a single planetary system with few members. And they were the biggest group outside the Jedi that we've seen.

    We know that some planets, especially pre-space civilizations that haven't been folded into the Republic, develop their own version of Force-based religion. I haven't seen a ton of that, and they're often treated (at least sub-textually) as primitive belief systems inferior to Jedi dogma. But we're still talking singular worlds here, while the Jedi are spread across the entire galaxy.

    Didn't know any of that about Plo Koon's people. I don't actually know what he even is. Always liked him though.

    The Guardians we see in Rogue One feel a little different, but that seems to be more of "this is where non-Force users fit into things" than it is a unique philosophy. And I think we saw some old temple ruins with the Bendu in Rebels? That'd indicate they had an organized faith at some point.
    Honestly, we don't know even know what planet Yoda's race is from. Or the system, culture, etc. We know of 3 for sure in Yoda, Yaddle (another Jedi Council Member, but died before the Clone Wars), and Grogu, with past members rumored to simply be Yoda (Yoda was about 900 when he died). And Yoda is one of the most well known characters of the franchise, but we know almost nothing about his race. We know they are long lived with Grogu being 50+ years during the Mandolorian and still not old enough to actually talk, Yoda 900, and Yaddle 700+. Strong in the Force (both Yoda and Yaddle being sitting Council Members, and Grogu able to communicate with the Mythosaur). And pretty short.

    That's about it. Tons of theories, sure. But that's it.

  13. #73
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    The Mandalorian Season 4 Is Officially Replacing Canceled Star Wars TV Show

    https://screenrant.com/the-mandalori...-new-republic/
    "Dedra Meero is not just a woman in a men’s world, but a fascist in a world of fascists.” - Denise Gough

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    And in the end, the Force is balanced, the prophesy was true, and it all played out the way it needed to.
    When the 'prophecy' first appeared, the Jedi had a full council, dozens of Jedi and their Padawan all over the Republic, could command armies with full galactic government authority, and had a dozen or more 'youngling' Jedi in training at their temple / academy / library, and the only two (ish) Sith were in hiding.

    At the end of Anakin 'bringing balance to the Force,' there were *still* two Sith, but now also only two (ish) Jedi left, in hiding.

    Sounds like that was not the sort of 'balance' the Jedi Council wanted... (The Force may or may not have gotten balanced, but the 'balance of power' between the Jedi and Sith sure got a lot more balanced than it had been!)
    Last edited by Sutekh; 04-23-2023 at 12:30 AM.

  15. #75
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Sounds like that was not the sort of 'balance' the Jedi Council wanted...
    It was not. Which, I think, is part of why it works.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

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