Amazing Spider-man 25 Preview

[Vegeta]

How so? Daibhidh is asking questions. They are inviting a dialogue, not trying to shut one down. They are exchanging opinions.

You're not exactly inviting a dialogue when you answer your own questions. It's basically just jumping to conclusions and putting words in someone else's mouth.

You like this run. But are you saying that it's moving? Are you saying that it's tugging on your heartstrings? No. You're saying, how exciting, on to the next exciting thing.

Just sounds more like starting an argument than anything else.

[The_Sneezing_Stormtrooper]

Do you see how this kind of thing could discourage people from wanting to post anything positive? This is how echo chambers are created.

Funny how the same thing doesn't seem to apply with telling fans that they only don't like the run because they will never be happy unless Peter and MJ are remarried.

[Spider-Tiger]

I can see more of MJ being out for the next arc and coming back at the Wedding issue and if the watch sticks around she and Peter have a team up and we get some Felicia being jealous of them because it's now something Peter and MJ have in common,. cause drama

I could see that happening as well. I think they'll lean into the will they/won't they drama between Peter and MJ rather than write MJ out completely.

You know, I think this is the most damning criticism of the run I've seen yet.
Because clearly what the run is going for is the emotional tragedy of Ben turning evil and Peter losing MJ. It wants to tug on our heartstrings. The Death of Gwen Stacy was absolutely not meant to draw a line under Gwen Stacy and for better or worse it hasn't.

You like this run. But are you saying that it's moving? Are you saying that it's tugging on your heartstrings? No. You're saying, how exciting, on to the next exciting thing. You're praising the run not for anything it is doing but for the uncharted waters ahead.

The story that is unfolding definitely seems more like a status quo setup as opposed to a story that anyone would legitimately want to tell in and of itself (given how convoluted and nonsensical it is.) Basically, the second coming of OMIT, OMD, and to some extent, the Clone Saga. Unfortunately, we're gonna need another fixer run like Spencer's to pull the characters out of this.

And that's what 616 Spider-man comics have become. Poorly conceived status quo setups punctuated by runs designed to fix those poorly conceived status quo setups.

[NC_Yankee]

Funny how the same thing doesn't seem to apply with telling fans that they only don't like the run because they will never be happy unless Peter and MJ are remarried.

I am 100% pro marriage. But I would be happy if we had good stories, Peter was not made to look weak and pathetic and Ben was not turned into a villain. Think about the very idea of Norman Osborn as the good guy ( the same Osborn who killed Gwen) and Ben Reilly as the bad guy. I sincerely doubt there are many people who approve of this.

[Daibhidh]

Just sounds more like starting an argument than anything else.

I apologise to Alex_of_X if my paraphrase of his post was a misreading.

[Daibhidh]

Do you see how this kind of thing could discourage people from wanting to post anything positive? This is how echo chambers are created.

So, I remember people putting forward reasons why they think the Peter/MJ relationship is the best romantic relationship in comics; and I remember you dismissing those reasons as "childish" and "subjective", which means a matter of personal taste not amenable to discussion.
It seems to me that you dismissing other people's opinions as subjective and childish could discourage people from wanting to post things you disagree with. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and all that.

[Alex_Of_X]

You know, I think this is the most damning criticism of the run I've seen yet.
Because clearly what the run is going for is the emotional tragedy of Ben turning evil and Peter losing MJ. It wants to tug on our heartstrings. The Death of Gwen Stacy was absolutely not meant to draw a line under Gwen Stacy and for better or worse it hasn't.

You like this run. But are you saying that it's moving? Are you saying that it's tugging on your heartstrings? No. You're saying, how exciting, on to the next exciting thing. You're praising the run not for anything it is doing but for the uncharted waters ahead.

Now that you mention it, yes, I am!

But at the same time, I think I disagree with you on your reading of what the run is "going for." The MJ story is to-be-told; there's no tragedy there yet, only suspense. And the Ben story, while tragic, is also ongoing, and there's hope for a positive resolution.

But what I mean broadly is, to say the run is about those two things is to miss the forest for the trees. IMHO the run's about Peter having to figure out his life from scratch. He starts issue #1 down on the bottom. Sure, losing his brother to evil goop and his partner to Mayan shenanigans is part of that fall. But since the start, Wells has been more interested in exploring how Peter moves on from there: him growing closer to the allies still in his corner, like Felicia and Norman. Him reconnecting with Aunt May.

Now, to get more granular, I loved every major arc so far (Dark Web's ending was a tad soft tho). Issue #5 had me misty-eyed by the end. Then issue #10 did, too. The run is chock-full of thrilling fights: Spidey vs Rose's goons, vs Vulture, vs Hobgoblins, vs Chasm, just off the top of my head. On the weeks it's out, ASM is the first book I reach for in the read pile.

As for the uncharted waters part, I meant that my understanding from the previews was that MJ would exit the book in #26. Given that I've immensely enjoyed the run to this point, where MJ is not a central presence, I'm equally if not more excited for the story to move past the "what did Peter do" aspect into something brand new!

[Kevinroc]

I've said previously that I suspect the MJ story is going in such a direction that she never lost faith in Peter, but she had to break his heart for reasons. Once those reasons are cleared up, ooppss, now he's with Felicia.

In theory this could have worked, but they've blown the execution.

[Kevinroc]

Now that you mention it, yes, I am!

But at the same time, I think I disagree with you on your reading of what the run is "going for." The MJ story is to-be-told; there's no tragedy there yet, only suspense. And the Ben story, while tragic, is also ongoing, and there's hope for a positive resolution.

But what I mean broadly is, to say the run is about those two things is to miss the forest for the trees. IMHO the run's about Peter having to figure out his life from scratch. He starts issue #1 down on the bottom. Sure, losing his brother to evil goop and his partner to Mayan shenanigans is part of that fall. But since the start, Wells has been more interested in exploring how Peter moves on from there: him growing closer to the allies still in his corner, like Felicia and Norman. Him reconnecting with Aunt May.

Now, to get more granular, I loved every major arc so far (Dark Web's ending was a tad soft tho). Issue #5 had me misty-eyed by the end. Then issue #10 did, too. The run is chock-full of thrilling fights: Spidey vs Rose's goons, vs Vulture, vs Hobgoblins, vs Chasm, just off the top of my head. On the weeks it's out, ASM is the first book I reach for in the read pile.

As for the uncharted waters part, I meant that my understanding from the previews was that MJ would exit the book in #26. Given that I've immensely enjoyed the run to this point, where MJ is not a central presence, I'm equally if not more excited for the story to move past the "what did Peter do" aspect into something brand new!

The problem is they are never going to let MJ get too far away. They'll always keep her, at best, at arms length. Ready to pull her back in at a moment's notice.

And they've already spent so long pushing her away. People gotta be ready for when they pull her back in (which will probably happen after a few issues following this current arc).

The illusion of change works in this way too.

[TinkerSpider]

As for the uncharted waters part, I meant that my understanding from the previews was that MJ would exit the book in #26. Given that I've immensely enjoyed the run to this point, where MJ is not a central presence, I'm equally if not more excited for the story to move past the "what did Peter do" aspect into something brand new!

But MJ hasn't been a central presence at all. She's appeared in...what, 7 issues out of 23, with most appearances being glorified cameos.

They also moved past "What Did Peter Do" quite quickly. By ASM 900/6, nearly everyone who has ever appeared in the supporting cast came out to celebrate his birthday. Peter got his Osborn suit and agreed to work for Norman, thus solving his financial woes, in ASM 7-8.

I understand being happy that the mystery boxes will supposedly be open and Peter should be able to think and talk freely without Zeb Wells slapping duct tape on every thought and dialogue bubble for fear of revealing information to the reader. That will indeed be a breath of fresh air!

But otherwise, I'm having a hard time with the idea that the stories will be or even feel brand new. In fact, all the current arc does is fill in back story details - many of which aren't really needed - just to get back to the status quo already established in ASM 1 - 20. We already know how most of the arc concludes; we've already seen it. The only thing left open is what repercussions, if any, will be for the present day. I know they are teasing a major death, but this ain't my first comic book rodeo. And the next arc will be goofy, because it's Ed McGuinness on art and Wells has always written goofy for him previously, so I'm doubtful on any supposed emotional hangover. There's also a supposed MJ and BC next arc, and MJ's watch power shows up on a variant (also by McGuinness) and while covers lie and variant covers are usually not at all related to the contents, it's interesting they are bringing attention to her watch outside the audience for the MJ & BC mini.

And honestly, even if they kill MJ, blast her into a million pieces on panel, have every single one of her ashes certified to have been gathered and properly disposed of in a vault so deep and so secret not even the Watcher knows where it is so no scrap of her DNA can be used to create a clone, etc, and Dr. Strange certifies that her soul has also been obliterated, and every multiversal variant of MJ has also been obliterated so there is no possible way Mary Jane Watson can walk the soil of 616 ever never ever again:

Her presence will still hang over the book. It did every other tiime they tried to broom her out of the story - all the way back to when Wolfman tried to write her out but Stern brought her back - and it would this time. Especially with the new Spider-Verse movie, the PS5 sequel, and Spider-Man 4 supposedly heating up.

[Lee]

So, I remember people putting forward reasons why they think the Peter/MJ relationship is the best romantic relationship in comics; and I remember you dismissing those reasons as "childish" and "subjective", which means a matter of personal taste not amenable to discussion.
It seems to me that you dismissing other people's opinions as subjective and childish could discourage people from wanting to post things you disagree with. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and all that.

All opinions are subjective. I don't know what post you're talking about, so I don't remember the context. I would call bad behavior childish. Liking a piece of fiction or a fictional couple is fine.

But stuff like:

"I liked this comic."

"You liked the comic in the wrong way, which is proof that the comic is ****."

That's just dragging down someone else's good time. Would you do this in real life? If you were at a comic convention, standing in line next to someone, and they said they really liked a comic and found it exciting, would you tell them that their excitement is damning proof that it's **** actually?

[Vortex85]

"You liked the comic in the wrong way, which is proof that the comic is ****."

That's literally what Marvel writers and editorial did to fans during OMD and BND day, and continue to spout on about when confronted with fans who ask for the marriage back.

Quesada, Brevoot, etc going on about the fan's of Spider-Man comics they grew up on are "not good for future generations" and fans need to "take their medicine" so they can get back to the superior version of the character (single Spider-Man).

Basically, editorial came down on fans, stuck their fingers in their ears and said the single version is better, we are wiping out your version, and if you don't like it you can go read something else.

My good time was Spider-Man as a married character, it's what I grew up on and loved and Marvel dragged it through the mud saying how future generations can't get into it for some reason, how it was bad for the book, etc. Completely disregarding the fact that this is based on their own subjective opinion no better than my own.

[Vegeta]

That's literally what Marvel writers and editorial did to fans during OMD and BND day, and continue to spout on about when confronted with fans who ask for the marriage back.

Quesada, Brevoot, etc going on about the fan's of Spider-Man comics they grew up on are "not good for future generations" and fans need to "take their medicine" so they can get back to the superior version of the character (single Spider-Man).

Basically, editorial came down on fans, stuck their fingers in their ears and said the single version is better, we are wiping out your version, and if you don't like it you can go read something else.

Perhaps they did, but that shouldn't color fan's reactions to other fan's opinions. Besides, you should always strive to be the bigger person, not sink to their levels.

[Vortex85]

Perhaps they did, but that shouldn't color fan's reactions to other fan's opinions. Besides, you should always strive to be the bigger person, not sink to their levels.

Yeah I'm not doing it, and you are right. But for those who defend editorial all the time and get on fans about treating other fan's favorite stories or books like they are objectively inferior, look at what editorial did in the first that started all of this.

[Daibhidh]

All opinions are subjective.

That's a self-negating statement. Either it's a subjective opinion, in which case it has no bearing on whether other people's opinions are subjective or not, or it's an objective opinion, in which case at least one opinion is not subjective and it's false.
But statements of subjective preference: this piece of fiction is good or bad or I like it or I don't, are dull. They're not worth expressing. This work of fiction is good in some particular way or bad in some particular way are interesting. Ultimately, whether the ways in which a piece of fiction are good outweigh the ways in which it is bad may come down to taste, which may be personal (though even then I'd say they depend more on views about ethics and metaphysics that can be debated). But one can say that a work of fiction is trying to hit certain emotional beats and not hitting them well.

That's just dragging down someone else's good time. Would you do this in real life? If you were at a comic convention, standing in line next to someone, and they said they really liked a comic and found it exciting, would you tell them that their excitement is damning proof that it's **** actually?

I wouldn't use the word '****' because that's not interesting.
I've never been to a comic convention. But I have been to a book group. And it seems to me this forum is more like a book group than a group of random strangers standing in line. And certainly it's fair to say why one isn't convinced by other people's advocacy in a book group.
I've also been to a creative writing group. One doesn't get anything out of a creative writing group by resisting constructive criticism or retorting that all opinions are subjective. I wouldn't say 'this writing is ****' because that is not constructive. 'This writing is trying to be tragic but people aren't reacting to it on that level' is constructive. And yes, I do say that to people in the group. And people say that to me.
I'm a fan of Tolkien. My appreciation of Tolkien has not benefitted from people saying Tolkien is just a bit rubbish. But it has benefitted from people saying that Tolkien is bad in such and such specific ways, some of which I've had to agree with and some of which I have had to think about and disagree with. Often the most interesting criticism of a work of fiction is a critic getting hold of the right stick by the wrong end.