X-Men #21 Spoilers and Review Thread

[jwatson]

Yas! i was stunned. Like i know that's not how jean is but it felt like a very cuckcold moment to me. like i am denying you your gifts cause i can so you can look me in the eye. Well damn i thought the mind was the most intimate thing for a telepath. This was trying to show what Logan brings to the situation i guess.

And to be clear i know what Duggan was going for at least i think. The only time Jean has held Scott's powers back has been in love and affection so i get maybe this was done to prove a point on how serious she was but given where it happened and how it always was presented in the past it didn't work for me. I felt the shock Scott must have felt as Jean took what was an intimate moment, one i am sure Scott always felt safe in because that was how it has been presented and to use it in that way was unnecessary. To i guess prove a point. So logically i see what was gone for and i don't think jean was a bully but scott was violated here, and so was the relationship. And again, he right.

Also which is it? is jean phoenix or not? is she responsible for what phoenix did or not because while she calling out others for genocide she sure didn't say "if i could live with what i did as phoenix" when it came to Broo at the end.

[Agatha's Ghost]

So Duggan could have had everyone pretty much be on board with lethal force against the currently aggressive Brood. Broo would show he could exert control on a handful of them still. These non-hostile Brood would turn against the others. The team could be convinced those ones were worth saving. This could have strongly backed up by Jean and won by her argument. Then there is some action showing the heroic deed and the resolution.

Even if this is going somewhere there are better ways to add tension and strife then this.

No one could act rationally after what Cyclops had seen them do to his father and those refugees. And Jean had suffered a blow to her ego after Nightmare pinned the whole situation on her.

[Havok83]

No one could act rationally after what Cyclops had seen them do to his father and those refugees. And Jean had suffered a blow to her ego after Nightmare pinned the whole situation on her.

This wasnt about ego. Jean's point of view is very much informed by what she did as Dark Phoenix. A recurring theme of hers throughout Duggan's run has been atonement for that. She commited a genocide and she's had to live with the ramifications of that. Very few can actually relate to her on that level and Scott most definitely cant. It might be a bit shortsighted of her to think that she can save the Brood, but that doesnt mean she shouldnt try. Thats the angle she is coming at this with

And to be clear i know what Duggan was going for at least i think. The only time Jean has held Scott's powers back has been in love and affection so i get maybe this was done to prove a point on how serious she was but given where it happened and how it always was presented in the past it didn't work for me. I felt the shock Scott must have felt as Jean took what was an intimate moment. One i am sure Scott always felt safe in because that was presented in used it in a way the was unnecessary. To i guess prove a point. So logically i see what was gone for and i don't think jean was a bully but scott was violated here, and so was the relationship. And again, he right.

Also which is it? is jean phoenix or not? is she responsible for what phoenix did or not because while she calling out others for genocide she sure didn't say "if i could live with what i did as phoenix" when it came to Broo at the end.

They're one and the same and I dont think she needs to explicitly say she did a genocide everytime she talks about that. Its understood at this point. Cyclops called her out on the Cordycep story which is a direct reference to her trying to atone for the genocide she commited as Dark Phoenix. To me that was Duggan acknowledging it considering he wrote it

Everything was tied up way too fast for me in my opinion, Forge and M ending their mission to Nowhere with them essentially saying oh wow that was weird let's go back, Nightmare and Jean was wrapped up way too quickly and the brood just all leaving to Jupiter. The issue was fine but I seem to have expected a lot more from Duggan and this issue.

Also Jean using human basically as a curse word is very hilarious.

While I liked seeing Monet, I dont know what the point of that excursion was

Yeah, they did their best to paint Bishop in a bad light here. Plus, the plan is just ridiculous and wouldn't work. They need to keep distancing him from the character assassination of the trying to kill Hope years, not keep reminding people of his mindset there. Hate them treating Bishop like this.

That simply isnt feasible. They have a backlog that goes years in order to bring back all the dead mutants and after JD, humans have cut into. To now focus on creating husk for Brood, just isnt a viable solution and its a waste of The Five's resources. Besides the hosts arent needed for the Brood to live; its so they can reproduce so the concept is different than Proteus, whom effectively dies without a body. If they dont have a host to infect, than eventually the species will go extinct

[Phoenixx9]

Jean the Bully, physically assaulting Cyclops to make a point.

I loved it!

[Agatha's Ghost]

This wasnt about ego. Jean's point of view is very much informed by what she did as Dark Phoenix. A recurring theme of hers throughout Duggan's run has been atonement for that. She commited a genocide and she's had to live with the ramifications of that. Very few can actually relate to her on that level and Scott most definitely cant. It might be a bit shortsighted of her to think that she can save the Brood, but that doesnt mean she shouldnt try. Thats the angle she is coming at this with



They're one and the same and I dont think she needs to explicitly say she did a genocide everytime she talks about that. Its understood at this point. Cyclops called her out on the Cordycep story which is a direct reference to her trying to atone for the genocide she commited as Dark Phoenix. To me that was Duggan acknowledging it considering he wrote it



While I liked seeing Monet, I dont know what the point of that excursion was

100% about ego and about being put in her place by Nightmare.

[Gray Lensman]

This wasnt about ego. Jean's point of view is very much informed by what she did as Dark Phoenix. A recurring theme of hers throughout Duggan's run has been atonement for that. She commited a genocide and she's had to live with the ramifications of that. Very few can actually relate to her on that level and Scott most definitely cant. It might be a bit shortsighted of her to think that she can save the Brood, but that doesnt mean she shouldnt try. Thats the angle she is coming at this with



They're one and the same and I dont think she needs to explicitly say she did a genocide everytime she talks about that. Its understood at this point. Cyclops called her out on the Cordycep story which is a direct reference to her trying to atone for the genocide she commited as Dark Phoenix. To me that was Duggan acknowledging it considering he wrote it

I think that goes both ways, at least to a point. Scott had been a host for the Brood himself at one time.

Personally, I think they both have valid points. While Broo can control them, what happens if he dies? Do they revert back to being the Flood/Tyrranids/Vord/Daleks? - an organic genocide wave that is a threat to all sentient life? But what is worse, pulling the trigger or letting them do it? As far as I'm concerned, that isn't exactly an easy answer.

[Rift]

You kill the bugs

[Havok83]

I think that goes both ways, at least to a point. Scott had been a host for the Brood himself at one time.

Personally, I think they both have valid points. While Broo can control them, what happens if he dies? Do they revert back to being the Flood/Tyrranids/Vord/Daleks? - an organic genocide wave that is a threat to all sentient life? But what is worse, pulling the trigger or letting them do it? As far as I'm concerned, that isn't exactly an easy answer.

I guess my thing is why the change now? The Brood have done what they've done since we were introduced to them way back in the early 80s. I dont think anyone has tried to genocide the entire species or even suggested it but now all of a sudden thats on the table? Why wouldnt the X-men of past years not be guilty of negligence for not trying to exterminate them all before? Wouldnt a better solution be to try and find a way to sterilize them? I mean eventually they'd go extinct but that seems more humane then just murdering them all

[jwatson]

This wasnt about ego. Jean's point of view is very much informed by what she did as Dark Phoenix. A recurring theme of hers throughout Duggan's run has been atonement for that. She commited a genocide and she's had to live with the ramifications of that. Very few can actually relate to her on that level and Scott most definitely cant. It might be a bit shortsighted of her to think that she can save the Brood, but that doesnt mean she shouldnt try. Thats the angle she is coming at this with



They're one and the same and I dont think she needs to explicitly say she did a genocide everytime she talks about that. Its understood at this point. Cyclops called her out on the Cordycep story which is a direct reference to her trying to atone for the genocide she commited as Dark Phoenix. To me that was Duggan acknowledging it considering he wrote it



While I liked seeing Monet, I dont know what the point of that excursion was



That simply isnt feasible. They have a backlog that goes years in order to bring back all the dead mutants and after JD, humans have cut into. To now focus on creating husk for Brood, just isnt a viable solution and its a waste of The Five's resources. Besides the hosts arent needed for the Brood to live; its so they can reproduce so the concept is different than Proteus, whom effectively dies without a body. If they dont have a host to infect, than eventually the species will go extinct

No you don't have to do it everytime but if you wanted her to claim a mantle or responsibility now was the time. You mention judgement over and over and the phoenix, dropping all those crumbs on what she was actually judged for in an issue all about genocide for the most part and the responsibility people hold and in the final moment you don't have jean actually show the accumulation of that responsibility in the final scene and instead have her try to skate by saying if she can live with what the phoenix did rather than take responsibility and show she is connected to it over all space and it's beginning and end and that embracement by simply adding the word i to make it definitive and clear. Well okay, ya'll have that. I was starting to feel it but this issue for sure shows me Duggan going through the motions with Jean and i kind of don't blame him. I'd dangle them keys like a cat owner too i guess. If it feels like it works to the most vocal.

[Agatha's Ghost]

What I find bizarre is that Jean is practically begging Nightmare to keep arching her. Maybe if she stopped yapping at him, he’d forget her. But she had to slap his face and now that he’s slapped her back, she’s keeping up the big talk, begging him to become her nemesis.

[Gray Lensman]

I guess my thing is why the change now? The Brood have done what they've done since we were introduced to them way back in the early 80s. I dont think anyone has tried to genocide the entire species or even suggested it but now all of a sudden thats on the table? Why wouldnt the X-men of past years not be guilty of negligence for not trying to exterminate them all before? Wouldnt a better solution be to try and find a way to sterilize them? I mean eventually they'd go extinct but that seems more humane then just murdering them all

Did they have the ability before? Until Hickman, the X-Men had been preoccupied with not being wiped out themselves for a couple of decades at least. Plus the concept of mutant circuits is pretty new, which, combined with the also new resurrection protocols, is how such a plan would go off.

Plus there is also the concept of nobody bothered to write them is such a fashion as to ask such hard questions before now. They were basically space zombies before - they grab you and you become one of them, seeking only to consume and spread the infection, with a few stories here and there going any deeper, most of which seem to be mostly forgotten by their next appearance.

[Gray Lensman]

What I find bizarre is that Jean is practically begging Nightmare to keep arching her. Maybe if she stopped yapping at him, he’d forget her. But she had to slap his face and now that he’s slapped her back, she’s keeping up the big talk, begging him to become her nemesis.

Out of universe, having a great nemesis can elevate a character to new heights.

[Agatha's Ghost]

Out of universe, having a great nemesis can elevate a character to new heights.

I don’t think they bring much to one another. Doesn’t he usually fight Sleepwalker?

[JB]

I think that goes both ways, at least to a point. Scott had been a host for the Brood himself at one time.

Personally, I think they both have valid points. While Broo can control them, what happens if he dies? Do they revert back to being the Flood/Tyrranids/Vord/Daleks? - an organic genocide wave that is a threat to all sentient life? But what is worse, pulling the trigger or letting them do it? As far as I'm concerned, that isn't exactly an easy answer.

Agreed, and the recent evolution of the Brood makes the answer even harder. Over in Captain Marvel they took Binary prisoner and tortured her for research of her powers. Then they captured Rogue and tortured her for research as well. It's becoming more than just feeding with them, they're trying to find ways to become more powerful and to manipulate powersets.

[Agent Grayson]

Man, I did not enjoy this issue.

The whole Krakoan era has seen many instances of plot driving characterisation, but they’re were some particularly egregious examples here: Bishop wanting to create a weaponised version of Wanda to commit genocide; Cyclops arguing vehemently to wipe out an entire race, even going as far as to yell it at a young mutant member of that same race - someone who is living, breathing proof that the Brood can be different; Jean using the word ‘human’ as an insult (so much for the weird supremacist undertones of early Krakoa being behind us); Jean and Cyclops forgetting how to communicate for some forced drama.

Really bad stuff in the midst of an issue where not a lot actually happened. Nightmare, supposedly the threat behind all the chaos, is hand waved away and then…what? An argument and a resolution (?) to a side plot that came out of nowhere and seemed to serve no purpose but to conveniently slot into the end of the main storyline.

The only good part was Synch making the difficult decision to sacrifice the infected.

I’m 50/50 as to whether or not I’ll be back for the next issue.