Has the Spider-Man editorial hate ever been this large and transparent?

[clonegeek]

It does. The characters and ideas Slott created still happened both in universe and in a way that future writers can reference and use. It could be retconned, but why would it be?

Because it sucks, what exactly do you lose from it?

[godisawesome]

I think characters, plotlines and ideas from BND onwards will still appear in Spider-Man stories if/when Peter and MJ defeat Mephisto in some way. Like how characters, plotlines and ideas from the time Peter and MJ were married still appeared from BND onwards.

Most of the BND era plot lines are largely abandoned at the end of each story arc anyway. This was done on purpose to maintain the forever "single broke loser" status quo that OMD was created for. Mephisto's defeat wouldn't really cause a loss of anything from the BND era other than Peter and MJ wouldn't have slept with other people.

Which is why I specified BND onwards to now, which includes Slott and Spencer. And even then stuff like Julia Carpenter becoming Madam Web, and Flash losing his legs came from BND which are not specifically about Peter sure, but are still stuff that I doubt would be ignored.

Yeah, I don’t personally see any reason why undoing OMD would require ravaging the stories around Peter because, to sort of reference what happened in the Silver Age Superman comics once it became clear that nothing much was ever going to be allowed to change in Metropolis, there *is* creative energy being used outside Peter’s closest orbit; the supporting cast of the franchise has expanded, a bit like how Legion of Superhero’s did for Superman.

And yeah, I’d say characters like Scarlet Spider II, Silk, Agent Venom, and Superior Spider-Man are all character concepts I like and would want to see get referenced later, even the latter two were both built form the ground up with “Don’t worry, editorial will brush these away as soon as they’re bored with them” attitudes. And other elements, like Parker Industries, also suffered from clear temporary status thanks to editorial, so they’re not exactly a “threat” to an anti-OMD resurgence.

It’s mostly just been Peter’s own personal life that has suffered an ignominy and boringly prosaic treatment.

[clonegeek]

Yeah, I don’t personally see any reason why undoing OMD would require ravaging the stories around Peter because, to sort of reference what happened in the Silver Age Superman comics once it became clear that nothing much was ever going to be allowed to change in Metropolis, there *is* creative energy being used outside Peter’s closest orbit; the supporting cast of the franchise has expanded, a bit like how Legion of Superhero’s did for Superman.

And yeah, I’d say characters like Scarlet Spider II, Silk, Agent Venom, and Superior Spider-Man are all character concepts I like and would want to see get referenced later, even the latter two were both built form the ground up with “Don’t worry, editorial will brush these away as soon as they’re bored with them” attitudes. And other elements, like Parker Industries, also suffered from clear temporary status thanks to editorial, so they’re not exactly a “threat” to an anti-OMD resurgence.

It’s mostly just been Peter’s own personal life that has suffered an ignominy and boringly prosaic treatment.

You know the post-OMD years have basically been like Superman's Silver Age. Wacky events happen that are easly undone, nothing really matters. Hell, Superior even gave us Peter acting like a dick

[Xenon]

I don't really see why anything would need to be sacrificed even if someone doesn't like much or all of the post-OMD Spider-Man comics that have been published (which is obviously fine by the way). It would be a weirdly reductive thing to do for those of us who did like a lot of the Post-OMD Spider-Man.

It does. The characters and ideas Slott created still happened both in universe and in a way that future writers can reference and use. It could be retconned, but why would it be?

The only reason is timeline believability and lost time.

There are people who resent that Peter and MJ lost so much time in the story to stupid antics. If you get rid of that stuff, you can more credibly claim they're still in their mid twenties and havne't lost a bunch of time to Mephisto, which given the finite nature of life is very valuable. Of course, the reality is that if Marvel cared about that kind of believability they wouldn't allow so many time skips and Peter and MJ would already be in their mid 30s. I was joking a while ago about a time loop but honestly it's not that crazy of an idea in the Marvel Universe to excuse away that like 10 years have passed since Peter was 22 and yet he's still 28.

If you don't care about that timeline belivability concept then yeah no reason. Though, as I mentioned before, Slott pretty much doesn't leave loose ends to be built off of, and most of the stuff you could have built off of his stuff is, like, gone. So like, yeah not a ton of reason to remove it but also not really much gained by it either. And this Wells run is so terrible that I don't want it referenced again just because it's so bad.

[KC]

The only reason is timeline believability and lost time.

There are people who resent that Peter and MJ lost so much time in the story to stupid antics. If you get rid of that stuff, you can more credibly claim they're still in their mid twenties and havne't lost a bunch of time to Mephisto, which given the finite nature of life is very valuable. Of course, the reality is that if Marvel cared about that kind of believability they wouldn't allow so many time skips and Peter and MJ would already be in their mid 30s. I was joking a while ago about a time loop but honestly it's not that crazy of an idea in the Marvel Universe to excuse away that like 10 years have passed since Peter was 22 and yet he's still 28.

If you don't care about that timeline belivability concept then yeah no reason. Though, as I mentioned before, Slott pretty much doesn't leave loose ends to be built off of, and most of the stuff you could have built off of his stuff is, like, gone. So like, yeah not a ton of reason to remove it but also not really much gained by it either. And this Wells run is so terrible that I don't want it referenced again just because it's so bad.

I think keeping stuff that is liked by some fans as canon is more important than timeline consistancy. Slott created plenty of characters that are still around and even if some of his concepts and story ideas are not currently being used, that doesn't mean they can't be resurrected and expanded upon in the future.

[clonegeek]

I think keeping stuff that is liked by some fans as canon is more important than timeline consistancy. Slott created plenty of characters that are still around and even if some of his concepts and story ideas are not currently being used, that doesn't mean they can't be resurrected and expanded upon in the future.

Just keep the villains besides the Inheritors of course. Most of the supporting cast for Peter could go into the aether without any really loss.

[KC]

Just keep the villains besides the Inheritors of course. Most of the supporting cast for Peter could go into the aether without any really loss.

Or, just keep all of it. A Slott created character showing up in a Spider-Man book in 10 years time would not be the end of the world.

[Garlador]

Or, just keep all of it. A Slott created character showing up in a Spider-Man book in 10 years time would not be the end of the world.

I said this in the "too many retcons" thread, but I don't want post-OMD to be ignored. I want OMD to be confronted, head-on, and they need to DEAL with this crap. Every story - EVERY story - has the stink of it wafting around it because we're living in a reality created by the devil to eternally screw with Peter to ensure he can never mature and he can never be with Mary Jane. It's literally a plot point now, that Mephisto legitimately fears what Mary Jane and Peter being together means for his future goals, and how their union (and child) impedes his plans.

I reference The Flash with Wally West. Let me again iterate that DC screwed Wally over HARD. Harder than Spider-Man. Killing his kids off. Erasing his marriage. Trying to do a story that turned him into an actual serial murderer who snapped from the losses, lost control of his powers, and ended up killing other heroes and some of his best friends, and then panicking and blaming it on innocent people to elude responsibility. How the HECK do you come back from THAT?

But Jeremy Adams and co. went in with a mission and told a story that didn't avoid these awful stories. They went back to the beginning - literally - with Wally ready to quit and took him through the history of The Flash. Every high, every low. Through time and space. And they reframed the mistakes - sometimes through retcons that shifted the blame to outside influences he wasn't aware of at the time - and re-established his relationships, bit by bit. He found his kids. His wife remembered their past. Wally found redemption and vindication within the hero community. By the end of the story, Wally is BACK. He's got his marriage. He's got his kids. He's got his reputation. And he's healthier, stronger, and better than he had EVER been before.

But they didn't do that by avoid the elephants in the room (multiple elephants). The writers respected such a beautiful, messy, damaged, but heroic history to tap into all the elements that make readers LOVE him. That made readers love him and his wife Linda. That made readers love him as a father and husband. As friends and family.

Spider-Man needs THAT. To avoid One More Day - or to ignore its damage - is the coward's way out. It would be the writing of lesser writers.

Confront it head-on. Boldly. With confident, direction, and purpose. FIX SPIDER-MAN and get back on track.

I don't trust the current crew to have the ability or will to do this, but I know writers like Adams exist that can make it happen. And that's what I'll forever advocate for.

The Flash got this. The proof is there that it can work. That it did work. There is zero reason Spider-Man can't make the comeback we all wish he could make.

[blank]

Or, just keep all of it. A Slott created character showing up in a Spider-Man book in 10 years time would not be the end of the world.

Personally if they were to just retcon OMD rather than actually dealing with the underlying issues, I think they should approach in a similar way to that of Rebirth Superman in which they merge the Peter of the modern 616 with himself pre OMD , while modifying the history of Spider-Man in the 616 to bring the marriage between MJ and him into modern comics, but I also don't think they should use multiple separations between the two to explain Superior Spider-Man(personally I think a clone would make more sense, so no more rapey Otto-Spider-man) or to retain the inane love interests of post-OMD Spider-Man or MJ (while I think some of the characters should still exist, but a vast majority of which are complete unnecessary or are just stupid such as Paul Rabin).

[Daibhidh]

And other elements, like Parker Industries, also suffered from clear temporary status thanks to editorial, so they’re not exactly a “threat” to an anti-OMD resurgence.

The problem with Parker Industries is that for people who don't know Peter personally that should be what they know about him. People who meet Peter for the first time should know of him as the guy who was once the next big thing and then went bust. And that's not a good thing for the character. Spencer, because he doesn't pretend things never happened, has a couple of Peter's fellow postgraduate students bring it up and it colours the way he interacts with them in a way that the story and character can do without.
Peter should be anonymous to people who aren't interested in either photography or postgraduate scientific research or the personal lives of up-and-coming actors.

[Daibhidh]

The basic problem with undoing OMD by having Peter and Mary Jane finding out about it is that the storytelling outcome doesn't match the likely psychological outcome.
From a storytelling point of view, the only fitting outcome is that they get together and get married again. But from a psychological outcome, finding out that you're actually divorced rather than just split up wouldn't actually change anything - if anything it might make you question the relationship a bit more. The whole thing is really rather unsatisfactory. It's designed under the impression that it would just draw a line under the marriage and everyone would move on and forgot about it.

[Spider-Tiger]

The basic problem with undoing OMD by having Peter and Mary Jane finding out about it is that the storytelling outcome doesn't match the likely psychological outcome.
From a storytelling point of view, the only fitting outcome is that they get together and get married again. But from a psychological outcome, finding out that you're actually divorced rather than just split up wouldn't actually change anything - if anything it might make you question the relationship a bit more. The whole thing is really rather unsatisfactory. It's designed under the impression that it would just draw a line under the marriage and everyone would move on and forgot about it.

But they didn't "divorce" per se. Their relationship didn't fail. It ended in a sacrifice with them proclaiming they would ultimately "find their way back to each other." So all it would necessarily require is them regaining their memories of the original timeline and realizing that they've been living in a falsified reality.

I think the best way to do it is to have them naturally reconsider marriage in the current timeline and then realizing that their reality and relationship has been tampered with by Mephisto. Spencer had the right idea. So it would just require getting them back to the place they were when he left.

[Lee]

In five years' time the post-marriage era will be as long as the marriage era.

I don't think the marriage is coming back in the next five years, and after that, who would it be brought back for?

[Xenon]

I think keeping stuff that is liked by some fans as canon is more important than timeline consistancy. Slott created plenty of characters that are still around and even if some of his concepts and story ideas are not currently being used, that doesn't mean they can't be resurrected and expanded upon in the future.

Opinions are going to vary. I value the timeline consistency a lot. I understand it can't be perfect, and I can get over that, but I'd like it to be as good as it can. And...again, I ust don't value anything that Slott did. What little that IS valuable could be brought back in, but honestly a lot of these people have been kind of irrelevent for a while now. Max, Anna Marconi, Lily Hollister, Michelle, Norah, Carlie, like I think the last time any of them were relevant to Spider-Man was when Carlie subbed for Peter on date night with Mary Jane. I think the one thing we would lose that I would mind would be Jonah's relationship being reset, but you can work that back in and, again, Jonah just isn't as relevant as he was before.

In any case, like I said before, I don't think it means much because I don't think Marvel is willing to erase that much from Spider-Man, let alone the rest of the universe. Adn that's mostly fine. There's a couple of things that probably should be erased, but that's almost a seperate question.

The problem with Parker Industries is that for people who don't know Peter personally that should be what they know about him. People who meet Peter for the first time should know of him as the guy who was once the next big thing and then went bust. And that's not a good thing for the character. Spencer, because he doesn't pretend things never happened, has a couple of Peter's fellow postgraduate students bring it up and it colours the way he interacts with them in a way that the story and character can do without.
Peter should be anonymous to people who aren't interested in either photography or postgraduate scientific research or the personal lives of up-and-coming actors.

This was always my issue with Parker Industries. Like you cant' put every genie back into the bottle. I think if Slott was a more careful writer you could have put Peter into a position where he had something like that but wasn't famous or actually rich, but Slott went almost full Tony Stark so it really should do more damage to him than it did.

The basic problem with undoing OMD by having Peter and Mary Jane finding out about it is that the storytelling outcome doesn't match the likely psychological outcome.
From a storytelling point of view, the only fitting outcome is that they get together and get married again. But from a psychological outcome, finding out that you're actually divorced rather than just split up wouldn't actually change anything - if anything it might make you question the relationship a bit more. The whole thing is really rather unsatisfactory. It's designed under the impression that it would just draw a line under the marriage and everyone would move on and forgot about it.

This is partially just a philosophical question. How important is marriage versus just a committed relationship. If we look at Dead Language, would the few defenders of DL feel differently if MJ had been married to Peter when she was separated from him? Because they were on the step before that and while most recognize it as a huge problem there are still defenders. I would say it does make a difference, because when you get married in the modern era there is this sense that you're making a lifelong commitment in a way you aren't when you just move in. Somewhat ironically, as it's become less important culturally to get married it somehow makes it more important in the sense that because it's so optional it's looked at as a bigger deal, at least from a writing perspective. The MEANING behind characters getting married instead of just living together is different.

In the case of OMD specifically, I think it's different in the sense that they need to confront their decision there and what it means for their relationship going forward. While obviously the decision they made there was with the belief they'd still get back together and doesn't quite tank it, Peter still needs to confront the issues that made him run from his responsibility and betray his wife. And MJ needs to confront this issue that could be explored further, which is that, somewhat ironically, she doesn't fully believe Peter truly wants her and isnt' willing to fight for herself and their relationship, at least not without outside encouragement. This is actually a recurring problem for her you COULD actually use to explain a lot of her post-OMD behavior. She still believe that she's Peter's runner up prize and not what he truly wants. She accepts this because she wants him, but when they struggle she's quick to "let him go" too quick. She did it during the first clone saga. She did it after she was kidnapped, she did it during OMD. Every time her attitude is that Peter is better off without her or that Peter would choose someone over her (of course, in the case of OMD she's right which is another problem with OMD). So I think there are still issues that would be cathartic for them to work through by making them remember OMD. You are right that it doesn't change much for future stories, but I think settling the past does have some impact.

In five years' time the post-marriage era will be as long as the marriage era.

I don't think the marriage is coming back in the next five years, and after that, who would it be brought back for?

This has always been a terrible argument. That a bad status quo has gone on for a long time is not a good reason to continue the bad status quo. That Sins Past stood for 17 years was not a good reason to leave it canon. And your fundamental argument doesn't even make sense. "You waited twenty years for it, so now who cares?" Like what? It's not going to get less deleterious for the story because it's been longer. It's not going to fix the romance subplots that don't work. It's not going to fix Peter being stuck while everyone around him gets older. OMD should be undone not because of some preference but because it's bad for the story. And it's quite obviously so. You gain nothing from it and it makes the book worse. WHy would you keep it? I mean, ther's literally no reason to keep it now, let alone after five more years of recycling the same status quo.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

This has always been a terrible argument. That a bad status quo has gone on for a long time is not a good reason to continue the bad status quo. That Sins Past stood for 17 years was not a good reason to leave it canon. And your fundamental argument doesn't even make sense. "You waited twenty years for it, so now who cares?" Like what? It's not going to get less deleterious for the story because it's been longer. It's not going to fix the romance subplots that don't work. It's not going to fix Peter being stuck while everyone around him gets older. OMD should be undone not because of some preference but because it's bad for the story. And it's quite obviously so. You gain nothing from it and it makes the book worse. WHy would you keep it? I mean, ther's literally no reason to keep it now, let alone after five more years of recycling the same status quo.

That argument is essentially Brevoort's argument from 2008 that new fans who don't care about the marriage will eventually surpass the new fans, but all evidence points to that not happening. It's not just the years, it's the mileage. New fans go back to pre-OMD continuity all the time. Runs like JMD and JMS' are "forever". And I'm not even factoring in the influence adaptations have when I say this.

Seriously. The backlash to OMD hasn't diminished at all. It's like it happened yesterday. Why would it all magically go away once we reach 2028? It's just wishful thinking on some people's part.