Were Harley and Ivy a thing pre-Flashpoint

[Slimybug]

I remember hearing people shipping them back in the day (before "shipping" was a term), and speculating on it, but I don't think they ever actually outright said it in the comic books until post-2011, amiright?

[Frontier]

I think they were "Gal Pals" but they weren't One True Love level like they're written now.

[Arctic Cyclist]

I remember hearing people shipping them back in the day (before "shipping" was a term), and speculating on it, but I don't think they ever actually outright said it in the comic books until post-2011, amiright?

Yes. If you were to sit down and do a critical read of Ivy, you would find that the creation of her relationship with Harley is what takes her from a serial sex offender, murderer, and pedophile (remember the Robinson Park kids? Remember that they all ended up with an STI of sorts from Ivy’s “touching” them and were being hunted by the government in one of the Hush stories?) to an ecoterrorist and occasional hero.

It started in Batman: TAS, but the comics is where it really develops to the point where Ivy is as crucial to Harley’s character as the Joker by 2005ish.

[exile001]

There is definite queer coding right back in Batman Adventures and Harley's first series (and even the Harley & Ivy TAS episode), humorously enough, due to the male writers/artists fantasising.

It's kind of funny that something pretty pathetic (and a little toxic) from the 90's-00's wound up being something wholesome and progressive (for comics) decades later after both had been massively fleshed out as characters.

[witchboy]

It wasn't official but Bruce Timm was doing queerbaiting Harley and Ivy eroticized art all the way back to the 90s.

[Frontier]

There is definite queer coding right back in Batman Adventures and Harley's first series (and even the Harley & Ivy TAS episode), humorously enough, due to the male writers/artists fantasising.

It's kind of funny that something pretty pathetic (and a little toxic) from the 90's-00's wound up being something wholesome and progressive (for comics) decades later after both had been massively fleshed out as characters.

Well, definitely toxic at least in the sense that Ivy was the one in charge and Harley kind of followed her around the same way she did in the Joker. Now sometimes it feels like Ivy is just "Harley's girlfriend."

[Triniking1234]

Harley wasn't as pushed comics wise pre-Flashpoint and Ivy was a straight-up villain.

[Confuzzled]

Harley wasn't as pushed comics wise pre-Flashpoint and Ivy was a straight-up villain.

Ivy started getting a sympathetic push from 1997 with her one-shot by John Francis Moore, followed by No Man's Land where she was written as even more heroic than she is right now.

As for if Harley & Ivy were canon pre-Flashpoint, the closest in mainstream comics was this at the end of Gotham City Sirens



The comics in the BTAS verse of course had been more "boundary pushing" (in lack of better phrasing )

[exile001]

Well, definitely toxic at least in the sense that Ivy was the one in charge and Harley kind of followed her around the same way she did in the Joker. Now sometimes it feels like Ivy is just "Harley's girlfriend."

Nah, it's toxic men treating female characters like sex objects and wish fulfilment.

I never got Ivy as a replacement for Joker, more that Ivy showed Harley she could be something without Joker*. They palled around, with typical sexy undertones because 90's-00's, but a friendship was built before our eyes. Repeatedly and consistently they came back together in one media or another and they were synonymous long before the New 52.

And that's waaaaaay more than Joker/Harley has ever got.

*Which is pretty funny as Ivy was almost nothing before Harley. She was a C-tier villain who rarely appeared and when she did it was constantly reusing the same gimmick over and over (with the even rarer exception).

Ivy has always had potential, even a few good stories, but Harley is the reason she's now a beloved mainstay. Which reminds me I do need to check out Ivy's current book.

[Frontier]

Nah, it's toxic men treating female characters like sex objects and wish fulfilment.

I never got Ivy as a replacement for Joker, more that Ivy showed Harley she could be something without Joker*. They palled around, with typical sexy undertones because 90's-00's, but a friendship was built before our eyes. Repeatedly and consistently they came back together in one media or another and they were synonymous long before the New 52.

And that's waaaaaay more than Joker/Harley has ever got.

*Which is pretty funny as Ivy was almost nothing before Harley. She was a C-tier villain who rarely appeared and when she did it was constantly reusing the same gimmick over and over (with the even rarer exception).

Ivy has always had potential, even a few good stories, but Harley is the reason she's now a beloved mainstay. Which reminds me I do need to check out Ivy's current book.

I definitely think it was a different dynamic just one where Ivy was usually in charge and Harley basically follower her lead, since she's pretty much peak Henchgirl.

I I think B:TAS in general is the reason Ivy is a mainsty and not just the relationship with Harley. It was just something that ended up working for both characters when it was introduced.

[Confuzzled]

*Which is pretty funny as Ivy was almost nothing before Harley. She was a C-tier villain who rarely appeared and when she did it was constantly reusing the same gimmick over and over (with the even rarer exception).

Ivy has always had potential, even a few good stories, but Harley is the reason she's now a beloved mainstay. Which reminds me I do need to check out Ivy's current book.

Bolded part is false. She started off as a flora-themed camp villain in the vein of the 60's Batman show because they wanted more villainesses to capitalize on Julie Newmar/Eartha Kitt's success and even her debut story was juicy with her sowing seeds of discord like a mischievous Pan-like character. In her second story by Gerry Conway, she was revealed to be a victim of her predatory college professor and she had exacted her revenge on him by turning him into a mindless plant monster henchman. Those first two stories couldn't have been more different from each other.

And as Frontier said, BTAS had already put her on the map before Harley came into the picture. Arguably Two-Face, Freeze and Ivy were the biggest breakouts from the show initially because they were the ones who were picked to be in the 90's movies that followed, despite having not appeared in the 60's show (or in Freeze's case, making just 1 appearance).