Has the Spider-Man editorial hate ever been this large and transparent?

[godisawesome]

Lol. EXACTLY.

Marvel literally told readers the 20 years of character and story fans and readers had invested in - financially and emotionally - was negated and replaced with a far lesser facsimile.

I’m sure I’m late to the party here, but someone posted that Editorial literally “hated” Parallel Lives.


This explains so much about modern Spider-Man and its problems. I’ve never met any fan say they hated this story. Quite the opposite; it was one of the stories unanimously recommended to me by avid readers as one of “the standards” of understanding who Peter and Mary Jane were as characters.

So the fact Brevoort actually hated it, hates the marriage, hates that DC gave Superman his family back…

… it tells me all I need to know. It tells me they absolutely do not understand the heart of the characters. And that’s sad and disappointing.

The Tragedy of the Brevoort Manifesto is that it's 80% beautiful but the 20% that's wrong is so wrong it ruins everything. He absolutely needs to go.


I will say though, not in defense of Tom but just in general, I actually understand the sort of conflicted feelings people have about Parallel Lives, or rather, the conflicted feelings about the reveal that she's always known. I actually understand the point that Brevoort is trying to make, that since she always knew he was Spider-Man, she didn't get the chance to fall in love with "just" Peter, but frankly, thinking on it now, that's just a flawed idea. The reality is that Mary Jane is the only person who ever actually knew who Peter Parker was. Spider-Man isn't just some thing that he does on Tuesdays after getting Tacos. It's a major facet of his life that completely alters how he goes through it. It affects his jobs, his love life, his friends and family, it's this whole part of him that changes everything about who he is. The reality is that Gwen never actually knew the real Peter Parker. She knew a part of him and she loved him for who he presented himself as. And it's not that what he presented himself as was a lie, but it was missing context adn details. I firmly believe, thanks to Captain Stacy, that Gwen would have loved Peter anyway, but it's nonetheless true that who she knew was ultimately a Persona. Felicia learns who Peter is, perhaps, but simply isn't interested in that life. She grows up a bit over time, but there' still a fundamental disconnect between what she wants out of life and the Normalcy that Peter seeks out. In her case, she loves Peter BECAUSE of Spider-Man. Brevoort seems to misunderstand MJ pretty severely in this quote, because he implies it's that way with MJ as well. But tha'ts shown pretty definitively to not be the case. It's true she never had the chance to fall in love with just Peter Parker the lovable loser but.....that's not who Peter Parker actually is. If anything, it makes her claim stronger since she was the only one who got to choose to be involved knowing everything.

And really, the worst part of the reveal that MJ knows Peter is Spider-Man is that they don't really nail it down. It's left vague and I think it's too important a detail to leave vague. Paralell Lives answer is as good as any, frankly. The other big time you could pin it to would be Gwen's death, as MJ has all the pieces you need of that puzzle to figure it out at that point, but I think the way they did it is stronger, even if it introduces a few questionable moments where MJ is treating him like a jerk when she knows why he's acting the way he's acting (but you can explain those away as her keeping up appearances or still being annoyed even if she knows the reason behind it).

I’d argue that something like Parallel Lives *does* drastically change the franchises nature, since it adds a significant, non-Lee or Ditko layer of information and interpretation that transforms the “formula” of the story into something different - by effectively removing part of the formula in favor of expanding the story into a more cross-genre, multi-character tale.

Conway coaches his decision to write the story as being part of a read on the franchise and fanbase at the time that MJ was different, her relationship with Peter was different… and maybe, without putting it in those words, that the franchise was now different.

The earlier MJ learns who Peter really is, the more of a story she has going on in the background of any appearance she has - which is likely why *all* live action Spider-Man lover interests in this century (Raimi’s Mary Jane, Webb’s Gwen, the MCU’s MJ) likely learn who Peter is before the end of their first movie (since when MCU MJ deduces the truth is ambiguous.) Two of the leading ladies have discussions and interactions with Peter before he decides to share who he is that contain “dual” dialogues, as both parties are hiding things from each other, while Webb’s Gwen is pretty clearly the deuteragonist of those films and that Peter’s partner from early on.

Most Millennials my age and Gen Zers are thus used to Spider-Man having a much heavier romance element blended into the genre-miss-mash that the franchise is, as are likely many Gen X comic readers who came up when stuff like Paralell Lives came out… while that’s inherently not the genre-mix that Brevoort’s generation grew up with, which might reflect why they seem to select creators who share their distaste for a heavier integration of character heavy romance work, and instead want interchangeable, shallow “girls of the run” and fantastical, “crazy” drama that’s not very character-based.

On that wavelength, it very much resembles some of the stylistic debates DC comics have had, since the difference between DC’s Silver Age peak and their Bronze Age peak is much more profound thanks to COIE.

[Lee]

All of those rely on (at minimum) Peter and MJ being a long-term couple living together. If you want to say "Okay but they don't technically have to be married", I won't fight you on that. This isn't the 1950's anymore where everyone thought that a couple aren't "serious enough" if they don't sign those marriage papers. So sure, they don't have to be legally married for those to happen. But I think you're arguing semantics here.



The fans at the time wanted Peter and MJ married too. It's a myth that it was a complete corporate stunt:

From Jim Shooter's own mouth:


Source: https://www.google.co.in/books/editi...J?hl=en&gbpv=0

It was absolutely a publicity stunt. It was done to tie-in with the newspaper strip and an event at Shea Stadium. It was mandated by the Editor in Chief. None of the Spider-Man comic book writers wanted to do it, the storylines weren't leading up to it, it was haphazardly shoe-horned into the narrative.

A cheering crowd at a comic convention doesn't make it less of a stunt. It wasn't a creatively driven story and it didn't flow naturally from where the series was at the time.

[Garlador]

I've seen this point raised before, and I think it's a correct one, generally, but it implies that the major Marriage-era stories--KLH, Venom, Clone Saga, JMS--relied on Peter and MJ being married. Which isn't true at all! They function just fine without holy matrimony. Not to say it detracts from them--it doesn't. But taking it away doesn't defang them, either.

I actually have been re-reading the old books, and I actually think you can't take the marriage out of the marriage-era stories without MASSIVELY changing the themes, characters, and growth of the characters. It kind of ruins many of the stories if you do.

Kraven's Last Hunt is so insanely driven by Peter's love for his wife that he literally crawls out of the grave fueled by his desire to get back to her, and the story served as the first major test of their marriage, with Kraven taking two weeks of their newly married life away from them, and Mary Jane's internal fears and frustrations on what being the wife of Spider-Man means. It's an essential marriage era story to me. There's a reason "Lost Hunt" literally re-establishes "they're married" because they knew the story wouldn't work if they weren't.

Similarly, Venom's reveal to Black Cat that Peter and Mary Jane got married while she was away vastly informs Black Cats character for the next DECADE. Felicia isn't just crushed that Peter hooked up with someone else; he MARRIED her, and to her that makes all the difference. It's definitive in her eyes, and it sets the stage for how she and Peter interact for hundreds of issues that follow.

And don't get me started on the Clone Saga. You CAN'T take the marriage out of that one. For starters, Mary Jane's pregnancy. Quesada said that OMD erased it (but other writers and editors have contradicted him), but so much of Clone Saga hinges on the fact that Ben is taking over so Peter can settled down and be a husband and father to his family. That's the driving narrative for most of the Clone Saga. And Mary Jane isn't having kids without being married; she makes that clear to Peter multiple times. She makes that clear to him when they're MARRIED too, that under no circumstances is she starting a family until she's 100% sure they're both going to be in it for the long-haul. She had far too much trauma regarding her sister and father to start a family unless she had a ring on her finger and was sure it was the right thing to do at the right time. You can't make that a "they were just living together" story.

And I could go on and on. There was the guy who tried to get Mary Jane to have an affair who exclusively targeted married women because that was his thing. There were so many stories focused on putting their marriage to the test that they endured and fought through. Removing the marriage removes the heart and core of those stories.

OMD hobbled their characters. It hobbled 20 years of story with their marriage. And let me tell you, "marriage" is such a significant difference from "living together" and "casually dating". I can't go back through my life with my wife and just replace "wife" with "live-in girlfriend" and have my story make sense. The moment we said "I do", it because OUR story, entwined at a level that is impossible to separate.

And I see the problems in the current right from that decision to try and say that's the case, because they aren't the same characters I'm reading about in these older books. They don't act remotely like they once did. Because they were erased with lesser facsimiles.

None of the Spider-Man comic book writers wanted to do it...

This is blatantly not true and we have many writers on record saying they were for it. Not everyone did, but it’s factually incorrect to say “none” wanted it to happen. Several writers were happy for it and on-board.

[Daibhidh]

Jim Shooter is an interesting figure. He was apparently horribly abrasive as a person. On the other hand, he apparently also fought for the writers and artists to have better rights than they had been getting.

However, that's irrelevant to the creative side. On the creative side, Shooter was in charge while Claremont was writing X-Men, Miller Daredevil, and Simonson Thor. Kraven's Last Hunt was planned with him in charge. The first Secret Wars, which he wrote, is much better than anything with that premise has any right to be. And I could go on with examples. He made some missteps: Secret Wars II is an ambitious mess. But really the period he was in charge was the imperial age of Marvel in a way that overshadows even the Lee-Kirby-Ditko-Romita era. This is not someone who had no regard for storytelling value.

[Spider-Tiger]

The fans at the time wanted Peter and MJ married too. It's a myth that it was a complete corporate stunt:

From Jim Shooter's own mouth:


Source: https://www.google.co.in/books/editi...J?hl=en&gbpv=0

I also think one of the major distinctions: OMD creatively speaking isn't for the fans. It isn't for the readers. (I think it's even a bit disingenuous to say that it's for the benefit of "future" readers.) It's for a specific subset of writers and editors. Writers that wanted to play with the characters and add to the mythos when it existed in a particular status quo (be it Lee-Romita or Conway or Stern etc.) and didn't like that they were handed something that they didn't anticipate (with the marriage or with certain characters like Harry or Norman off the table.)

I read an interview with Michelinie in which he talks about this: he was the first writer to be handed the marriage and it wasn't an ideal situation for him because, prior to landing the gig, he had other ideas for the characters. However, he made the best out of it and enjoyed aspects of the marriage.

The irony is that there are probably several writers today that would prefer to play with a married Peter and Mary Jane and continue forward from the 90s and JMS eras or do something akin to Spider-verse. All the vitriol that this direction has instigated and the mess it has made of continuity has all become so pointless.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I also think one of the major distinctions: OMD creatively speaking isn't for the fans. It isn't for the readers. (I think it's even a bit disingenuous to say that it's for the benefit of "future" readers.) It's for a specific subset of writers and editors. Writers that wanted to play with the characters and add to the mythos when it existed in a particular status quo (be it Lee-Romita or Conway or Stern etc.) and didn't like that they were handed something that they didn't anticipate (with the marriage and with certain characters like Harry or Norman off the table.)

I read an interview with Michelinie in which he talks about this: he was the first writer to be handed the marriage and it wasn't an ideal situation for him because, prior to landing the gig, he had other ideas for the characters. However, he made the best out of it and enjoyed aspects of the marriage.

The irony is that there are probably several writers today that would prefer to play with a married Peter and Mary Jane and continue forward from the 90s and JMS eras or do something akin to Spider-verse. All the vitriol that this direction has instigated and the mess it has made of continuity has all become so pointless.

Spot on. Btw, I like how you include Spider-Verse. Because I'm at a point where I love the idea of Spider-Verse and multiple spider-people, but feel like OMD is affecting that too. We can't get a proper compare-and-contrast between Miles and Peter because Peter is stunted and not himself. I mean, forget Mayday or a midlife crisis Pete like in ITSV. You can't even explore a status quo with Miles and a peak late 20's Peter like Chris Pine's. It's off the table because of the current status quo.

[Knightsilver]

Spot on. Btw, I like how you include Spider-Verse. Because I'm at a point where I love the idea of Spider-Verse and multiple spider-people, but feel like OMD is affecting that too. We can't get a proper compare-and-contrast between Miles and Peter because Peter is stunted and not himself. I mean, forget Mayday or a midlife crisis Pete like in ITSV. You can't even explore a status quo with Miles and a peak late 20's Peter like Chris Pine's. It's off the table because of the current status quo.

It's honestly breathtaking how far reaching the damage of OMD is. It's negatively affected the book in so many ways big and small.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

It's honestly breathtaking how far reaching the damage of OMD is. It's negatively affected the book in so many ways big and small.

Unless it's undone (which I still think it will be... I give it 10 years max), we'll eventually reach a point where the adaptations have nothing to pull from. It wasn't a problem till now because major superhero adaptations are still relatively recent compared to comics, and because Spidey had 40+ years of good comic history to pull from. So 10-15 years of stagnating mid Spider-Man comics are honestly not that big a deal. But one day the adaptations will run out of comics content they can use, and then they'll be completely on their own. And then the Spider-Man IP is officially in "danger" territory. That's how cancerous OMD is to Spider-Man.

Basically, OMD is like climate change. We won't notice its "serious" effects till later, but it can be stopped.

(No one @ me for comparing OMD to a serious issue. People make political metaphors all the damn time to prove a point. Everyone "gets" this already, except whichever user is trying to be clever and smug right now with their response to this.)

[KC]

The thing is though...that's literally the story we've been given since OMD. It's a Devil created timeline where everyone is apparently their worst possible selves.

Sure Mephisto was a part of retconning the marriage, but all the stuff after OMD should still matter and shouldn't be reduced to a Mephisto-made haze can be swept away. I don't think everyone is their "worst possible selves" at all.

[KC]

Lol. EXACTLY.

Marvel literally told readers the 20 years of character and story fans and readers had invested in - financially and emotionally - was negated and replaced with a far lesser facsimile.

And if Marvel retconned everything after OMD or swept it away, they would be doing the same with 15 years of character and story fans and readers had invested in financially and emotionally. Also big disagree on everything after OMD being a "far lesser facsimile" of Spider-Man.

[clonegeek]

And if Marvel retconned everything after OMD or swept it away, they would be doing the same with 15 years of character and story fans and readers had invested in financially and emotionally. Also big disagree on everything after OMD being a "far lesser facsimile" of Spider-Man.

They need to severally retcon everything after OMD to include the marriage.

[KC]

They need to severally retcon everything after OMD to include the marriage.

No, not really. There are workarounds that could be used to keep the continuity mostly intact. Like Peter and MJ split up but did not divorce. Or as another user suggested, Peter and MJ remember they were married but it was retconned and so they get married again.

[clonegeek]

No, not really. There are workarounds that could be used to keep the continuity mostly intact. Like Peter and MJ split up but did not divorce. Or as another user suggested, Peter and MJ remember they were married but it was retconned and so they get married again.

I just want Peter and MJ to get all the lost time from all the time jumps. But here's the thing, you really don't lose that much that can't just be reintroduced better if you junk the last 15 years of the title

[KC]

I just want Peter and MJ to get all the lost time from all the time jumps. But here's the thing, you really don't lose that much that can't just be reintroduced better if you junk the last 15 years of the title

And I want these comics that I bought and enjoyed to not be unceremoniously canned. Especially just so the marriage could have lasted for a little bit longer. Strong disagree. Plenty of good stuff would be lost by just retconning the last 15 years. And I wouldn't want any of it to be reintroduced in a way that would probably be worse than it was before.

[CaptainUniverse]

And I want these comics that I bought and enjoyed to not be unceremoniously canned. Especially just to bring back the marriage and especially just so the marriage could have lasted for a little bit longer. Strong disagree. Plenty of good stuff would be lost by just retconning the last 15 years. And I wouldn't want any of it to be reintroduced in a way that would probably be worse than it was before.

Well, at the end of the day it isn't up to any of us. It is up to whomever takes over Marvel Editorial in the future. That is...if there is a Marvel Editorial in the future. It could just be some oversight committee from Disney's publishing arm that ends up making all of the decisions for all we know.