Has the Spider-Man editorial hate ever been this large and transparent?

[Spider-Tiger]

Unless it's undone (which I still think it will be... I give it 10 years max), we'll eventually reach a point where the adaptations have nothing to pull from. It wasn't a problem till now because major superhero adaptations are still relatively recent compared to comics, and because Spidey had 40+ years of good comic history to pull from. So 10-15 years of stagnating mid Spider-Man comics are honestly not that big a deal. But one day the adaptations will run out of comics content they can use, and then they'll be completely on their own. And then the Spider-Man IP is officially in "danger" territory. That's how cancerous OMD is to Spider-Man.

Basically, OMD is like climate change. We won't notice its "serious" effects till later, but it can be stopped.

(No one @ me for comparing OMD to a serious issue. People make political metaphors all the damn time to prove a point. Everyone "gets" this already, except whichever user is trying to be clever and smug right now with their response to this.)

I think of it as a cancer that's just slowly metastasizing to different organs. Over the years, it has eroded so much good will from new and old fans that some of that damage can never be fully "undone." Some people will never come back to the book. But if it's properly dealt with and removed, things could turn around for the better (same applies here lol)

Also I think the Miles era of adaptations is just beginning. How that will affect Peter remains to be seen. However, if Peter is treated in accordance to how the Post-OMD writers want him to be perceived (ie: youth), then he becomes superfluous thematically.

No, not really. There are workarounds that could be used to keep the continuity mostly intact. Like Peter and MJ split up but did not divorce. Or as another user suggested, Peter and MJ remember they were married but it was retconned and so they get married again.

I think the most important thing that has been highlighted in the "When does canon end?" thread: although there does seem to be a majority on here that thinks the only canon that matters is pre- OMD, there's no "unanimous" vote. Poll different readers and writers and you'll get different answers. Marvel staff couldnt even unanimously agree whether to revive Gwen with BND. To some, Spider-Man ended with Gwen's death. Others the marriage. If you're old enough (Wolfman or Conway...no shade intended) "true" Spider-Man ended with Ditko. If you were to take into account everyone's preferences, none of it would matter. None of it would be "true" Spider-Man. And so, pragmatically speaking, all of it should matter.

In that regard, I agree with you. If the marriage was to return, they should do it in a way that works with the last 15 years instead of trying to rewrite those stories.

[KC]

Well yeah, but what is the internet for other than people declaring their opinions and preferences?

[CaptainUniverse]

Well yeah, but what is the internet for other than people declaring their opinions and preferences?

...

Looking up Fallout 4 settlement build videos?

[Knightsilver]

Sure Mephisto was a part of retconning the marriage, but all the stuff after OMD should still matter and shouldn't be reduced to a Mephisto-made haze can be swept away. I don't think everyone is their "worst possible selves" at all.

Odds are once OMD is undone...most of the post OMD/BND stories will probably just be ignored. They likely won't bring it up at all...so the fans of it can still view them as having happened if they want...and those that hate them can feel they never happened at all. It's the easiest solution.

[clonegeek]

...

Looking up Fallout 4 settlement build videos?

Geno Samual's Chris Chan documentry?

[KC]

Odds are once OMD is undone...most of the post OMD/BND stories will probably just be ignored. They likely won't bring it up at all...so the fans of it can still view them as having happened if they want...and those that hate them can feel they never happened at all. It's the easiest solution.

I think characters, plotlines and ideas from BND onwards will still appear in Spider-Man stories if/when Peter and MJ defeat Mephisto in some way. Like how characters, plotlines and ideas from the time Peter and MJ were married still appeared from BND onwards.

[CaptainUniverse]

Geno Samual's Chris Chan documentry?

Well...I mean...if you want to go insane, yeah...

[clonegeek]

I think characters, plotlines and ideas from BND onwards will still appear in Spider-Man stories if/when Peter and MJ defeat Mephisto in some way. Like how characters, plotlines and ideas from the time Peter and MJ were married still appeared from BND onwards.

Just have Peter be married to MJ the whole time and do a mini showing the real version of Superior

[Knightsilver]

I think characters, plotlines and ideas from BND onwards will still appear in Spider-Man stories if/when Peter and MJ defeat Mephisto in some way. Like how characters, plotlines and ideas from the time Peter and MJ were married still appeared from BND onwards.

Most of the BND era plot lines are largely abandoned at the end of each story arc anyway. This was done on purpose to maintain the forever "single broke loser" status quo that OMD was created for. Mephisto's defeat wouldn't really cause a loss of anything from the BND era other than Peter and MJ wouldn't have slept with other people.

[Xenon]

I've seen this point raised before, and I think it's a correct one, generally, but it implies that the major Marriage-era stories--KLH, Venom, Clone Saga, JMS--relied on Peter and MJ being married. Which isn't true at all! They function just fine without holy matrimony. Not to say it detracts from them--it doesn't. But taking it away doesn't defang them, either.

Also something largely unstated in the Brevoort write-up is that to fans like him the marriage was the OMD of its time: an out-of-nowhere editorial driven (Lee and Shooter) stunt that messed up Spider-Man's trajectory as a character. Parallel lives, to him, is as radioactive a story as Sins Past. I think it's worth keeping in mind. He's got his stories messed with, the same way the marriage fans had their stories messed with. It's the nature of the beast, really

Corporate comics, amirite?

So....,spider-Man doesn't have to be married or single in the sense that's its a necessary element of his character. He should be married in the 616 becuase he was and it's a natural progression for the character and you gain nothing by getting rid of it. But sure, you could tell a couple of those stories without them being married, Venom and KLH don't require it (KLH is literally the next issue so yeah no way he was counting on that lol) at all. I'd argue the way the clone saga plays out doesn't make nearly as much sense without them married (Quesada seems to agree since he says she was never pregnant and her being pregnant is vital to them going away). The JMS saga though I would argue is absolutely a much lesser story if they're just dating. A separation is different from breaking up. It's very much this half step measure that only can exist between a married couple. And with JMS' run the story is all about three characters, Peter, MJ, and May. I think you just lose a ton of background weight without the marriage in those stories. It just changes the whole dynamic.

There are things like that post-OMD too. you'd have to change Superior somehow. Peter disappearing for four months during BND is a much bigger deal if MJ is just sitting around wondering where the hell her husband is. But they're side elements I'd argue aren't nearly as important. Like the JMS story is all about the relationship between Peter and MJ and May so you lose a ton when you change the nature of that relationship.

I’d argue that something like Parallel Lives *does* drastically change the franchises nature, since it adds a significant, non-Lee or Ditko layer of information and interpretation that transforms the “formula” of the story into something different - by effectively removing part of the formula in favor of expanding the story into a more cross-genre, multi-character tale.

Conway coaches his decision to write the story as being part of a read on the franchise and fanbase at the time that MJ was different, her relationship with Peter was different… and maybe, without putting it in those words, that the franchise was now different.

The earlier MJ learns who Peter really is, the more of a story she has going on in the background of any appearance she has - which is likely why *all* live action Spider-Man lover interests in this century (Raimi’s Mary Jane, Webb’s Gwen, the MCU’s MJ) likely learn who Peter is before the end of their first movie (since when MCU MJ deduces the truth is ambiguous.) Two of the leading ladies have discussions and interactions with Peter before he decides to share who he is that contain “dual” dialogues, as both parties are hiding things from each other, while Webb’s Gwen is pretty clearly the deuteragonist of those films and that Peter’s partner from early on.

Most Millennials my age and Gen Zers are thus used to Spider-Man having a much heavier romance element blended into the genre-miss-mash that the franchise is, as are likely many Gen X comic readers who came up when stuff like Paralell Lives came out… while that’s inherently not the genre-mix that Brevoort’s generation grew up with, which might reflect why they seem to select creators who share their distaste for a heavier integration of character heavy romance work, and instead want interchangeable, shallow “girls of the run” and fantastical, “crazy” drama that’s not very character-based.

On that wavelength, it very much resembles some of the stylistic debates DC comics have had, since the difference between DC’s Silver Age peak and their Bronze Age peak is much more profound thanks to COIE.

i mean there was pretty much always a decent romance elemtnt to the comic, which makes sense given its more grounded nature and the character they made Peter Parker. Even ol Curmudgeon Steve Ditko is setting up romances and love triangles. Like yeah he only dated Betty during the Ditko years but he set up Gwen and had a whole Betty-Liz love triangle along with MJ being mentioned very early on. So there's always been this romance element. It's why there continues to be this element in the comics to this day, it's just been terrible for 12 of the 16 years.

Also, Raimi's MJ doesn't find out until Mid Spider-Man 2. But it's certainly true that every adaptation outside of the cartoons since 2000 has made MJ more important than she was the comic book at first. Whether that's making them childhood friends or centering the whole comic around her.

It was absolutely a publicity stunt. It was done to tie-in with the newspaper strip and an event at Shea Stadium. It was mandated by the Editor in Chief. None of the Spider-Man comic book writers wanted to do it, the storylines weren't leading up to it, it was haphazardly shoe-horned into the narrative.

A cheering crowd at a comic convention doesn't make it less of a stunt. It wasn't a creatively driven story and it didn't flow naturally from where the series was at the time.

It absolutely was a publicity stunt. It was also the correct decision. It was bold but it worked.

Jim Shooter is an interesting figure. He was apparently horribly abrasive as a person. On the other hand, he apparently also fought for the writers and artists to have better rights than they had been getting.

However, that's irrelevant to the creative side. On the creative side, Shooter was in charge while Claremont was writing X-Men, Miller Daredevil, and Simonson Thor. Kraven's Last Hunt was planned with him in charge. The first Secret Wars, which he wrote, is much better than anything with that premise has any right to be. And I could go on with examples. He made some missteps: Secret Wars II is an ambitious mess. But really the period he was in charge was the imperial age of Marvel in a way that overshadows even the Lee-Kirby-Ditko-Romita era. This is not someone who had no regard for storytelling value.

I would never want to work for Jim Shooter. I would put him in charge of Marvel tomorrow if I had the power. Quality goes up almost immediately after he's put in charge, and while it maintains itself for a bit after he's removed (Owsley and Defalco were good enough at the job), eventually that fell too. They probably had to fire him due to his inability to connect at all with his employees, but he's responsible for so much good Marvel stuff. One of the most important men to the company.

It's honestly breathtaking how far reaching the damage of OMD is. It's negatively affected the book in so many ways big and small.

And it will continue. Like lets say Wells is swindling us all and his endgame is undoing OMD and remarrying them at the end of his run (pure fantasy). Even once that happens, the effect will still be felt any time there's relationship drama between Peter and Mj. And there naturally would be, it' sa marriage, people fight, people do things their partner doesn't like! That's normal! But any hostility will be perceived with dredd and hatred because we'll be waiting for the rug to be pulled out from under us again. It was bad enough from Spencer to Wells. If they were married again it'd be apocalyptic.

[Xenon]

Unless it's undone (which I still think it will be... I give it 10 years max), we'll eventually reach a point where the adaptations have nothing to pull from. It wasn't a problem till now because major superhero adaptations are still relatively recent compared to comics, and because Spidey had 40+ years of good comic history to pull from. So 10-15 years of stagnating mid Spider-Man comics are honestly not that big a deal. But one day the adaptations will run out of comics content they can use, and then they'll be completely on their own. And then the Spider-Man IP is officially in "danger" territory. That's how cancerous OMD is to Spider-Man.

Basically, OMD is like climate change. We won't notice its "serious" effects till later, but it can be stopped.

(No one @ me for comparing OMD to a serious issue. People make political metaphors all the damn time to prove a point. Everyone "gets" this already, except whichever user is trying to be clever and smug right now with their response to this.)

While I agree with your overall point, we've already seen what adaptation can do with newer material. The game is the best example of this, using both Mr. Negative and even Screwball in effective manner. It's just less an adaptation and more an insperation at that point.

No, not really. There are workarounds that could be used to keep the continuity mostly intact. Like Peter and MJ split up but did not divorce. Or as another user suggested, Peter and MJ remember they were married but it was retconned and so they get married again.

Be weird if they were still legally married and banging all these different people lol. But the last one is honestly what I would expect. The truth will be revealed to them, they'll make up, they get remarried.

And I want these comics that I bought and enjoyed to not be unceremoniously canned. Especially just so the marriage could have lasted for a little bit longer. Strong disagree. Plenty of good stuff would be lost by just retconning the last 15 years. And I wouldn't want any of it to be reintroduced in a way that would probably be worse than it was before.

At the same time, eh. I can name very little I'd be sad about losing if we went back to 500. I liked Molten Man 2. I like the mayor race and Menace. New Ways to Die is ok? I like 24/7...and then I like the Spencer run. And that's it. I can sacrifice that stuff.

Odds are once OMD is undone...most of the post OMD/BND stories will probably just be ignored. They likely won't bring it up at all...so the fans of it can still view them as having happened if they want...and those that hate them can feel they never happened at all. It's the easiest solution.

Well I mean after Spencer took a bulldozer to the Slott run what is there to mention? By design nothing important happened in Peter's personal life. They may be functionally ignored but that's kind of the case now. Not like Slott set up a bunch of threads to be followed up on. Hell he snipped threads he didn't even need to.

[KC]

Most of the BND era plot lines are largely abandoned at the end of each story arc anyway. This was done on purpose to maintain the forever "single broke loser" status quo that OMD was created for. Mephisto's defeat wouldn't really cause a loss of anything from the BND era other than Peter and MJ wouldn't have slept with other people.

Which is why I specified BND onwards to now, which includes Slott and Spencer. And even then stuff like Julia Carpenter becoming Madam Web, and Flash losing his legs came from BND which are not specifically about Peter sure, but are still stuff that I doubt would be ignored.

[KC]

At the same time, eh. I can name very little I'd be sad about losing if we went back to 500. I liked Molten Man 2. I like the mayor race and Menace. New Ways to Die is ok? I like 24/7...and then I like the Spencer run. And that's it. I can sacrifice that stuff.

I don't really see why anything would need to be sacrificed even if someone doesn't like much or all of the post-OMD Spider-Man comics that have been published (which is obviously fine by the way). It would be a weirdly reductive thing to do for those of us who did like a lot of the Post-OMD Spider-Man.

[clonegeek]

Which is why I specified BND onwards to now, which includes Slott and Spencer. And even then stuff like Julia Carpenter becoming Madam Web, and Flash losing his legs came from BND which are not specifically about Peter sure, but are still stuff that I doubt would be ignored.

I mean most of the Slott run doesn't even matter at this point. Parker Inc is gone. Silk's origin could easly be retconed out.

[KC]

I mean most of the Slott run doesn't even matter at this point. Parker Inc is gone. Silk's origin could easly be retconed out.

It does. The characters and ideas Slott created still happened both in universe and in a way that future writers can reference and use. It could be retconned, but why would it be?