What are some character storylines or retcons that you just found...unnecessary?

[Ishmael]

Knowing the Phantom Stranger's actual origin as recounted in the New 52 is the one that comes to mind.

He works so much better when his backstory remains uncertain.

[Stanlos]

Knowing the Phantom Stranger's actual origin as recounted in the New 52 is the one that comes to mind.

He works so much better when his backstory remains uncertain.

Plus why on earth are they so bent on judeo christian lore being at the fore?

[Will Evans]

Knowing the Phantom Stranger's actual origin as recounted in the New 52 is the one that comes to mind.

He works so much better when his backstory remains uncertain.

I think it’s because characters like Phantom Stranger get a better shot at getting cross media adaptations If they have define origin stories.

[JThree]

Knowing the Phantom Stranger's actual origin as recounted in the New 52 is the one that comes to mind.

He works so much better when his backstory remains uncertain.

What happened in New 52 version? I remember the 80's Secret Origins special which had 4 different versions.

--jthree

[Nomads1]

How about Don Hall and Hank Hall better?

The character of Don was not well used, IMHO. He was always over-shadowed by Hawk, and there's only so many times making villains trip on themslves can be intresting. I think the Kesels handled Dawn much better, making her more proactive and getting a better handle of her powers and abilities. Plus, the whole star-crossed romance between the Master of Chaos and the Lord of Order, while, IMHO, a masterstroke in storytelling, get's a little creepy when you think that Don and Hank are brothers (also why Dawn and Holly don't work as well. However, I'd love to see an elseworld story of Don and Holly. The chemestry would be completely different).

Peace

[Ishmael]

What happened in New 52 version? I remember the 80's Secret Origins special which had 4 different versions.

--jthree

They narrowed it down to one and completely did away with any mystery about who he is.

Completely subverted the whole "Phantom" part of the character.

[dkrook]

Reconning Victor from where David Walker run was taking him to. Stop trying to hinder Cyborg's evolution to a character that could 10x cooler than the mess he looks like now. Even the new Titans books looks to keep him status quo tin man! Editorial continues to sabotage The Cyborg character.

[Sutekh]

What happened in New 52 version? I remember the 80's Secret Origins special which had 4 different versions.

--jthree

While that was true, the next time I saw him appear it was in Morrison's Swamp Thing 'Marriage of Heaven and Hell' arc, where it was pretty clear that he was going with the 'fallen (arch)angel' origin story, which was one of the better ones, IMO, and seems like Morrison kind of 'canonized' as his origin. (The 'last survivor of the dying previous universe' version had already been done, and, done better, IMO, by Galactus, over at Marvel, and I honestly don't even remember the other ones...)

[Tzigone]

The character of Don was not well used, IMHO. He was always over-shadowed by Hawk, and there's only so many times making villains trip on themslves can be intresting. I think the Kesels handled Dawn much better, making her more proactive and getting a better handle of her powers and abilities. Plus, the whole star-crossed romance between the Master of Chaos and the Lord of Order, while, IMHO, a masterstroke in storytelling, get's a little creepy when you think that Don and Hank are brothers (also why Dawn and Holly don't work as well. However, I'd love to see an elseworld story of Don and Holly. The chemestry would be completely different).

Peace

I never liked the star-crossed romance angle at all. Didn't want a Lord of Order or Chaos involved, either.

I did enjoy the characters and non-plot-line stuff of the '80s Hawk and Dove a lot, though. Actual mytharc and villains...not my thing. Kinda felt that way about Impulse, too.

The thing about Hank and Don is the premise that that Hank and Dawn do not have. They were young, and kinda ignorant, and needed to learn (which makes sense for teenagers). It's interesting to me, though it is a sort of story that, to me, needs a beginning, middle, and end, which comics are not good at.

They started with the idea that both Hank and Don had a lot to learn (I'm talking back in their series, not the Teen Titans bit, which didn't do that well by them, IMO). They did have genuinely different values, but they also had a very "sports-team" like mentality to every political issue they faced. Really, to every issue they faced. They often seemed to care at least as much about "winning" against the other as they did about the actual issues. Today I'd cast them as one wanting to bask in MAGA outrage, while the other wants to bathe in librul tears. The is part of their identities - not just that they hold particular beliefs, but that they are opposed to each other, and each loves to see the other lose and to gloat over his own victory. Irwin calls them on it repeatedly (not that he doesn't have some issues, himself) - they repeat slogans and hold passionate opinions without being able to explain why they think those opinions are correct. They aren't the opinions they developed through deep thought or research on the actual results of the solutions they propose - they're political identity. If you actually asked them if they'd ever looked into studies on whether X worked - whatever X was - each would probably give you a blank look.

I feel like they are both the type, in their earlier appearances, to go along with what "their" crowd does. Like, there's no real reason the "low-tax" and "pro-military" groups should be correlated. But in the US, they are. So, Hank would then, IMO, absorb that opinion on taxes because it's shared by others who like a big, strong, military or military intervention or whatnot. And Don would do the same on his side. And both would likely take up an opposing position to whatever his brother did. That's something they needed to grow out of, though.


I agree Dawn has the advantage of being a more well-rounded and versatile character for long-term use than Don. I just think Hank is just as one-note and ill-suited to long term use as Don. At least, for both of them, that remains the case unless they learn and grow and change (which they should absolutely do - Hank acting the same at 25 as he did at 16/17 would, to me, result in a poor hero and a one-note character). I'm just not sure to what degree they remain a Hawk and a Dove as they change and get more nuanced and developed opinions. I liked Dawn in the 1980s series, but I have to say that I didn't find anything about her particularly "dove-ish" - she didn't hold any of the traits I associate with the use of the term in contrast to the term "hawk." I don't get any sense of why she has this role, as I did with Hank and Don. Then when you factor in that (to me) she just wasn't on the same type of journey to improvement - didn't need to learn the same way, since she was already reasonable - there was less of a sort of balance between the characters to me with them than with Hank and Don.

But since Hank and Don absolutely refuse to learn from either other or stop trying to prove the other wrong all the time, there's certainly potential in the idea of each being willing to learn from someone else. Like the original "voice" just throws their hands up and says "fine, you can have another teacher" and we get Dawn, who Hank might actually eventually learn from some day. Even if Don were alive, I don't know Holly enough to know if he could ever learn from her.

[Cap808]

The character of Don was not well used, IMHO. He was always over-shadowed by Hawk, and there's only so many times making villains trip on themslves can be intresting. I think the Kesels handled Dawn much better, making her more proactive and getting a better handle of her powers and abilities. Plus, the whole star-crossed romance between the Master of Chaos and the Lord of Order, while, IMHO, a masterstroke in storytelling, get's a little creepy when you think that Don and Hank are brothers (also why Dawn and Holly don't work as well. However, I'd love to see an elseworld story of Don and Holly. The chemestry would be completely different).

Peace

On point. And I would love to see and Elseworld story with Don and Holly!